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Noyes Notebook: Shuhei Nakamoto Interview

michaelm said:
Stoner himself would seem to disagree, he has said outright that lack of support (at a level above ducati corse itself) during his 2009 travails was a major contributor to his disillusionment with gp racing, and he presumably wasn't impressed by them pursuing jorge and offering him double the money.
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No you misinterpret Stoner.



You all seem to think that Ducati has an unlimited budget. Stoner has not said that they did not make all the effort that they could, but indeed that there was only so much such a small concern/brand can do, hence the longing to go to Honda where he saw that resources were more plentiful. Stoner left with dignity for all parties left somewhat intact.
 
BarryMachine said:
No you misinterpret Stoner.



You all seem to think that Ducati has an unlimited budget. Stoner has not said that they did not make all the effort that they could, but indeed that there was only so much such a small concern/brand can do, hence the longing to go to Honda where he saw that resources were more plentiful. Stoner left with dignity for all parties left somewhat intact.
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I wasn't referring to ducati's financial and engineering resources concerning which his view is probably as you say, but rather to the attitude of ducati's sponsors marlboro, or their front man anyway, and senior ducati management (not ducati corse, the racing operation, but levels above this) to his illness in 2009; he has been fairly vocal about his disappointment concerning that. Sure riding for hrc gives you a better chance, and I think he also always wanted to emulate mick doohan.
 
I do remember an early interview (start of 2007 season), where Stoner said inter alia he had been pulled aside by Loris and told just to finish, not throw it down trying to win, and also, they only ever expected to aim for a top 3 in the championship as Honda and Yamaha owned those spots (paraphrased). The reason was the Ducati factory could never challenge the engineering might of the likes of Honda.



As is said here somewhere it was only after 3 from 4 wins that people realised he was looking at a world championship and Ducati began treating him as the lead rider.





Apropos a recent comment of mine. My own theory is that in order to throw Ducati off the talk of rule changes and rev ceilings as well as tyre rules was designed to stress and stretch their effort.



In 2007 Michelin occupied 5 of the first 6 places in motogp, just not the first position. No one would have questioned Michelin but for the success of Stoner quite separate to anyone else who ever rode a Ducati and/or on Bridgestones. In 2006 Bridgestone were the less preferred option, as they were at race one in 2007. I think the notion that Michelin were not up to it simply means that Michelin didn't win this one.



I still believe that the two smaller Japanese factories (Suzuki and Kawasaki) would have seen the efforts to throw Ducati off and at that time this would have reinforced significantly their respective decisions to pull out on financial grounds. If they did manage a championship then the unsettling of the governance of the sport would throw them off, or see any advantage they may have eked out with a separate tyre manufacturer simply given away.



In this way Dorna gave away Ducati's development work with Bridgestone, something that didn't interest anyone (until 2007) and was viewed (as Michelins SNS tyres were) as somewhat proprietary. In 2008 all the work done by the Bridgestone teams (and that was part of their lesser budgets) was simply handed over, prototype racing took its biggest hit there and then.



That is, the governing body was prepared to bare the secrets of the smaller concerns while protecting those of the big two.



How Caramelo never got some teeth knocked out amazes me.
 
Andy Roo said:
In 2007 Michelin occupied 5 of the first 6 places in motogp, just not the first position. No one would have questioned Michelin but for the success of Stoner quite separate to anyone else who ever rode a Ducati and/or on Bridgestones. In 2006 Bridgestone were the less preferred option, as they were at race one in 2007. I think the notion that Michelin were not up to it simply means that Michelin didn't win this one.
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Amen.
 
michaelm said:
No doubt strong backing from american honda played a role with hayden. Winning a championship rather justified him as I

am sure you don't disagree.



I don't know what gives with spies. He is perhaps somebody who whilst very talented is also sensitive and needs things in the right alignment, like stoner to an extent as well. His team this year just seems to be grossly incompetent though as I guess you are saying.
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I do agree, he did justify his seat, still does IMO.



Spies has had a bad year but I'm convinced they are running Yamaha as a one bike team. I've seen the same circumstance before, one teammate has all the luck & is consistent as you like. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, now that would be hypocritical as a Senna & Rossi fan, in fact I believe it's the way to go; however it does both nurture & magnify talent at the same time. Ben, like Berger or Edwards, has found the flipside.



& It's not a matter of deliberately ....... Ben over, it's just a matter of Lorenzo getting the best parts.
 
Andy Roo said:
Dude, it is strange and cosmic here tonight, distant fireworks ring the celebration of the sheep shaggers cup, the air feels like is has a clarity beyond real, an unearthly pall hangs, not as hell and the baying of Cerebus is muted, lo, but the tingling path to redemption.



And three wise men, Stoner Hayden and Lorenzo.



A fourth choice rider, an appeal to far flung reaches of the empire and a young serf. Yet the courtiers in their palaces of gold surrounded by willing handmaidens (and Uccio) didn't see this, the seers comfortable in the dominance of the status quo only told of future glory to the King and his ilk.



But they came from afar (except Jorge)



And brought us gifts.



Forget Herod's herald and the tomes of Roman Emperors.



Their travels were not expected to amount to anything, and yet they gave us 5 unexpected world championships and revealed the stench of Romes depravity.



Rejoice in these gifts, for in their teachings is the truth



(Jive arse Turkey
<
)
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Woe to you oh earth & sea, because the devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows that time os short. Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, it's number is 46.



"All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed,"
 
Andy Roo said:
In 2007 Michelin occupied 5 of the first 6 places in motogp, just not the first position. No one would have questioned Michelin but for the success of Stoner quite separate to anyone else who ever rode a Ducati and/or on Bridgestones. In 2006 Bridgestone were the less preferred option, as they were at race one in 2007. I think the notion that Michelin were not up to it simply means that Michelin didn't win this one.
Click to expand...



I think you need to check the record books again.



1. Stoner - Ducati/Bridgestone

2. Pedrosa - Honda/Michelin

3. Rossi - Yamaha/Michelin

4. Hopkins - Suzuki/Bridgestone

5. Melandri - Honda/Bridgestone

6. Vermeulen - Suzuki/Bridgestone



4 or the top 6 slots were occupied by Bridgestone runners. Going into the 2007 season, the hype surrounding the new Bridgestones was substantial and Gresini obtained Honda's blessing to switch tire suppliers.



The 21L formula turned the sport on its ear. Prior to 2007, cornering was just time wasted by not accelerating or decelerating (not technically correct, but you know what I mean). Yamaha proved this theory in the modern era with the M1, which was almost unbeatable in its second year of development, until the advent of strict fuel capacity restrictions. HRC were not keen on point-and-shoot, which is part of the reason Rossi left them behind, and why he was so delighted to kick HRC ....



When the 21L-800cc formula was introduced, potential acceleration and deceleration were drastically reduced. Deceleration wasted fuel, and acceleration was reduced by the fuel capacity, smaller displacement, and narrower powerband. Carrying cornerspeed was critical b/c it decreased lap times and saved braking waste which could be converted to acceleration potential. This formula could be described as the anti-Rossi, anti-Yamaha formula, and Rossi certainly felt this way. Lashing out about the bikes and the tires, and demonstrating a genuine sense of relief when he beat back the evil empire (HRC) to win in 2008 and 2009. This is another reason I don't subscribe to the Rossi-gets-whatever-he-wants-theory. He certainly never wanted 21L-800cc or tight fuel restrictions in 2006 b/c they didn't mesh with his development work on the M1.



The tire design strategy for 21L is quite straight forward. Make the profiles more extreme to enlarge the contact patch at full lean, thus softer coumpounds. But when lateral acceleration rises, the tire carcass tends to deform under cornering stress which often causes front end loss. Bridgestone made the carcass very hard. The stiff Bridgestone carcasses were to the liking of Casey Stoner. Hopkins was also notorious for overriding the front tire, and I think he would have gotten progressively better with the new Bridgestones or the 2010 control tire. Alas, he made the ill-fated jump to Kawasaki, a team that did not adapt well to the new 2008 tires. Suzuki didn't do much better.
 
I'd like to thank Goaty again for keeping this forum going. U sir are a great service. (i mean this sincerely, where have all the bops gone? Yes, they'll be back next year, but u sir have stuck it out. And for that, much respect).



Lex, u make some good points. But i still think Andy's point still stands. I've being arguing for years, eliminate Casey from the record books and we have a very diff MotoGP historical narrative. I believe the tire war may have still been with us, and perhaps even the "smaller" Jap brands. Its Caseys success, and yes, it was 'surprising and unexpected' that led the whole of the sport to put tires under a microscope. No Stoner: Rossi wins 07, 06 remains an off script fluke, normal status resumed. No need to eliminate Michelin for Bridgestone which led then changes to the tire to suit VR. All of this C change (pardon the pun) happened bcuz of Caseys success, which given 06, then 07, was simply unacceptable to the league (apart from Carmelos love affair with VR) the demands of the casual fan AKA Yellow Army, this had to be corrected in the most expedited and dramatic fashion.
 
Jumkie said:
All of this C change (pardon the pun) happened bcuz of Caseys success, which given 06, then 07, was simply unacceptable to the league (apart from Carmelos love affair with VR) the demands of the casual fan AKA Yellow Army, this had to be corrected in the most expedited and dramatic fashion.
Click to expand...



It was Casey's performance and the circumstances surrounding his performance that were troubling, not Casey's success.



The bikes were pulling over 2g's. The circuit runoff was inadequate. Top speeds were not lower. Tire costs were not lower. Engine costs were about to explode. On the outside, the sport was quite unpredictable and relatively fun to watch (in retrospect), but the fundamentals of the sport (cost curve, etc.) were completely destabilized. The manufacturers had just collectively spent 9-figures to convert GP to 800cc, but they had only created even more incentives for them to spend money. Stoner was just the messenger who revealed the severity of the problem b/c he was the guy who could utilize the Ducati-Bridgestone strategy to the maximum.



The problem was that the underlying cost curve had been completely destabilized by linking cornerspeed and engine performance. For the first time in the history of GP, going faster through the corners actually made the engine work better. This was an extraordinary thing to do to the MotoGP formula, but the MSMA were asleep at the switch.



The key to fixing GP at that moment was to disassociate cornerspeed with engine performance. The MSMA could have imposed a 76mm x 44mm 4-cylinder formula. The revs would have been in the 18,500rpm range, the long stroke would have been more efficient and more rider-friendly, and the teams with the best friction technology would have exploited a small advantage. The tires wouldn't have had a compounding effect on performance. Unfortunately, the MSMA went to half measures with the proposed (probably real) 19,000rpm rev limit which was designed to stop qualifying grenades and put a tiny kink in the cost curve.



Since the MSMA didn't budge on engine performance, the tire companies were basically forced to draft new regs to slow down the tires. Keep in mind that the incentives for more cornerspeed were just as strong as they were in 2007. Naturally, the 2008 tire rules failed to accomplish anything other than discouraging Michelin and increasing tire costs.



To this day, they still have not addressed the lucrative performance benefits of cornerspeed, they have merely killed tire development, which was completely necessary given the situation. Rossi was the benefactor, but neither he nor Casey were the cause. The system promotes what the system promotes. The MSMA didn't want to exercise pragmatism so we got a control tire instead. After the control tire, the electronics became the new problem. For the first time in the history of GP, the electronics were not only necessary to get the power to the ground, but they also increased horsepower over the race distance.



Have the MSMA fixed this problem?



This is like a nightmare that never ends. If they had bore limited the 800s to 76mm that would have changed the course of MotoGP by disassociating tire performance, engine performance, and electronic performance. Removing Casey doesn't relieve the underlying systemic issues.
 
Goatboy said:
Woe to you oh earth & sea, because the devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows that time os short. Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, it's number is 46.



"All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed,"
Click to expand...





That is a funny quote. I love iron Maiden, I'm throwing my Flight 666 DVD on now.



Great reply. I love this place.
 
Goatboy said:
Woe to you oh earth & sea, because the devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows that time os short. Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number, it's number is 46.



"All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental, and should not be construed,"
Click to expand...

Andy Roo said:
That is a funny quote. I love iron Maiden, I'm throwing my Flight 666 DVD on now.



Great reply. I love this place.
Click to expand...



You two just made me flick over to utube for a dose of "hallowed be thy name" from the same album.

Thanks, rekindled old memories.
 
I've met Steve Harris, his daughter played a gig at the tiniest local pub & I stood next to him all frigging night. & When I finally talked to him he was an absolute gent, I was a geeky pissed ...... but he took it in his stride. We talked about John Entwistle, much respect.
 
mylexicon said:
I think you need to check the record books again.



1. Stoner - Ducati/Bridgestone

2. Pedrosa - Honda/Michelin

3. Rossi - Yamaha/Michelin

4. Hopkins - Suzuki/Bridgestone

5. Melandri - Honda/Bridgestone

6. Vermeulen - Suzuki/Bridgestone



4 or the top 6 slots were occupied by Bridgestone runners. Going into the 2007 season, the hype surrounding the new Bridgestones was substantial and Gresini obtained Honda's blessing to switch tire suppliers.



The 21L formula turned the sport on its ear. Prior to 2007, cornering was just time wasted by not accelerating or decelerating (not technically correct, but you know what I mean). Yamaha proved this theory in the modern era with the M1, which was almost unbeatable in its second year of development, until the advent of strict fuel capacity restrictions. HRC were not keen on point-and-shoot, which is part of the reason Rossi left them behind, and why he was so delighted to kick HRC ....



When the 21L-800cc formula was introduced, potential acceleration and deceleration were drastically reduced. Deceleration wasted fuel, and acceleration was reduced by the fuel capacity, smaller displacement, and narrower powerband. Carrying cornerspeed was critical b/c it decreased lap times and saved braking waste which could be converted to acceleration potential. This formula could be described as the anti-Rossi, anti-Yamaha formula, and Rossi certainly felt this way. Lashing out about the bikes and the tires, and demonstrating a genuine sense of relief when he beat back the evil empire (HRC) to win in 2008 and 2009. This is another reason I don't subscribe to the Rossi-gets-whatever-he-wants-theory. He certainly never wanted 21L-800cc or tight fuel restrictions in 2006 b/c they didn't mesh with his development work on the M1.



The tire design strategy for 21L is quite straight forward. Make the profiles more extreme to enlarge the contact patch at full lean, thus softer coumpounds. But when lateral acceleration rises, the tire carcass tends to deform under cornering stress which often causes front end loss. Bridgestone made the carcass very hard. The stiff Bridgestone carcasses were to the liking of Casey Stoner. Hopkins was also notorious for overriding the front tire, and I think he would have gotten progressively better with the new Bridgestones or the 2010 control tire. Alas, he made the ill-fated jump to Kawasaki, a team that did not adapt well to the new 2008 tires. Suzuki didn't do much better.
Click to expand...

Cogent arguments, as always, including your previous post.



No doubt letting the msma devise the technical rules was a bad idea, as would be having the competitors make up the rules as they go in any sport, let alone one as actually and potentially expensive as motogp.



I take your point that many things were done to rossi's detriment, including the 800 formula which seems to have been devised to fit an abstruse engineering philosophy held by honda, and the elimination of sns tyres, which there was some talk at the time was done after consultation with rossi. Apart from dorna imo being incompetent, a concern given they are now the main hope for salvation, I think they honestly believed rossi was so good he couldn't be beaten, and that he himself bought in to this to some extent. He in all truth is almost that good, but we now see even he requires a bike that suits him after ending up on a bike designed to be the anti-rossi bike by ducati's own admission, they believing perhaps not unreasonably that he couldn't be out-ridden on a bike similar to his own.



That said I think the motivation for the call for the rev limit by honda and yamaha in 2007 was because they thought ducati was beating them because of an engine advantage (ducati did have an engine advantage at least that year) rather than anything more general, and I do think the tyre changes were partly because stoner was seen to have an advantage there as well, such advantages not necessarily having been a problem previously. Michelin was of course in some disarray at a corporate level and did not cope well with either the formula change or the demise of the sns tyres, although they still had the advantage at some tracks and the better qualifiers, which contributed to the racing imo being better than it has been since, if not up to the standard of 2006.
 
Jumkie said:
I'd like to thank Goaty again for keeping this forum going. U sir are a great service. (i mean this sincerely, where have all the bops gone? Yes, they'll be back next year, but u sir have stuck it out. And for that, much respect).



Lex, u make some good points. But i still think Andy's point still stands. I've being arguing for years, eliminate Casey from the record books and we have a very diff MotoGP historical narrative. I believe the tire war may have still been with us, and perhaps even the "smaller" Jap brands. Its Caseys success, and yes, it was 'surprising and unexpected' that led the whole of the sport to put tires under a microscope. No Stoner: Rossi wins 07, 06 remains an off script fluke, normal status resumed. No need to eliminate Michelin for Bridgestone which led then changes to the tire to suit VR. All of this C change (pardon the pun) happened bcuz of Caseys success, which given 06, then 07, was simply unacceptable to the league (apart from Carmelos love affair with VR) the demands of the casual fan AKA Yellow Army, this had to be corrected in the most expedited and dramatic fashion.
Click to expand...

Goatboy has my gratitude as well, particularly for maintaining his sense of humour. I sometimes forget that he is now the one usually responding to provocation.
 
mylexicon said:
I think you need to check the record books again.



1. Stoner - Ducati/Bridgestone

2. Pedrosa - Honda/Michelin

3. Rossi - Yamaha/Michelin

4. Hopkins - Suzuki/Bridgestone

5. Melandri - Honda/Bridgestone

6. Vermeulen - Suzuki/Bridgestone
Click to expand...



I stand corrected. I still maintain in the 2 from 3 scenario little has changed except the numbers. Michelin would have been quite happy if they snaveled spots 1 and 2 with their particular riders.



I still maintain that but for CS Michelin would not have been given the boot so damn quickly, even if they losing their touch 2007 just hastened it by a few years.
 
Jumkie said:
I'd like to thank Goaty again for keeping this forum going. U sir are a great service. (i mean this sincerely, where have all the bops gone? Yes, they'll be back next year, but u sir have stuck it out. And for that, much respect).



Lex, u make some good points. But i still think Andy's point still stands. I've being arguing for years, eliminate Casey from the record books and we have a very diff MotoGP historical narrative. I believe the tire war may have still been with us, and perhaps even the "smaller" Jap brands. Its Caseys success, and yes, it was 'surprising and unexpected' that led the whole of the sport to put tires under a microscope. No Stoner: Rossi wins 07, 06 remains an off script fluke, normal status resumed. No need to eliminate Michelin for Bridgestone which led then changes to the tire to suit VR. All of this C change (pardon the pun) happened bcuz of Caseys success, which given 06, then 07, was simply unacceptable to the league (apart from Carmelos love affair with VR) the demands of the casual fan AKA Yellow Army, this had to be corrected in the most expedited and dramatic fashion.
Click to expand...



Umm, Barry informed me that I'm a bopper. And Barry is wrong less often than Chuck Norris.



On topic (sorta) this thread is a treat to read, great posts by everyone.
 
Andy Roo said:
I still maintain that but for CS Michelin would not have been given the boot so damn quickly, even if they losing their touch 2007 just hastened it by a few years.
Click to expand...



Maybe. Observing the perpetual upheaval in MotoGP regardless of Casey's finishing position, I tend to think the systemic forces are overpowering. I can imagine a scenario in which Michelin survive the early years of the 800cc formula, but I'm not sure it is necessarily a relevant fantasy. I feel like the situation is the same whether it happened in 2008 or 2015.



Speaking to michaelm's remarks, I have thought about the situation many times since 2008, but my conclusion is the same as it was then. I think that Dorna were making changes to fit their interpretation of MotoGP. If Stoner's success was a casualty, so be it. Dorna have always appeared indifferent to Stoner's plight, but I cannot see evidence that they actively tried to slow him down relative to the rest of the field. I know Stoner and Preziosi would take me to task regarding the 19,000rpm rev limit, but I'm not sure what role Dorna played the rev limit rule change.
 
mylexicon said:
Maybe. Observing the perpetual upheaval in MotoGP regardless of Casey's finishing position, I tend to think the systemic forces are overpowering. I can imagine a scenario in which Michelin survive the early years of the 800cc formula, but I'm not sure it is necessarily a relevant fantasy. I feel like the situation is the same whether it happened in 2008 or 2015.



Speaking to michaelm's remarks, I have thought about the situation many times since 2008, but my conclusion is the same as it was then. I think that Dorna were making changes to fit their interpretation of MotoGP. If Stoner's success was a casualty, so be it. Dorna have always appeared indifferent to Stoner's plight, but I cannot see evidence that they actively tried to slow him down relative to the rest of the field. I know Stoner and Preziosi would take me to task regarding the 19,000rpm rev limit, but I'm not sure what role Dorna played the rev limit rule change.
Click to expand...

I think all your hypotheses are well thought out and well argued. I actually don't know if there was an unofficial rev limit brought in by dorna or by agreement among the msma way back then, but it is an interesting idea. The actual call for the rev limit in 2007 was by honda and yamaha before they got their pneumatic technology working and was I believe aimed at ducati and stoner, but likely was their idea rather than originating from dorna.



I believe most of dorna's rule changes have been well intentioned, just commonly not very well thought out, albeit with their degree of control perhaps more limited by the msma than was formerly apparent as you say.



I think the tyre/tyre rule changes were pretty much down to dorna and individual riders though, rather than the msma; it was my distinct impression honda were prepared to give michelin more than a year but puig and pedrosa were not, but only my impression. The damage changing the tyre did to ducati and hence stoner may have been tangential to decisions made for other reasons, but I don't think it is unreasonable to suspect that reducing stoner's and/or ducati's perceived advantage was involved; I refer to your tyre conspiracy of 2008 rather than the control tyre which I don't think was aimed against stoner or ducati, but rather at closer racing (theoretically) and lowering costs as was said , for dorna at least since supplying the tyres free to satellite teams was part of the deal. Having said all that stoner has made no complaint about them changing the tyres, and he is not notably reticent about such things. I don't know about the tyre and weight changes which annoyed honda (and stoner) this year, perhaps carmelo was trying to help the CRTs and ducati rather than punish honda/play power games with honda, but I still think changing things so late was amateurish.
 

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