New weight rules effective immediately

povol · May 24, 2011

AMA Pro Road Racing Technical Bulletin #2011-04

To: All AMA Pro Road Racing Competitors

Date: 5/23/2011

Effective Date: Immediately

Subject: Daytona SportBike and SuperSport Minimum Weights

5.2 Weight

a. Minimum weight in the exact condition the machine finishes any competition activity (qualifying or race) without the addition of fluids or other items of any kind:

i. 4 cylinders 360 355 pounds

ii. 3 cylinders 370 365 pounds

iii. 2 cylinders 380 385 pounds

6.2 Weight

a. Minimum weight in the exact condition the machine finishes any competition activity (qualifying or race) without the addition of fluids or other items of any kind:

i. 4 cylinders 360 355 pounds

ii. 3 cylinders 370 365 pounds

iii. 2 cylinders 380 385 pounds

Here we go again. As discussed before, and just recently, how many DSB teams are actually at the 360 lb limit, much less capable of reaching 355 by this weekend. The adjustments have evened out the hp to weight ratio, but did nothing to address the massive torque advantage,{ close to 20ftlbs].For most 600 riders, this means nothing except Ducati got a 5 lb penalty, when it should have been somewhere in the 20lb range. Jumkie , maybe you can confirm this, by my calculations, a DSB bike should be able to complete a race on around 3.5 gallons of fuel, meaning the Ducati would simply add around 2/3's of a gallon of fuel to to weigh in properly at the end of the race.

L8Braker · May 24, 2011

effective immediately...I mean really come on?

mylexicon · May 24, 2011

Just saw this on RRW. Predictable. DMG are skilled in the art of making changes that do nothing.

I for one am not terribly upset that Ducati are winning everything b/c they went out of their way to adapt the EVO bike to AMA rules; however, DMG should either stand by this homologation special deal or they should abandon it.

Does anyone remember how much weight they took off the Ducati going into this season?

povol · May 24, 2011

mylexicon said:
Just saw this on RRW. Predictable. DMG are skilled in the art of making changes that do nothing.

I for one am not terribly upset that Ducati are winning everything b/c they went out of their way to adapt the EVO bike to AMA rules; however, DMG should either stand by this homologation special deal or they should abandon it.

Does anyone remember how much weight they took off the Ducati going into this season?

I think the 380lb minimum is a close standard set for the big bore Vtwins in DSB. Look at these numbers and tell me if you think the 848 belongs in DSB. These are comparisons of a new 848 Evo to a 2005 999 which competed in Superbike

999

Power: 140bhp @ 9,750rpm

Torque: 80lb/ft @ 8,000rpm

Weight: 186kg (dry) 410lbs

Power/Weight: .753 (bhp/kg) ]1 hp for 2.9 lbs

Torque/Weight: .430 (lb-ft/kg)

848 Evo

Power: 140bhp @ 10,500rpm

Torque: 72.3lb/ft @ 9,750rpm

Weight: 168kg (dry) 370 lbs

Power/Weight: .833 ] 1hp for every 2.6 lbs

Torque/Weight: .430

L8Braker · May 25, 2011

Wow Pov....is that comparison right? I'm with Lex...why screw around with the rules right before the race. DMG needs to pull their head out, this was not a good decision to do this so quickly in my opinion.

povol · May 25, 2011

L8Braker said:
Wow Pov....is that comparison right? I'm with Lex...why screw around with the rules right before the race. DMG needs to pull their head out, this was not a good decision to do this so quickly in my opinion.

According to Ducati, those were the numbers on a stock bikes when introduced in perspective years. Both are dry weights and crank HP.

Im sure the other teams were howling and DMG wanted to react before the championship got away early. Like i said before, in an interview with Eslick, he wanted so badly to complain but knew he couldnt, or it would tarnish his title. The dyno didnt lie would be my guess, but the changes are more symbolic than anything, i dont expect much difference.

mylexicon · May 25, 2011

povol said:
I think the 380lb minimum is a close standard set for the big bore Vtwins in DSB. Look at these numbers and tell me if you think the 848 belongs in DSB. These are comparisons of a new 848 Evo to a 2005 999 which competed in Superbike

999

Power: 140bhp @ 9,750rpm

Torque: 80lb/ft @ 8,000rpm

Weight: 186kg (dry) 410lbs

Power/Weight: .753 (bhp/kg) ]1 hp for 2.9 lbs

Torque/Weight: .430 (lb-ft/kg)

848 Evo

Power: 140bhp @ 10,500rpm

Torque: 72.3lb/ft @ 9,750rpm

Weight: 168kg (dry) 370 lbs

Power/Weight: .833 ] 1hp for every 2.6 lbs

Torque/Weight: .430

Ducati never raced the 999. If you are trying to insinuate that the 848 is practically an SBK, you should race prep a 999R and an 848 Evo and then race them. The Evo won't even stay with the 999R through the first bend. The 999R has full titanium reciprocating internals, magnesium subframes, the racing version of demso, and a host of other modifications that escape me. The 999R would also have at least 50hp on the Evo.

The 848 Evo is a middleweight bike, whether or not it is competing under fair regulations is a different issue.

I am starting to worry about DSB b/c it appears that everyone is right about DMG misgivings. I said that performance balancing would never work so DMG would have to abandon it. Others said that performance balancing would work, and DMG would never stop tinkering. Looks like we are both right in the worst case. Performance balancing doesn't really work and DMG will never stop tinkering.

Thankfully, SBK is not run according to the same performance balancing concept.

povol · May 25, 2011

mylexicon said:
Ducati never raced the 999. If you are trying to insinuate that the 848 is practically an SBK, you should race prep a 999R and an 848 Evo and then race them. The Evo won't even stay with the 999R through the first bend. The 999R has full titanium reciprocating internals, magnesium subframes, the racing version of demso, and a host of other modifications that escape me. The 999R would also have at least 50hp on the Evo.

The 848 Evo is a middleweight bike, whether or not it is competing under fair regulations is a different issue.

I am starting to worry about DSB b/c it appears that everyone is right about DMG misgivings. I said that performance balancing would never work so DMG would have to abandon it. Others said that performance balancing would work, and DMG would never stop tinkering. Looks like we are both right in the worst case. Performance balancing doesn't really work and DMG will never stop tinkering.

Thankfully, SBK is not run according to the same performance balancing concept.

Pure semantics, the 999r was a gussied up 999 streetbike that cost 30k and was based off the 999. It put out a whopping 10 more hp than the 999, so yes, they raced the 999. And no, i was pointing out that the 848 has better performance than what the 2005 Superbike was based off of, the 999. The 848 is a tweener that does not belong racing against the 600's.If you look at todays performance of the 600's, they are not in the same universe as the 2005 1000's that the Superbikes were based from. I still cant understand why Ducati can abandon their heritage and build a 4 cylinder for GP, but refuses to do so for any other series. Actually i do understand, because sticking with the twin eventually ends up with them having a power advantage after they sulk and threaten to quit, then quit, then come back, then quit again. Personally i wish all racing series would tell them to .... off, here are the rules, you want to play, build a bike. They can build a v41000, they can build a v4800, but for some reason,they cant build a v4 600. Not only would that be cool as hell, it would probably sell like hotcakes. But then, they couldnt manipulate system and that trait seems to be part of their DNA.

mylexicon · May 26, 2011

povol said:
Pure semantics, the 999r was a gussied up 999 streetbike that cost 30k and was based off the 999. It put out a whopping 10 more hp than the 999, so yes, they raced the 999. And no, i was pointing out that the 848 has better performance than what the 2005 Superbike was based off of, the 999. The 848 is a tweener that does not belong racing against the 600's.If you look at todays performance of the 600's, they are not in the same universe as the 2005 1000's that the Superbikes were based from. I still cant understand why Ducati can abandon their heritage and build a 4 cylinder for GP, but refuses to do so for any other series. Actually i do understand, because sticking with the twin eventually ends up with them having a power advantage after they sulk and threaten to quit, then quit, then come back, then quit again. Personally i wish all racing series would tell them to .... off, here are the rules, you want to play, build a bike. They can build a v41000, they can build a v4800, but for some reason,they cant build a v4 600. Not only would that be cool as hell, it would probably sell like hotcakes. But then, they couldnt manipulate system and that trait seems to be part of their DNA.

Povol, the 999R had a completely different engine than the 999. It was hugely overbore (1.8:1) with all titanium internals, a racing crank, and a racing cylinder head and valvetrain. In stock trim it made 10 extra hp b/c the engine wasn't durable, but that has little to do with the real capabilities of the machine. The 999 and 999R shared a frame an a swingarm, that's about it. The swingarm was replaced for racing. How do you think WSBK became the Ducati Cup? It was hotted up street bikes vs. a purpose built racing machine that exploited the old 500 unit homologation rules. The 848 is just a nice street bike, and so was the 999.

As for Ducati's idiotic obsession with the desmo twin, I'm with you. I love Desmo twins but Duc insist on slamming a square peg through a round hole for superbike. Back in the day there was an ownership petition to lobby Ducati not to be idiots and build a 1200cc twin. I signed it. They didn't listen. They could make a V4 that sounds and works exactly like a high revving twin, but they refuse.

Though I agree with you regarding the testastretta desmoquattro engine line, I don't think you understand Ducati's position. They are the only manufacturer who uses desmo. B/c they are the only manufacturer, the production bike racing rules don't allow for desmo to show its true advantage. If production bike racing wasn't horsepower limited, Ducati would build V4 racing engines, and they would win everything by a country mile. A V4 600 Desmo would make a mockery of the WSS field and it would probably outrun some of the current SBKs.

No joke. I've wanted them to build a V4 600 Desmo for a long time, just so we can witness the insanity of it.

povol · May 26, 2011

mylexicon said:
Povol, the 999R had a completely different engine than the 999. It was hugely overbore (1.8:1) with all titanium internals, a racing crank, and a racing cylinder head and valvetrain. In stock trim it made 10 extra hp b/c the engine wasn't durable, but that has little to do with the real capabilities of the machine. The 999 and 999R shared a frame an a swingarm, that's about it. The swingarm was replaced for racing. How do you think WSBK became the Ducati Cup? It was hotted up street bikes vs. a purpose built racing machine that exploited the old 500 unit homologation rules. The 848 is just a nice street bike, and so was the 999.

As for Ducati's idiotic obsession with the desmo twin, I'm with you. I love Desmo twins but Duc insist on slamming a square peg through a round hole for superbike. Back in the day there was an ownership petition to lobby Ducati not to be idiots and build a 1200cc twin. I signed it. They didn't listen. They could make a V4 that sounds and works exactly like a high revving twin, but they refuse.

Though I agree with you regarding the testastretta desmoquattro engine line, I don't think you understand Ducati's position. They are the only manufacturer who uses desmo. B/c they are the only manufacturer, the production bike racing rules don't allow for desmo to show its true advantage. If production bike racing wasn't horsepower limited, Ducati would build V4 racing engines, and they would win everything by a country mile. A V4 600 Desmo would make a mockery of the WSS field and it would probably outrun some of the current SBKs.

No joke. I've wanted them to build a V4 600 Desmo for a long time, just so we can witness the insanity of it.

I wouldnt call it an idiotic obsession, it a very efficient valve train system,although the pneumatic system seems to have matched it on the track. If the whole idea is selling bikes, everybody knows its the Johnny squid bench racer who reads Sport Rider magazine and buys the bike with the best HP in its class. Build it and they will come, that is if they dont slap a 17-18 k price tag on it.

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