Naughty Yamaha

Macca · Nov 5, 2020

So, Yamaha have been caught swapping the defective valves in their engines for all riders....

Details are still emerging, no-one seems to be 100% clear on exactly when/how this has happened.

The best I can tell, the designs for the engine were supplied for homologation (along with a sample engine) ahead of the Qutar round.

This round got ..... cancelled and we had a 10 week break.

During this time, Yamaha changed the valves ahead of the first race in Jerez.
The same valves then failed in the high heat of the Jerez rounds and junked 3 engines.

Yamaha then apparently reverted to the original valves for the remaining, unused engines.

As a punishment, Yamaha have been fined 50 constructor championship points and 20 world championship points

The individual riders points are unchanged.

Given that the penalty for taking a 6th engine is spit lane start, do we think that this is sufficiently l artificially lenient?

Dorna just keeping the championship alive?

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 5, 2020

Just came to say I read same.

https://the-race.com/motogp/yamaha-engine-investigation-puts-title-hopes-at-risk/

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 5, 2020

Macca said:
So, Yamaha have been caught swapping the defective valves in their engines for all riders....

As a punishment, Yamaha have been fined 50 constructor championship points and 20 world championship points

The individual riders points are unchanged.

Given that the penalty for taking a 6th engine is spit lane start, do we think that this is sufficiently l artificially lenient?

Dorna just keeping the championship alive?

I haven't read about any sanctions yet. Is it fair to penalise a rider who has unknowingly ridden a non compliant bike? And is it right that Yamaha only cop a team sanction, whereby a rider can still claim a title on a non sanctioned machine?

Macca · Nov 5, 2020

Barbedwirebikerr said:
I haven't read about any sanctions yet. Is it fair to penalise a rider who has unknowingly ridden a non compliant bike? And is it right that Yamaha only cop a team sanction, whereby a rider can still claim a title on a non sanctioned machine?

It's an interesting question.

I think this is a case of the rules being made up as they go along.

If this had been discovered at the beginning of the season, I'm fairly sure we would have seen individual rider sanctions being handed out.

As it happens, this attempt at circumventing the rules (assumingly for increased performance or reliability) has completely back fired.
They lost lots of engines and had 2 race retirements. As a result of the lost engines, they have had to detune the remaining engines and are now in deep trouble for the last 3 races (Mav only has 2 engines left and is saying he can't do all the free practise sessions in full as the engines won't last)

I've think they've looked at how situation has unfolded and have decided the riders have probably suffered enough...

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 5, 2020

Wonder if Yamaha are required to go back to the "faulty" valves?

p4p1 · Nov 6, 2020

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Wonder if Yamaha are required to go back to the "faulty" valves?

This is a good question with everything being already homologated for 2021. One would have to think if Yamaha change their engines then they must be punished again next year or it opens up for everyone else to do the same.

Macca · Nov 6, 2020

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Wonder if Yamaha are required to go back to the "faulty" valves?

The valves that were part of the original homologated spec are actually the 'good' valves and are what all of their current engines are using.

They actually changed the valves for the Jerez rounds with the ones made from Swiss cheese - It's not actually clear how this has been done as the engines get sealed and by all accounts, no seals were broken.

So they are already running the valves that were signed off officially, but they managed to get different ones in for Jerez...

Macca · Nov 6, 2020

Mav has just confirmed that he talking a 6th engine and will start from pit lane.

Yamaha have attempted to cheat and in doing so, from the first race effectively reduced their engine capacity to 3/5 of it what it should have been.

How many heads will roll?

misfit · Nov 6, 2020

It's a team sport. To get a good result, the rider benefits from the bike as much as the bike from the rider. So if the bike isn't legal, the rider hasn't competed legally. If the rider is penalised, the constructor's result will be affected. It's pure politics why the rider's points aren't affected.... that's down to the power of the dollar.

misfit · Nov 6, 2020

I've always felt that engine homologations are terrible for those behind and a free ride for those at the front. I think it's even worse when there's a reliability issue amiss. The team is then stuck with it for the entire season or even the following season depending on the period of homologation. I know the sport and teams need to implement rules to contain cost. But the rules should minimise homologations that lead to fixed (ad|disad)vantages that teams are unable to try to correct as needed over a season.

moto vudu · Nov 7, 2020

If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Remember when HRC was freezing the some of the fuel in the tanks so that they could get around the maximum fuel load rule and run a more aggressive engine mapping.

RossiSucchia · Nov 7, 2020

Barbedwirebikerr said:
I haven't read about any sanctions yet. Is it fair to penalise a rider who has unknowingly ridden a non compliant bike? And is it right that Yamaha only cop a team sanction, whereby a rider can still claim a title on a non sanctioned machine?

So you go to a race track (horses), the Horse is doped and wins. The stewards find out - do they:

A - Fine the owner and let the Win stand

B - Fine the owner and strip the Win

We all know it is B all day long

RossiSucchia · Nov 7, 2020

Alex Marquez said what everyone else is thinking -

Marquez: Yamaha cheated and the MotoGP riders knew it

.

misfit · Nov 7, 2020

moto vudu said:
If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Remember when HRC was freezing the some of the fuel in the tanks so that they could get around the maximum fuel load rule and run a more aggressive engine mapping.

Exploiting loopholes or interpreting the rules clearly outside the 'spirit of the rules', all to your advantage, is one thing. Cheating is very different.

p4p1 · Nov 7, 2020

moto vudu said:
If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

Remember when HRC was freezing the some of the fuel in the tanks so that they could get around the maximum fuel load rule and run a more aggressive engine mapping.

Was that taking advantage of vagueness rather than straight up cheating?

misfit · Nov 7, 2020

RossiSucchia said:
So you go to a race track (horses), the Horse is doped and wins. The stewards find out - do they:

A - Fine the owner and let the Win stand

B - Fine the owner and strip the Win

We all know it is B all day long

The only excuse for A is where the money is.

Segfault · Nov 7, 2020

If Vinales used two new engines during practice sessions, would he be getting away with just one penalty and two new engines? I think Hamilton did something like this and swapped out a number of engines, ending up with only one penalty. Just curious ...

moto vudu · Nov 7, 2020

p4p1 said:
Was that taking advantage of vagueness rather than straight up cheating?

They were straight up cheating. They were freezing some of the fuel at the bottom of the fuel tank to make it more dense so they could have more liters in the tank. Of course the frozen fuel thaws during the race allowing HRC to take advantage of a more aggressive fuel mapping. They told the inspectors not to put the dipstick (to check fuel load) all the way to the bottom of the tank because of "sensitive" electronics they supposedly had in the tank that could get damaged.

misfit · Nov 7, 2020

Segfault said:
If Vinales used two new engines during practice sessions, would he be getting away with just one penalty and two new engines? I think Hamilton did something like this and swapped out a number of engines, ending up with only one penalty. Just curious ...

I don't think the same rules would apply here since F1 at one time were faced with ridiculously compounded penalties because teams had to changing power units or components of them over and over again. The FIA had no option to reassert some sanity to the situation by giving a maximum power unit related penalty per race weekend. The loophole of course, was that teams could use multiple new units in a weekend without having to do more than start from the back of the grid. I don't know if they actually plugged it but it's been a non-issue with the improved reliability. They soon adjusted the rules so that teams wouldn't be stuck with broken homologated units.

So, IMO, Yamaha has become the victim of ridiculous rules that seem OK on paper until a problem like this arises where there is a KNOWN defect in the power units that they are unable to rectify! This, IMO, isn't good competition. Now they are 'forced' to cheat their way out of it?! It's not like they're changing components for the sole purpose of gaining a performance advantage.

Keshav · Nov 7, 2020

misfit said:
It's a team sport. To get a good result, the rider benefits from the bike as much as the bike from the rider. So if the bike isn't legal, the rider hasn't competed legally. If the rider is penalised, the constructor's result will be affected. It's pure politics why the rider's points aren't affected.... that's down to the power of the dollar.

Precisely. It's regrettable for the rider, but in the big picture, the rider is part of a team effort, which means win together or lose together.

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