MotoGP RPM limits

Reported in recent coverages have been notes that MSMA, the board composed of mainly Japanese motorcycle companies are exploring the idea of setting RPM limits. In particular Honda and Yamaha are the two companies mentioned the most in conjunction with this movement.

Why RPM limits? Well the obvious reason of course is the unfair advantage that Ducati has because it is using a superior valve actuation method. Yamaha has only managed to get the two factory bikes improved with better valve systems than the century old spring method. Honda has accomplished even that level of technology. Suzuki and Kawasaki both have pneumatic technology but can't build the rest of the package. So the obvious solution is to limit RPM and throw designer creativity out the window, settling for the 100 year old spring technology that Honda prefers.

Should the limit be imposed? No way, this is simply a move by the Japanese to change the rules so only their technology is competitive, and will wind up the same way as AMA racing, with just the two guys on Suzuki having a chance to win a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyper @ Mar 17 2008, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Should the limit be imposed?

NO WAY...Tell the Japs to play a "fair game". We should respect the Ducs for their great research. Shame on the Japs!.

They should make it just like Bormula1 ...... ane even include the compulsory pitstops so we have no idea how the battle is going ...... or if indeed there is even a battle until everyone has finished their last pitstop!!

Not.

why dont they limit how many toilet breaks you can have?

no. never.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 17 2008, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They should make it just like Bormula1 ...... ane even include the compulsory pitstops so we have no idea how the battle is going ...... or if indeed there is even a battle until everyone has finished their last pitstop!!

Not.





They should never have a REV limit!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krusty @ Mar 17 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

They should never have a REV limit!


Too right! ..... I cite the 08 Bormula 1 GP of Australia as proof enough alone of that .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 17 2008, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Too right! ..... I cite the 08 Bormula 1 GP of Australia as proof enough alone of that .....
I agree. The new F1 rules rather than allowing the drivers to display their driving skills seemed to allow them to display the absence of such skills, and without changes to the aerodynamics overtaking still appears to be difficult. The youngest drivers with the least experience of the absence of traction control seemed to do best.

I am not arguing that this has anything to do with what the technology should be in motogp, just that following the lead of F1 is not necessarily a good idea, given that their decisions for the last decade or so have been almost universally stupid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyper @ Mar 16 2008, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Should the limit be imposed? No way, this is simply a move by the Japanese to change the rules so only their technology is competitive, and will wind up the same way as AMA racing, with just the two guys on Suzuki having a chance to win a race.

^^^ I agree with you that the playing field should be levelled by way of innovation rather than legislation. I also think that the uncompetitive factories should be forced to bridge the gap through hard work. I will also add that Ducati has been the initiator and the beneficiary of "competition through legislation and/or threaten to leave or i will take my beautiful bikes home with me" method so I have no sympathy for them.

Your assumption about AMA competition is false and the product of ignorance. The AMA has not created rules that favor Suzuki in any fashion. At one point all of the big four Japanese factories were very competitive. Team Yoshimura Suzuki became dominant upon the arrival of Mat Mladin and the exodus of the primary factory efforts. Teams like factory Yamaha, factory Kawasaki/Muzzy, and HRC let American Honda take over. The Yoshimura/Suzuki team have been together for more than 20 years. They also know how to spot and nurture talent better than any other team in the series. Your assumption also indicates that Suzuki have somehow out maneuvered Honda as far as favorable rules. Boldardash!! The AMA rules are the same for everyone, as they should be. Ducati cried and bitched about the rules after the season was over and they realized that their factory effort of Ben "I am only racing to get laid" Bostrom, and Neil "I can only win on a factory bike when everyone else is on non-factory equipment" hodgson. They tried their blackmail tactics with the AMA and were properly told to suck-..., and they went home. The same tactic worked for them with the WSBK (italian owned), who also adopted a single tire rule also another Italian owned company. The point is that they have used this tactic to very good effect and now they may be on the receiving end to which I say tough-....!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Mar 17 2008, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>^^^ I agree with you that the playing field should be levelled by way of innovation rather than legislation. I also think that the uncompetitive factories should be forced to bridge the gap through hard work. I will also add that Ducati has been the initiator and the beneficiary of "competition through legislation and/or threaten to leave or i will take my beautiful bikes home with me" method so I have no sympathy for them.
I agree that ducati could be accused of arguing black is white in motogp, and white is black in sbk, but as has been said before they managed to sell 1500 desmosedici rr bikes fairly easily; presumably this could have been made into a fair sort of sbk weapon, which I think was part of their bargaining position.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hyper @ Mar 17 2008, 03:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Reported in recent coverages have been notes that MSMA, the board composed of mainly Japanese motorcycle companies are exploring the idea of setting RPM limits. In particular Honda and Yamaha are the two companies mentioned the most in conjunction with this movement.

Why RPM limits? Well the obvious reason of course is the unfair advantage that Ducati has because it is using a superior valve actuation method. Yamaha has only managed to get the two factory bikes improved with better valve systems than the century old spring method. Honda has accomplished even that level of technology. Suzuki and Kawasaki both have pneumatic technology but can't build the rest of the package. So the obvious solution is to limit RPM and throw designer creativity out the window, settling for the 100 year old spring technology that Honda prefers.

Should the limit be imposed? No way, this is simply a move by the Japanese to change the rules so only their technology is competitive, and will wind up the same way as AMA racing, with just the two guys on Suzuki having a chance to win a race.

I'm against a rev limit, I guess the reason to do it would be to reduce costs, since the higher revs you get the more research you need to do in materials and structures that will withstand them.

By the way Honda used Desmo about 40 years ago in F1 engines, succesfully. Desmo is not "superior" to pneumatic closing in any way. Ducati hang on to that for commercial reasons I suppose. At best it's not a handicap. Companies tend to hang onto some kind of technical symbol for commercial reasons, Yamaha had the 5th valve, BMW has boxer engines etc ...
I think the ones happier with a rev limit would be Ducati, cause you can get higher revs with pneumatic than with desmo.
But it could be the japs want to set road bike technology (springs) for commercial reasons. They already imposed 4strokes so they could related their GP bikes to their CBRs and R1 etc In that case Ducati will never agree, cause desmo is superior to springs in the current technical regulations.

Hi Hyper,
We actually had a spirited discussion about this before. Check it out (don't remember the name of the thread at the moment.) Anyway, I'm against the rev limit. I think other ways to make bikes equal that have not yet been explored would be more effective.

absolutely no rev limits! no control tires! no fuel limits! no weight restrictions for riders! even tho this benifits pedrosa . look motogp is a pure breed racing series which should be let unmolested by restrictive ........ rules. honda & yamaha just need to shut up & quit their bellyachin & get on with making their pneumatics work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Mar 17 2008, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...............
By the way Honda used Desmo about 40 years ago in F1 engines, successfully. ....

Honda won the F1 GP of Italy in 1965, but I never heard they used a desmo engine. I think that was their only victory in a few years, before they withdrew from F1 as a car constructor.

Honda has been successful from the '90s onwards as an engine supplier to various F1 teams, but there too I never heard they used desmo. The only desmo cars I heard of are a couple of Mercedes racing cars of the '50s.

BTW, I do not see any reason why desmo should be unable to reach the same rpm levels as a pneumatic system.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Mar 17 2008, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.BTW, I do not see any reason why desmo should be unable to reach the same rpm levels as a pneumatic system.
If switch the words, I'd agree with you 100%
Honda and Yamaha are acting like my wife, very impatient I'm still married (barely ) and get the job done. Come on H&Y!!! Get off your .....!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Mar 17 2008, 07:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>absolutely no rev limits! no control tires! no fuel limits! no weight restrictions for riders! even tho this benifits pedrosa . look motogp is a pure breed racing series which should be let unmolested by restrictive ........ rules. honda & yamaha just need to shut up & quit their bellyachin & get on with making their pneumatics work.
Well said frosty.. I could not agree more.

[

Your assumption about AMA competition is false and the product of ignorance. The AMA has not created rules that favor Suzuki in any fashion. At one point all of the big four Japanese factories were very competitive. Team Yoshimura Suzuki became dominant upon the arrival of Mat Mladin and the exodus of the primary factory efforts. Teams like factory Yamaha, factory Kawasaki/Muzzy, and HRC let American Honda take over. The Yoshimura/Suzuki team have been together for more than 20 years. They also know how to spot and nurture talent better than any other team in the series. Your assumption also indicates that Suzuki have somehow out maneuvered Honda as far as favorable rules. Boldardash!! The AMA rules are the same for everyone, as they should be. Ducati cried and bitched about the rules after the season was over and they realized that their factory effort of Ben "I am only racing to get laid" Bostrom, and Neil "I can only win on a factory bike when everyone else is on non-factory equipment" hodgson. They tried their blackmail tactics with the AMA and were properly told to suck-..., and they went home. The same tactic worked for them with the WSBK (italian owned), who also adopted a single tire rule also another Italian owned company. The point is that they have used this tactic to very good effect and now they may be on the receiving end to which I say tough-....!!!
[/quote]

Not quite the case there. Team Yoshimure suzuki became dominent because of their traction control system which is quite ingenious actually, but doesn't fit the normal traction control definition, hence was allowed. Ducati was trying to get the AMA to allow traction control in the usual sense, but AMA (which is mostly backed by Japanese companies) said no. True, the rules are the same for everyone, which means that if you don't run 4 cylinder bikes, you aren't going to win. The point is that twins should be allowed more cc and less weight to be competitive.

Suzuki's traction control is actually an "engine management" technique and would cost quite a lot of money to develop, making it impossible for a small company thus leaving the field clear for the Japanese four cylinders. What the Suzuki does is to use sensors on the flywheel of the engine, and cut power if the flywheel accelerates too quickly. Hence when you listen to the Suzuki accelerate out of corners, it misfires, belches, and runs poorly at times until it can apply full power. Quite interesting how last year both Spies and Mladin managed to fall down, stay down long enough for the red flag to come out, then hop on their bikes and ride to second place behind their teammate. Considering nothing but a Yoshimura Suzuki has won a race since Ducati dropped out, it seems a bit less than a competitive series. Perhaps now that Roger Edmondson is back in charge, it will improve into a real race series. At least one improvement is on the books already, the Daytona 200 will be superbikes again, not the farce of Formula Extreme.

Hyper

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Mar 17 2008, 06:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm against a rev limit, I guess the reason to do it would be to reduce costs, since the higher revs you get the more research you need to do in materials and structures that will withstand them.

By the way Honda used Desmo about 40 years ago in F1 engines, succesfully. Desmo is not "superior" to pneumatic closing in any way. Ducati hang on to that for commercial reasons I suppose. At best it's not a handicap. Companies tend to hang onto some kind of technical symbol for commercial reasons, Yamaha had the 5th valve, BMW has boxer engines etc ...
I think the ones happier with a rev limit would be Ducati, cause you can get higher revs with pneumatic than with desmo.
But it could be the japs want to set road bike technology (springs) for commercial reasons. They already imposed 4strokes so they could related their GP bikes to their CBRs and R1 etc In that case Ducati will never agree, cause desmo is superior to springs in the current technical regulations.

If my memory serves me correctly we didn't have a "rev" problem in 2006. Reducing power is what has ruined the sport. If they wanna slow things down they should increase width requirements. More drag means 10 extra hp doesn't do jack at 300kph. There would be tons of passing on the straights, and the riders would have a protected cockpit instead of hanging out in the breeze. They could have unlimited fuel and it still wouldn't help them get down the straights much faster.

I'm against a rev limit because it is baloney. 1 stupid rule that changed displacement to 800cc has caused bedlam. The change to 800cc has been an unmitigated failure because it has increased cost, number of rules, and it has failed to make anything safer.

Plus, this is so predicable. A big bang I-4 is made for hooking up at low rpm and Honda are too pathetic to get their pneumatic program off the ground. Two companies stuck in their ways. Honda with it's stupid narrow angle engines and spring valves and Yamaha with its refusal to try new engine configs.

Why isn't Desmo better?

The smaller the engine the better it is because the relative power loss from valve actuation is constant (assuming valves shrink too). The relative power loss from springs grows as the engine gets smaller and revs higher. Plus, desmo utilizes the mechanical advantage of leverage and isn't a closed system like pneumatics and it doesn't have energy loss from gas compression.

The only thing that will beat Desmo for small displacement engines is electromagnetic valve actuation. The teams should be working on that instead of whining for rules changes.

Plus, its not just Desmo. Ducati run an L-4 with screamer firing. It's naturally balanced unlike narrow V's and it's better balanced and narrower than an I-4. Even with a change, Ducati would probably still have 10kph on the field. They would stroke the engine, reduce cylinder width, and maintain similar speed and have even more low end grunt.

if im being stupid just say i not know much about the valves....

but i had a thought

i read recently that pnuematic valves on a motorcycle are nothing special and dont offer much over spring valves, so i was thinking because motogp bikes have such a complex ECU why dont they start working on a hydraulic valve or a CC valve motor which could easily rev as high as the desmo system 20,000 rpm.

quote:

"hydraulic valve actuation. Several companies have developed true 'camless' systems, in which each valve is opened and closed by a hydraulic actuator entirely controlled by the ECU. These systems have been used at revs as high as 15,000 RPM, and continuing advances mean that 20,000 RPM is possible".

or maybe:

"computer-controlled valve actuation would bring a host of benefits to any engine, as it would mean that a virtually infinite variety of 'profiles' could be used, each optimized for the specific conditions (RPM, load, etc.). Valve lift, duration, and opening/closing speed could be varied to a virtually unlimited extent"

what do u lot think i mean if these revs are possible with different designs why not try them out (honda,yamaha) before trying to get the rules changed??

Did a google search for 20, 000 RPM and this is what popped up
HERE

Thats kind of funny.