This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

MotoGP Electronics: Even More Complex Than You Thought

Joined Feb 2007
6K Posts | 58+
Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
MotoGP Electronics: Even More Complex Than You Thought

Submitted by David Emmett on Sat, 2010-11-13 16:25.



Kropotkin

If there's one subject that makes a MotoGP fan's blood boil, it's electronics. Electronic rider aids have removed a lot of the spectacle that formerly characterized the series, controlling wheelspin and managing tire wear, turning MotoGP into a series where the front wheel is paramount and the winner is the rider who can carry the most corner speed.



The electronics consist of a battery of sensors, monitoring the location and state of the bike on the track. GPS tracks the precise position of the bike as it travels round the track; gyroscopes monitor its attitude; accelerometers measure the forces being exerted through corners; and a range of engine and wheel sensors monitor wheel speed, engine speed, throttle position and a multitude of other parameters. All this data is fed into (for Yamaha and Ducati, at least) the Magneti Marelli Marvel 4 ECU, which then translates all that information into an engine mapping perfectly matched to the conditions on the track.



At least, that's what we thought they did. For at the annual (and fascinating) debrief held by Yamaha in which they share with the media how they developed the YZR-M1 race machine to help keep it competitive, Yamaha's departing MotoGP project leader Masao Furusawa revealed that they don't just match the data coming in via the sensors to calculate the correct power characteristics for the bike.



In fact, as the bikes are circulating, the on-board electronics are running a series of real-time simulations with the data, predicting how the bike will behave in the next couple of laps. The ECU takes data from sensors to map tire wear and traction over the course of the laps, and runs simulations to predict how those will develop based on current conditions. Not only are the electronics matching the power and throttle response to the current conditions, they are also working out what to do on the next lap as well, and what changes the harsh or careful treatment being handed out to the rear tire by the rider will require to the engine mapping.



Running real-time simulations on incoming data is a direct result of Moore's Law, the rule-of-thumb used in the computing industry that predicts that the number of processors per square millimeter of silicon on a computer chip doubles roughly every 18 months, a prediction that has held good since the early Seventies. As a result, the ECUs being fitted to MotoGP bikes are now roughly equivalent to the Supercomputers being used to model scientific problems twenty-odd years ago.



With Moore's Law still holding good, despite continuous predictions of its imminent demise, the simulations being run by the MotoGP electronics are only going to get ever more sophisticated, including ever more parameters and running multiple times per lap, producing more precise predictions. Technologically, that is an astounding feat. Whether that is good for the show is another thing altogether, though.



motomatters





http://motomatters.com/news/2010/11/13/motogp_electronics_even_more_complex_tha.html









all aboard the FAIL BOAT.
<
 
Just quoted that article in another thread.



Just shows how much the Rossifans were wrong with regard to how much electronic aid Rossi uses.
<
 
Just quoted that article in another thread.



Just shows how much the Rossifans were wrong with regard to how much electronic aid Rossi uses.
<

<
God you're the most ........ troll ever.. please go get Black Ops so i cut the stupid out of your ...
<








Back on Topic:



The art of racing a motorcycle is dying.... They'll be racing Tron bikes soon..
 
They'll be racing Tron bikes soon..



As is pertinent to the era we live in
<




I think they should checkthe bikes for speach recognition, the rder is probably verbally coaxing the bike over the line too. Not that riders have never coaxed/spoken to their bikes before ( I myself used to find I became very religious and exclaimed a lot of religious personal diatribe during the last lap of many a race
<
) , its just that the bike never listened and reacted nor spoke back in the past.
<
<
<
<
 
It's a science, and its changing.



Racing a motorcycle is not science unless the world of abstract thought and spacial perception are science. When you've quantified those things, let me know.



The manufacturers are interfering with the unfortunate limitations of human beings. If left unchecked, the bikes will ride themselves in a matter of time. Slowly replacing the rider in the saddle is not the sign of a sport that is progressing. I have no idea why people cannot understand this painfully simple idea. It's one thing if your part of the MSMA b/c you'll do whatever it takes to pursue corporate strategy and chase profit (even if it involves pissing off your customer base?!). But the average fan has no excuses unless they are afraid of rider fatalities.



Rider aids may be part of building a motorcycle, a business operation; but they are not part of motorcycle racing, a sport.
 
Racing a motorcycle is not science unless the world of abstract thought and spacial perception are science. When you've quantified those things, let me know.



Rider aids may be part of building a motorcycle, a business operation; but they are not part of motorcycle racing, a sport.



Typically over dramatic as ever lex, but rider aids have been a part of the sport for a long time. The degree of rider aids that are acceptable is debatable, i don't think it's as black and white as you sugest. Either way, racing a motorcycle is a science.
 
(Random ..... about the first post in the thread coming up)



Maybe we shouldn't start threads with entire articles copy and pasted? I mean I'm sure Krop (a member of this forum) would prefer if just a link or a extract of the article was posted, not the entire thing. This would help his site got more hits, and better stats to show off to advertisers. And considering the quality of motomatters, he deserves every cent.



Just a thought
<
 
(Random ..... about the first post in the thread coming up)



Maybe we shouldn't start threads with entire articles copy and pasted? I mean I'm sure Krop (a member of this forum) would prefer if just a link or a extract of the article was posted, not the entire thing. This would help his site got more hits, and better stats to show off to advertisers. And considering the quality of motomatters, he deserves every cent.



Just a thought
<



I agree wholeheartedly.
 
Racing a motorcycle is not science unless the world of abstract thought and spacial perception are science. When you've quantified those things, let me know.



The manufacturers are interfering with the unfortunate limitations of human beings. If left unchecked, the bikes will ride themselves in a matter of time. Slowly replacing the rider in the saddle is not the sign of a sport that is progressing. I have no idea why people cannot understand this painfully simple idea. It's one thing if your part of the MSMA b/c you'll do whatever it takes to pursue corporate strategy and chase profit (even if it involves pissing off your customer base?!). But the average fan has no excuses unless they are afraid of rider fatalities.



Rider aids may be part of building a motorcycle, a business operation; but they are not part of motorcycle racing, a sport.



Damnit!you are right Lex!



the one rider aid that really gets me is suspension! Why did they ever let them suspend bikes!! they should be stiff frames with solid wheels if a rider can't stay in the saddle with that then why should the bike help him!!



<
<
<




Your post flies in the face of what is ,and has been, development to date Lex. Hey and as one who remembers when suspension rather suddenly got good, I can tell you it is a rider aid, very likely moreso than any electronics shall be.
 
Either way, racing a motorcycle is a science.



+1000



even to be at the front in the lower grades ( clubman grades ), this is an integral part of why some folk win. They treat it as a science ( whether they know it or not ). Its all about trying methods/techniques/equipment and seeing how it goes ( analysing the results ).



At MGP level, it is geek,nerd, professor, laboratory science to a tee. It has its grades of application throughout the teams I'm sure, but its a science.



Thats one thing I really find attractive about MGP, compared to other racing formulas the "science" is prominent, visual, and much more out in the open, Which is perhaps why some feel it is not raw enough.
<
 
Typically over dramatic as ever lex, but rider aids have been a part of the sport for a long time. The degree of rider aids that are acceptable is debatable, i don't think it's as black and white as you sugest. Either way, racing a motorcycle is a science.



Yes, it really is that simple to anyone understands the concept of human competition.



How far you want the manufacturers to push the boundary is a matter of personal opinion (as you have said), but you offer no boundary--only a blank check made out to the MSMA in the name of science. Who is the absolutist?



Motorcycle racing is only science if there is no rider in the saddle. When you can quantify is fear, or his adrenaline, or his love of speed, or his feel for the motorcycle, maybe I will change my mind. Until then, you're dealing with a sport, and I'll ask you not to delude yourself or others with the "science" label.
 
Damnit!you are right Lex!



the one rider aid that really gets me is suspension! Why did they ever let them suspend bikes!! they should be stiff frames with solid wheels if a rider can't stay in the saddle with that then why should the bike help him!!



<
<
<




Your post flies in the face of what is ,and has been, development to date Lex. Hey and as one who remembers when suspension rather suddenly got good, I can tell you it is a rider aid, very likely moreso than any electronics shall be.



Electronic rider aid, Barry.



In case you are unaware. Electronic suspension is banned, as are electronic gearboxes, ABS, electronic clutches, and electronically actuated rider controls (other than throttle). Most electronic rider aids have already been banned in the name of sport and the MSMA couldn't have cared less. They want control of the throttle b/c that gives them a bigger say in who wins and who doesn't. This has been their desire for a very long time, particularly for Honda after they lost Rossi.
 
(Random ..... about the first post in the thread coming up)



Maybe we shouldn't start threads with entire articles copy and pasted? I mean I'm sure Krop (a member of this forum) would prefer if just a link or a extract of the article was posted, not the entire thing. This would help his site got more hits, and better stats to show off to advertisers. And considering the quality of motomatters, he deserves every cent.



Just a thought
<



Unlike certain other internet publishers, I know how the internet works. I understand that people are going to just cut and paste stuff. I could chase it up, but then I'd never have enough time to actually do any work. Or sleep. Or eat. Or take a piss. I'm just glad that the OP posted a link. Links are good. Just cutting and pasting with no attribution is no good.



But thanks a lot for pointing this out, I appreciate it!
 
Electronic rider aid, Barry.



In case you are unaware. Electronic suspension is banned, as are electronic gearboxes, ABS, electronic clutches, and electronically actuated rider controls (other than throttle). Most electronic rider aids have already been banned in the name of sport and the MSMA couldn't have cared less. They want control of the throttle b/c that gives them a bigger say in who wins and who doesn't. This has been their desire for a very long time, particularly for Honda after they lost Rossi.



I'm not talking about electronics. I'm talking about how once upon a time the progress was in damping etc. and they made a huge diference to the "raw human" riding it. I dread to think of the speeds we travel now were they to be tried on ancient suspension systems of say the 60's. When longer travel monoshock rears came in I remember thinking it was like cheating, they were so dramatically good.



I just see electronics as the current area of development.



Your argument that it should be all about the physical prowess I find odd, especially when you consider how base the original motorcycles were. Should we wind the clock back and make all bikes like they were in the 1920's say? Where do you draw the line?



MGP has allways been a formula that has aided/steered the development of the bike, not the rider.
 
How far you want the manufacturers to push the boundary is a matter of personal opinion (as you have said), but you offer no boundary--only a blank check made out to the MSMA in the name of science. Who is the absolutist?



Motorcycle racing is only science if there is no rider in the saddle. When you can quantify is fear, or his adrenaline, or his love of speed, or his feel for the motorcycle, maybe I will change my mind. Until then, you're dealing with a sport, and I'll ask you not to delude yourself or others with the "science" label.



Well the boundary of electronic development is a difficult one, a long discussion where the engineers, riders and manufacturers have to fight their three respective corners with their different priorities. If the sport cannot be sold to the public, it's useles. If the manufacturers see no benefit of spending R & D money, the sports stature will crumble, and if the riders would rather go and ride somewhere else then motogp will lose is status as the pinnacle of motorcycle road racing. If it was up to me i'd pick and chose certain elements of electronic development that can and can't be used for all these reasons and the result would not be policable. In reality i'd say something needs to be done, but i don't know what would please all of the neseccary sides of the table enough to get pushed through.



But besides, i think the human side of the sport is a scienc, as is almost any sport. Kenny Roberts agrees with me, but i don't have the applicable book in this bookshelf so i can't get you a quote right now. Motorcycle racing is scientific by nature, the riders have to practice and gain information by experiment so that future actions can be understood and successfully predicted.
 
Science is defined as:



"knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."



What does that really mean? Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it.




I really don't understand how racing motorcycles could be referred to as anything but science. The only way I can see that it possibly could have no science involved is if the rider walks up to a bike sitting on the grid that has not been tested or developed in anyway by any person or themselves and then starts it up and the lights go out and they race it.



The reality of course is that whether you are a weekend warrior who turns up to your local motocross track or a MotoGP rider riding a Multimillion dollar bike, at some point in time you have made a change to the bike based on observation and trial and error and some level of knowledge gained as a result. This is science.



Been sitting here trying to think of a sport that has no science involved.......still thinking........ still thinking...........
 
My opinion on electronics is that at the start of the 800 era the electronics being used were invasive due to their lack of complexity. I also think that because Stoner was not meant to be fast and win there had to be a reason for it and electronics was the only explanation that allowed everyones world to go without disruption. Because Stoner was so obviously using an unbelievable level of electronics, so much so that there was a geek in the pits with a joy stick, everybody went harder and harder with electronics because this must be the only way to be fast. Unfortunately what people found is the more the electronics intervened the slower they went. So the only answer could be that real riders can't ride fast with electronics and only the new breed of TC kids i.e. Stoner can ride fast with them. This made sense and allowed the world to continue to revolve.



As time went on teams and riders learned that this was just not true. As a result development progressed away from intervention and towards maximising the potential of the motorcycle and how the rider uses it.



Today, despite the complexity I think that electronics are far less invasive in the sport then they were in 2008 which was probably the peak of the worst of Electronics and TC.



Electronic control of a motorcycles functions are here to stay and will only get better and better and better. I suggest people stop moaning about it and just enjoy it. The fast guys are still the fast guys and would have been no matter what the rules were.
 
2002,2003 season is where it was at,it should never have progressed past that (even though Vale dominated) point,THAT was RACING proper IMO.
<