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Laguna 2011.....that pass!

Guys with less wins in twice the time and the same number of titles are legends. What makes Casey any less of a legend than say Schwantz.. They both had a win or bin attitude. They both rode .... equipment for a portion of their career.Tell me why

Thats right and there's more. Hayden, Stoner and Lorenzo have a case for legendary status purely on the basis they won championships against Rossi, knowing Rossi is the GOAT. Hell just winning a single race against the GOAT is pretty amazing, as we all know "rossi's combination of skill, mental toughness, charisma, and camera-savviness will never be duplicated. LMFAO!!!.............. [font="""]embarrassing to even think about it. LMFAO!!!" [/font]
 
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Oh wait, you said "that p..."!



Nevermind then, carry on
 
LMFAO!!! stoner already a legend? looong way to go before he can be considered a legend of motogp. 1 title in 5 years does not make a legend. give the guy a few more years as he has now the tools to go along with his skill to dominate year after year. but it's entirely laughable to suggest that he already is a legend. embarrassing to even think about it. LMFAO!!!



Guys with less wins in twice the time and the same number of titles are legends. What makes Casey any less of a legend than say Schwantz.. They both had a win or bin attitude. They both rode .... equipment for a portion of their career.Tell me why



Legendary status requires more than just results. But i think Stoner is well on his way if he's not already there
 
I think you guys are forgetting Stoners riding technique. Possibly the greatest legend of all time in that respect.



His race wins put him way up there too but for sure many who do not appreciate Stoner would insist that he needs more titles.
 
Legendary status requires more than just results. But i think Stoner is well on his way if he's not already there

There really isnt any set criteria to becoming a legend. Its all about capturing the fans imagination Some do it with outright performance, some do it with flair, charisma, and a splash of performance. Some do it by accomplishing something no one else has done, Rossi has performance, flair and charisma, something Stoner will never have. What Stoner does have is performance, and plenty of it. He also has an accomplishment that no one to date has been able to duplicate, even the greatest rider of all time. That captures my imagination. If Stoners career ended tomorrow, he would be talked about in bike racing circles from now on. I think a lot of people are reluctant to give this kid his due simply because, well, you know.
 
Is Schwantz a legend?

By all indications, yes. Even though i was a huge fan, I never understood why, but even MotoGp considers him a legend. His win total is above average, he has 1 title, he is by no means flamboyant. The numbers say he had an above average but unremarkable career. Stoner has matched, or surpassed him in any meaningful statistical category, all in half the time. Will the deniers give him his due after his 2nd title, 3rd, 4th. Whats it going to take? Considering the competition and what he achieved with what could be compared to a carpenter with a bent level, i rate him equal to any of the riders who have reached legendary status. Some people even consider Wayne Gardner a legend, even Wayne himself!
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There really isnt any set criteria to becoming a legend. Its all about capturing the fans imagination Some do it with outright performance, some do it with flair, charisma, and a splash of performance. Some do it by accomplishing something no one else has done, Rossi has performance, flair and charisma, something Stoner will never have. What Stoner does have is performance, and plenty of it. He also has an accomplishment that no one to date has been able to duplicate, even the greatest rider of all time. That captures my imagination. If Stoners career ended tomorrow, he would be talked about in bike racing circles from now on. I think a lot of people are reluctant to give this kid his due simply because, well, you know.



well said, probably the best way to describe it. schwantz captured the world's imagination with his pure will to win along with his career-long battles with rainey, never mind the other great names of his era. they loved him for his outright determination. his numbers aren't legendary, by any means. but his spirit is. if stoner stopped racing today, no chance he'd be considered a legend. a great racer for sure, but not legendary status. the only claim to legendary status for stoner is probably his legendary choke against rossi at laguna. LMFAO!!!
 
well said, probably the best way to describe it. schwantz captured the world's imagination with his pure will to win along with his career-long battles with rainey, never mind the other great names of his era. they loved him for his outright determination. his numbers aren't legendary, by any means. but his spirit is. if stoner stopped racing today, no chance he'd be considered a legend. a great racer for sure, but not legendary status. the only claim to legendary status for stoner is probably his legendary choke against rossi at laguna. LMFAO!!!

Legendary none the less
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By all indications, yes. Even though i was a huge fan, I never understood why, but even MotoGp considers him a legend.



I never understood it either, but he remains the only rider to have his number retired. Saw him ride many times, hell, stood in line behind him going through tech at Willow in the good old days, but I think his career should have been brutally overshadowed by Rainey (who had every bit the determination and far less the natural ability of Schwantz) but no, Schwantz is worshiped as a god.



Which proves that the number of titles does not decide legendary status.
 
Hang on, you can only be a legend after you finish. Casey is 25 and has a long way to go.



Not a legend yet.



But when he hangs up his helmet he will be, no doubt!
 
...Considering the competition and what he achieved with what could be compared to a carpenter with a bent level...



+1



Stoner will get consideration just for winning a lot of races (and a title) on the bike neither Melandri nor Rossi could tame. Now add to that the likely success he is going to rack up with Honda, and you have yourself a rider to remember!
 
LMFAO!!! stoner already a legend? looong way to go before he can be considered a legend of motogp. 1 title in 5 years does not make a legend. give the guy a few more years as he has now the tools to go along with his skill to dominate year after year. but it's entirely laughable to suggest that he already is a legend. embarrassing to even think about it. LMFAO!!!



People such as yourself obviously have zero ability to apply context within a debate such as this.....



As an example Kevin Schwantz had to compete on a Suzuki against riders of the calibre of Doohan and Rainey both of whom had arguably the best rides during his tenure at Suzuki and he regularly beat them. He may not have more than one world championship to show for it but just using that single statistical criteria with which to judge "legend status" shows a distinct lack of understanding about what it takes to be a great rider. The way Schwantz won races, his flamboyant style and his win it or bin attitude endeared him to millions of race fans worldwide....me included! Vision of him riding around the Macau street circuit pulling one handed monos whilst waving at photographers cowering behind the armco alone qualifies him for legend status IMHO.....They have only ever retired one racing number in the sports history and Revin Kevin has that honour with his famous number 34 - surely that must say something about his abilities that RAW statistical data does not alone suggest?



Similarly with Stoner he has only a single world championship thus far.....but lets not forget he is only 25 years old yet has been consistently faster than that other rider with multiple world championships that many insist on calling "THE GOAT"......What is more he beat said GOAT on a bike that is now apparent to everyone is a complete POS. THE GOAT is now riding said POS and is consistently nearer the middle of the field than at the front which is where Stoner was riding more often than not. More race wins, fastest laps and poles than any other rider currently on the grid and the majority of these stats on a Factory DUC POS and a satellite Honda...oh yeah but I guess you are going to tell me the GP07/08/09 was by far the best bike on the grid right?



He is closing fast on Eddie Lawsons race win tally (a four times world champ) at a much younger age....even if he doesnt win another title he will still be considered a legend due to his outstanding achievements on second rate equipment....as I said context is everything and the ability to spindoctor statistics means very little.



LMFAO at how clueless some people are
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Stoner will get consideration just for winning a lot of races (and a title) on the bike neither Melandri nor Rossi could tame.



Yes the list of top class riders and world champions who could not get to grips with the bike Stoner was winning on will get him remembered.
 
People such as yourself obviously have zero ability to apply context within a debate such as this.....



As an example Kevin Schwantz had to compete on a Suzuki against riders of the calibre of Doohan and Rainey both of whom had arguably the best rides during his tenure at Suzuki and he regularly beat them. He may not have more than one world championship to show for it but just using that single statistical criteria with which to judge "legend status" shows a distinct lack of understanding about what it takes to be a great rider. The way Schwantz won races, his flamboyant style and his win it or bin attitude endeared him to millions of race fans worldwide....me included! Vision of him riding around the Macau street circuit pulling one handed monos whilst waving at photographers cowering behind the armco alone qualifies him for legend status IMHO.....They have only ever retired one racing number in the sports history and Revin Kevin has that honour with his famous number 34 - surely that must say something about his abilities that RAW statistical data does not alone suggest?



Similarly with Stoner he has only a single world championship thus far.....but lets not forget he is only 25 years old yet has been consistently faster than that other rider with multiple world championships that many insist on calling "THE GOAT"......What is more he beat said GOAT on a bike that is now apparent to everyone is a complete POS. THE GOAT is now riding said POS and is consistently nearer the middle of the field than at the front which is where Stoner was riding more often than not. More race wins, fastest laps and poles than any other rider currently on the grid and the majority of these stats on a Factory DUC POS and a satellite Honda...oh yeah but I guess you are going to tell me the GP07/08/09 was by far the best bike on the grid right?



He is closing fast on Eddie Lawsons race win tally (a four times world champ) at a much younger age....even if he doesnt win another title he will still be considered a legend due to his outstanding achievements on second rate equipment....as I said context is everything and the ability to spindoctor statistics means very little.



LMFAO at how clueless some people are
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sorry, not buying it. most people would agree, he ain't no living legend. a great racer, for sure, but no legend. like i said, he'll get there eventually now that he's got a machine to compliment his talents. don't blow your load just yet now that you got your hands up her top. it'll happen...patience. LMFAO!!!
 
sorry, not buying it. most people would agree, he ain't no living legend. a great racer, for sure, but no legend. like i said, he'll get there eventually now that he's got a machine to compliment his talents. don't blow your load just yet now that you got your hands up her top. it'll happen...patience. LMFAO!!!

I agree with the fundamental point in logic earlier in the thread that you don't become a legend until you retire, with the implication being that if you are a legend the memory of you and your deeds lives on after you retire.



I don't think it is much of an assumption that rossi will be a legend, very likely the biggest legend of all. This doesn't mean that no-one else can or will be remembered apart from rossi, there being plenty of scope for achievements less than rossi's still to be remarkable/memorable, which is where the fundamental disagreement about these things comes in. I don't disagree that belittling rossi's achievements is unreasonable, but saying that nobody else's achievements deserve recognition is also unreasonable. Stoner and rossi will now be linked in memory, as kevin schwantz is with rainey and doohan, and as has been said fairly or unfairly unless things change it will now be remembered that stoner could win on a bike that rossi couldn't ride, and even objectively it will be hard to dismiss stoner's career record against rossi particularly if he wins this year's title. It is of course still not at all likely stoner will approach rossi's overall career and particularly his longevity at the absolute pinnacle which is what sets him apart from most among even the great/legendary riders.
 
the only claim to legendary status for stoner is probably his legendary choke against rossi at laguna. LMFAO!!!

Straws, clutching at.



More recently at laguna seca with stoner on a bike that will actually turn midcorner and rossi on a ducati valentino appeared to present him with few problems.
 
As a rider ( on technique ) Stoner is the greatest rider GP's have ever seen.



He has usurped Rossi on race wins and may usurp him in WC's by this year. ie. he may draw but since he has so many more wins than Rossi .... usurped.



I'm a Doohan fan and I rate Stoner above Doohan for technique, not sure on aggression and motivation yet but Doohan wins on that at present, however I tend to remember the Doohan that was pretty dominating and hence very confident. Wait a few years to see how Stoner develops here.



Stoner was a legend back in 07 he has got better since so I think the bopper claims that he is not a legend are just more fairytales.
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I never understood it either, but he remains the only rider to have his number retired. Saw him ride many times, hell, stood in line behind him going through tech at Willow in the good old days, but I think his career should have been brutally overshadowed by Rainey (who had every bit the determination and far less the natural ability of Schwantz) but no, Schwantz is worshiped as a god.



Which proves that the number of titles does not decide legendary status.



With all due respect.... that's a bit hyperbolic. Moreover how does one measure which rider had the greater portion of natural ability?



Seems too obvious to point out, nonetheless.... what made both riders legendary was the hammer and tongs competition and their bitter personal rivalry. Either rider's place in history would be diminished by the lack of the other; at least in the minds of all those who followed their careers while they were being made.
 
Moreover how does one measure which rider had the greater portion of natural ability?



The ability to hop on any motorcycle and go fast with little to practice on it. Schwantz could do it, I've seen him run up front in nationals on 250 and BoTT bikes with almost no time on the bike. Rainey was a studied rider who worked to be fast, and was very serious about the game.
 

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