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Kropotkin says

Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
From MotoGpmatters Valentino Rossi is complaining about the pervasiveness of electronic traction controls. I infer this is a complaint about Dani Pedrosa, since Casey Stoner claims to be using little or none of the stuff. Riding a bike nearly identical to Pedrosa's, Nicky Hayden began to find success after (reportedly) trimming the electronic controls way back. This implies that only certain riders are benefiting from a computerized nanny, and that all of them have the option of limiting its influence. Am I to believe that Rossi - who, when he was winning everything in sight, was as sideways as anyone - believes he was being trounced by Casey Stoner's tires and Dani Pedrosa's computer engineer? Has he just defined the limits of his abilities for all of us to see? Is he really that ashamed of his bike? Or is this some back-handed mind game he thinks will fool everyone next year? Either way, I consider it a fairly remarkable retreat from the greatness he once exuded.

Back to Mr. Ezepeleta... Why grant this complaint such credence? A standardized ECU makes the sport - by default - a spec series. Until we know what goal is being pursued, why is a spec ECU the suggested - or mandated - solution? It seems to be the equivalent of brain surgery with a sledge hammer.

Mr. Ezepeleta, commenting on why the tire rules needed to be changed and setting the scope of the ECU threat: "... Now something has been done, we'll see if it's enough. I want to get back to the situation we had in 2005, as far as the balance and the spectacle are concerned. " My simple answer to him is, "Well, then, you could just return to the 2005 rules!" As has been pointed out by countless others all year long, all around the world, 2007 featured too many rules changes impacting at the same time. Trying to continually tinker - in large strokes - with the rules before some kind of stability takes hold will most likely exaggerate the perceived problems.

I have been a fan of 4-wheel racing a little bit longer, and more consistently, than 2-wheel racing, but I am much more emotionally attached to the bikes. In Formula One, there is a 15-20 year-old (maybe older) theory that states, in effect, the capabilities of the cars are beyond all the safety margins, so they have to be slowed down. It was - and, somehow still continues to be - thought that slower cars would make for a better racing spectacle. Apparently, the obvious eludes Bernie Ecclestone and those around him... Ensuing rules changes like taking away turbos, taking away cylinders, taking away displacement, taking away stripes out of the contact patch, taking away a tire supplier, and on and on, have not "fixed" the "problem". Every "cost-saving" and "speed-reducing" measure begets the opposite effect. Now they've implemented a spec ECU and frozen the engine designs for the remainder of the sport's life, which is rumored to coincide with a new mandate for 4-cylinder engines and hybrid-electric technology, along with a myriad of other whims to be named later.

Yet, F1 remains a parade of colorful missiles being guided around racetracks by computers and young men with lightning-fast reflexes and remarkably strong necks. It is said that, like fighter aircraft, the cars would be more capable than the physical limits of what their human occupants can manage. We actually had this problem at a CHAMP Car race a few years ago. The demands on bloodflow to the head and extremities, and even the constitution of a driver's eyes, would be at risk if not for the imposed limits in speed and traction.

Around the same time, in the late '80's, NASCAR arrived at a similar concern and set the theoretical limit for their cars at just under a 200 M.P.H. average lap speed. This was because some of the cars began to take flight when they got turned around. As I will discuss a little more in an upcoming feature on Musco Lighting, the great majority of NASCAR tracks are oval-shaped and offer some amount of banking in the turns, along with a comparatively wide racing surface. This allows for the cars to stay in tight groups and maintain consistently high speeds. In an odd similarity to F1, the solution to the speed problem was to strangle the powerplants, even though it was clear to everybody that the engines were not the problem, the cornering speed was. What made the cars go faster around corners? The same things airplanes need to stay in the air, and the same things featured in F1... sleek bodies and wings.

When a car making a lot of downforce is turned around, the wings immediately start to make lift, which is not good for the effectiveness of the tires' contact patches. Fortunes had already been spent on shaping these cars in wind tunnels and the mold was set for the NASCAR "look". So when in doubt, strangle the engines. Currently, they have invented a new car design - drawing ever nearer to a spec series - that is actually slower than the lower-class support races run on the same tracks.

I remain a fan of both sports for the cerebral exercise of trying to follow the engineering and seeing the race-day strategies play out. This is becoming increasingly difficult, especially with NASCAR, but I love to watch things that go fast, so I invest the time when I can.

How does this relate to MotoGP? If you look closely at the details I've pointed out, NONE of them apply to motorcycle racing! I don't believe it will ever be possible to approach the physical limits of the human body's ability to sustain G-forces while only working with 2 wheels. There will not be wings and huge contact patches to eliminate the need to slow down for corners. No matter how many computers are loaded onto the things, they won't be able to do 4 G's under braking and 2 G's in turns. Perhaps it doesn't need to be pointed out, but bikes can't spin around and go backwards (and fly) the way cars can... I believe that, no matter how fast the bikes get, the rider's good sense is still what is necessary to keep the bike on the track and going the proper direction.

It SHOULD go without saying that electronic controls can be viewed as just another setting for the riders and engineers to manipulate. If there's a genius engineer back at the factory who's able to exactly mate the bike's electronics to the abilities and expectations of his rider(s), then why prohibit it? The argument over traction controls is a red herring, meant to distract from the real issue. Why would the sanctioning body need this much control of the components in a prototype series? With a spec ECU, you take away more than just an "unnatural" electronic aid for the rider, you're taking away everything that makes the 4-stroke era technologically advanced. It takes away any incentive for the manufacturers to develop anything new, so their interests in lavish spending on engineering diminish also. Why not just go back to 2-stroke, then?

In America, some of us like to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Apparently, Mr. Ez has realized he did just that since 2005, and now the "fix" needs fixin'.

Motorcycle racing is beautiful because you can see the rider's relationship to the steed he is riding. It is beautiful because a bike doesn't take up all of the space on the tarmac, so there can be more than one or two ways through most of the corners. It is beautiful because, as long as the riders can hang off the sides, drag their knees, slide the rear tires, and wheelie down the straights, it will look gloriously fast and death-defying. It should always be obvious that the average mortal cannot do what these exceptional humans and their marvelous machines can. The same cannot be said of cars.

I don't think the technology will ever surpass the motorcycle racers' physical limits, or at least not for a very long time. The beauty of being on two wheels and having to maintain balance with something that is inherently unstable is why motorcycle racing should have a longer, more attractive future than auto racing. These are the reasons Mr. Ezepeleta should not be seriously considering emulating Bernie Ecclestone and Formula 1... Physics does not require it.

The future is coming toward him, if he will just shut up and wait.

Be sure, and feel free, to share these insights with your car-loving friends who claim to not understand motorcycle racing...
posted @ 8:32 PM | Feedback (4)
A Happy New Year To All Our Readers
Let me start 2008 by wishing all of MotoGPMatters.com's readers all the best in 2008. May 2008 find you happier, healthier, faster and safer than any year before.

Let me next express my deep gratitude to all of you, the faithful readers who keep coming back, and help to bring new readers to the site. I'd also like to especially thank all of you who made a financial contribution to the site, either by donating via Paypal, or by buying something at Amazon or Grand Prix Legends through MotoGPMatters.com. I can't thank all of you by name here, but I am very grateful indeed, and it has kept me motivated.

I'd also like to apologize for the lack of new stories to appear here over the past couple of weeks, but life and illness managed to interfere with my plans. We shall be slowly getting back to full speed over the next few weeks, providing you with plenty of fascinating reading.

Finally, let's hope that the 2008 MotoGP season is more like 2006 than 2007. The omens are good: We have three world champions joining the class; the rivalry between Andrea Dovizioso and Jorge Lorenzo will make the battle for top rookie riveting; James Toseland will want to prove that it is still possible to move up from Superbikes to MotoGP; Valentino Rossi will be determined to prove that tires really do matter; Casey Stoner will want to show that he is no one-hit wonder; and there is no way that Honda will allow themselves to be caught out again like they were in 2007. 2008 has the makings of a vintage year of motorcycle racing.
 
Written like a true fan of car racing.

Brilliant condemnation of Ezy and the Dorna dimwits who are trying to maximize the number of viewers per second (despicable baby boomer logic), rather than focusing on long term growth.

However, he suggests that Ez not follow Bernie's model. If I'm not mistaken Bernie has a hand in the FIM, so Ez may not have a choice.

The Rossi dis was unnecessary. Dorna created this melee, every rider is trying to make the best of the complete and total uncertainty. Rossi has disgraced himself with his fat mouth and his underhanded tactics, but he doesn't deserve to be slighted for his remarks about traction control. Imo, that is only leg he has to stand on given the history of the sport.

I really can't believe this season and the long term tumult it appears may ensue. The progress of bike performance is as much game theory as it is technological or economic. I can't believe the people at Dorna created a new game with new stakes and new players and expected the growth trajectory of all factors (economic, technological, game competition) to remain the same.

Really bemusing.

It would be like taking the prisoner's dilemma game and modifying it so that one of the prisoner's knows he's going to die the following day. This situation is similar, some of the teams find themselves suddenly competitive, their reactions to this new situation are an unknown quantity.


Thanks for the article.
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You don't have to have a spec ECU which I agree is overkill. But you could limit the ECU system speed which would probably be as affective yet leave some discretion for the team to control areas of the bike they needed to yet not allow total control. Either way I don't think it is time yet to to it.

I am a big fan of the 800cc rule change because the bikes are better all around race machines. Maybe they could have left the fuel capacity alone...

I am in total agreement that they should wait and let the series come together. It will and 2008 will be epic.
 
I usually like the articles from Kropotkin but inside this there were a few major flaws. Her's one:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
Motorcycle racing is beautiful because you can see the rider's relationship to the steed he is riding. It is beautiful because a bike doesn't take up all of the space on the tarmac, so there can be more than one or two ways through most of the corners. It is beautiful because, as long as the riders can hang off the sides, drag their knees, slide the rear tires, and wheelie down the straights, it will look gloriously fast and death-defying. It should always be obvious that the average mortal cannot do what these exceptional humans and their marvelous machines can. The same cannot be said of cars.


WTF!
Traction control (and small bore engines) take all that away.
Low rotational mass enable faster corner entries but narrows the choise of line. Smaller engines and traction control also limits lines out of the turn while TC removes both slides and wheelies. Anyone can move their bodies and drag thir knees these days so that part is allready here for the average mortals.

And another one:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>
With a spec ECU, you take away more than just an "unnatural" electronic aid for the rider, you're taking away everything that makes the 4-stroke era technologically advanced. It takes away any incentive for the manufacturers to develop anything new, so their interests in lavish spending on engineering diminish also. Why not just go back to 2-stroke, then?

The ECU is the brain, but the brain has become a no brainer, as long as we talk about it's main (original) purpose it's a comodity that has very little development left in it. You can add all sorts of nice IO to it and expand the function affecting the mapping, but the injection and ignition mapping it self is just a lot of work. Limiting the addons is what this is about. He has absolutly no information about how an actual "standard ECU" would be like. Is it unthinkable that it would be free mapping but very limited IO capabilities? Limiting the ability to create hidden TC.
He claims that a standard ECU would stop all development but how can he say that? Limiting the single most important part that still has a lot of potential when you add the TC will automatically move development to things that actually make the bike better, rather than masking problems with electronics.
 
You'd have to really convince me if Nicky or anybody good can ride with little to none electronics against electronics and be fast.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Jan 4 2008, 01:03 AM) [snapback]105794[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
You'd have to really convince me if Nicky or anybody good can ride with little to none electronics against electronics and be fast.


Yup, that too was another oddity. These days I guess that's about the same as translate hard springs into ridgid.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Jan 3 2008, 08:16 PM) [snapback]105776[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
WTF!
Traction control (and small bore engines) take all that away.
Low rotational mass enable faster corner entries but narrows the choise of line. Smaller engines and traction control also limits lines out of the turn while TC removes both slides and wheelies.

Casey stoner at least on occasion, such as the first corner at laguna seca, appeared to be able to go fast on an unconventional line. Whether this is because he has realised the potential of tc etc better/is prepared to push closer to its limits as rossi seems to be suggesting of late or the electronics on the ducati are just better is hard to say.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Jan 4 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]105804[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Casey stoner at least on occasion, such as the first corner at laguna seca, appeared to be able to go fast on an unconventional line. Whether this is because he has realised the potential of tc etc better/is prepared to push closer to its limits as rossi seems to be suggesting of late or the electronics on the ducati are just better is hard to say.


Watch Sepang again, particularly the last corner.
Stoner Elias & Hayden were all letting the rear step out on the brakes on the approach to the last corner. Even the Motogp commentators commented on it on several occasions as being brilliant to watch. The electronics debate just like the tyre debate, will die down. It was the first season of 800's and 1 team & rider got it right straight off the bat comparative to the others. It will close up next season for sure and so will the championship.
 
Thanks for that Povol, I enjoyed the article, though I sort of skimmed over the car references.

A workable 'control' ECU has yet to be realised, I don't know if anyone has actually seriously considered how it could operate or consulted with maunfacturers on possible design/function so it's all media .........

Here's a question, how could a spec ECU work for both a screaming V4 desmosedici and a irregular firing M1 without being very very different? So, by definition at least, it can't work. Somebody clear that one up for me please!

BTW Andrew, there were many occasions when riders/teams reported posting faster lap times in 2007 with less 'electronics' dialed in.


And as frizzle rightly says....the frenzy will die down

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frizzle @ Jan 4 2008, 05:12 AM) [snapback]105809[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Watch Sepang again, particularly the last corner.
Stoner Elias & Hayden were all letting the rear step out on the brakes on the approach to the last corner. Even the Motogp commentators commented on it on several occasions as being brilliant to watch. The electronics debate just like the tyre debate, will die down. It was the first season of 800's and 1 team & rider got it right straight off the bat comparative to the others. It will close up next season for sure and so will the championship.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Jan 3 2008, 07:03 PM) [snapback]105794[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
You'd have to really convince me if Nicky or anybody good can ride with little to none electronics against electronics and be fast.

It was widely reported that the reason Haydens performance increase the last half of the season, was he finally convinced the Honda technicians to tone down considerably the traction control.Nickys roots are flat track and thats how he rides.He wants to be able to slide the bike at his whim,not a computer's.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(povol @ Jan 4 2008, 06:58 PM) [snapback]105844[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It was widely reported that the reason Haydens performance increase the last half of the season, was he finally convinced the Honda technicians to tone down considerably the traction control.Nickys roots are flat track and thats how he rides.He wants to be able to slide the bike at his whim,not a computer's.


Yea i agree but its not enough to win a race and its not the way forward anymore.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(povol @ Jan 4 2008, 07:58 PM) [snapback]105844[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It was widely reported that the reason Haydens performance increase the last half of the season, was he finally convinced the Honda technicians to tone down considerably the traction control.Nickys roots are flat track and thats how he rides.He wants to be able to slide the bike at his whim,not a computer's.


But that says absolutly nothing about TC. It only says that Hayden - HRC has some sort of communication problem. It most definatly doesn't say that TC doesn't matter. These reports as as inaccurate as they can be. What did they actually turn down?
- General gain on the overall output of from the tc unit?
- or just adjusted P, I or D on some of the regulators.
- adjusted sensitivity on one of the inputs
add an additional few hundred other combinations here

A general up/down change is an oversimplyfying of the situation. I bet they have regulator-like possibilities changing all sorts of parameters for several regulators. That enable sensitivity in one situation and less sensetivity in another. Every rider depend on it today, some less, some more, but none would stand a chance without.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skidmark @ Jan 4 2008, 03:56 PM) [snapback]105838[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Here's a question, how could a spec ECU work for both a screaming V4 desmosedici and a irregular firing M1 without being very very different? So, by definition at least, it can't work. Somebody clear that one up for me please!


Well AFAIK the basic unit of the yamha and the ducati is the same.
For the actual fiering pulses (except delays) they probably still use some kind of pickup on axel. That's an input that doesn't disapear. Change the pickup positions and you have a new fiering order.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Babelfish @ Jan 4 2008, 11:09 PM) [snapback]105868[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Well AFAIK the basic unit of the yamha and the ducati is the same.
For the actual fiering pulses (except delays) they probably still use some kind of pickup on axel. That's an input that doesn't disapear. Change the pickup positions and you have a new fiering order.


It seems engine development is becoming an even more important factor over design and aerodynamics.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Jan 5 2008, 12:11 PM) [snapback]105887[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
It seems engine development is becoming an even more important factor over design and aerodynamics.


<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Jan 4 2008, 11:19 AM) [snapback]105846[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Yea i agree but its not enough to win a race and its not the way forward anymore.


When are the Brits going to quit wishing for corner speed to rule again?

You have to be able to ride both styles to be successful, but the only reason corner speed exists is to save tires and preserve bodily health. As soon as it's time to make haste, the bike control experts check out. Rossi rides perfectly with both wheels, same with Stoner. Pedrosa only rides well with the front, Nicky only rides well with the back. Melandri doesn't know which one to ride on, Hopper rides on both equally all the time, and RDP rides on no wheels.

Maybe if more people would embrace "the real future" of progressive riding (rear wheel steer), Britain could produce another champion. Then the rest of us could stop hearing all the legends about Barry Machine and the championships he lost when a real rider showed up.
<


Rossi stole Britain's thunder by making Italy the winningest nation in premier class history, yet you roll out the red carpet and the team of fluffers? What gives?

And don't say you're above national pride because nothing is more arrogant than that.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 5 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But that says absolutly nothing about TC. It only says that Hayden - HRC has some sort of communication problem. It most definatly doesn't say that TC doesn't matter. These reports as as inaccurate as they can be. What did they actually turn down?
- General gain on the overall output of from the tc unit?
- or just adjusted P, I or D on some of the regulators.
- adjusted sensitivity on one of the inputs
add an additional few hundred other combinations here

A general up/down change is an oversimplyfying of the situation. I bet they have regulator-like possibilities changing all sorts of parameters for several regulators. That enable sensitivity in one situation and less sensetivity in another. Every rider depend on it today, some less, some more, but none would stand a chance without.



Um I think you have a funny idea of what that Marelli stuff does ..... the system is pretty much numerous purpose built sensors and actuators that one programs the use of in software .... I would not venture to assume that the software ends up anything like a PID controller ..... this is Motogp ... its cutting edge ..... I would not think they would have anything as "standard" as inputs such as for an off the shelf general PID controller.

Each bike programmer would have developed thier own methods and manipulations of the inputs and outputs ...... And how well he translates what he can adjust for the rider, to the rider, is one of the reasons I think Ducati was so successful.

Why anyone would want to wind the clock back to the 2 stroke era of electronics is incomprehensible to me, it is ridiculous to suggest it. The 4 strokes need it .... just on engine braking alone I would think introducing a standard ECU would leave the engineers feeling they have been forced to produce a dangerous to ride motorcycle.

I think standard ECU is perhaps the wackiest of all the "Rossi would have won if only" myths .... its nott only downright dangerous but it changes the compexion of motogp in suc a drastic fashion as to make me wonder if the manufacturers will not koin forces and threaten to walk out.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alex29 @ Jan 5 2008, 05:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
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I mean things like aerodynamics can get you a small advantage but electronics, engine management can also produce gains at a price and this is where the smaller teams cannot compete.