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Is this guy a prophet or what

Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Ran across a last year's article after Pedrosa had taken out Hayden and almost cost him the title.It was Dutch Gp writer and he said

But what now? Hayden has a brand new, shiny two-year contract to ride with Repsol Honda. Dani Pedrosa has another year to go of his two-year contract. Alberto Puig goes where Pedrosa goes, and has too many fingers in HRC pies to be extracted cleanly. But the situation at Repsol Honda is clearly untenable. It's almost inconceivable that Pedrosa and Hayden will be able to share a pit box next year, yet that is what they are condemned to. It is hard to believe that the combination of Pedrosa and Hayden will prove fruitful in developing a bike and fighting for a title, with so much distrust and bad blood between them. So, unless big changes are made, Repsol Honda is not going to be able to function as a team next year.

Everybody wonders how Honda got it so wrong with the new 800cc bike.
Maybe this has a little to do with it
 
Err I don't think there's any problem between Nicky and Dani so bad that wont make them be teammates. So that shouldn't be a problem for developing the bike.

IMO it's the engineers at Honda the ones that need to step up not the riders cause underpowered unreliable engines has nothing to do with rider input, and that is one of the main issues with the RC212V.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 13 2007, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everybody wonders how Honda got it so wrong with the new 800cc bike.
Maybe this has a little to do with it
I remember this article and it had more to do with the crash and fallout than Honda's inability to produce a competitive 800. But good call on the development aspect. Also, A. Puig will never allow the "other" teammate to have success over Pedrosa if he can help it. Hell he blamed Hayden for the Portugal crash--which is all one needs to know about the integrity of this man.

Just for the fun of it, I would have liked to see a Pedrosa/Lorenzo team. (Like putting to roosters in a cage.)
 
Puig is Dani's manager, which is a bit like being his lawyer, he will never blame his own driver as will all the rider managers in the world.

It's starting to piss me off the amount of slack this guy receives for doing for just doing his job.

And those who challenge his moral integrity should have in mind that if it weren't for Puig's generosity the leader of the championship wouldn't even be a pro bike racer.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Jul 13 2007, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Err I don't think there's any problem between Nicky and Dani so bad that wont make them be teammates.
Disagree. I may have been a bit harsh to Pedrosa in the past, but I think the problem is he has the devil whispering in his ear. Teammates you say, well at what point does this take meaning--say one of the two is poised to win the championship and the other can help (or at least not impede) this to become a reality. This is one of the few things I admire about Edwards, he knows what this means.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Jul 13 2007, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Puig is Dani's manager, which is a bit like being his lawyer, he will never blame his own driver as will all the rider managers in the world.

It's starting to piss me off the amount of slack this guy receives for doing for just doing his job.
Yeah, that's a good characterization. Lawyers often make a case for the guilty. But to blame the innocent is a bit much.

Doing his job? Is part of that job to impede the progress of the "other" teammate? Puig thinks he is on a one man team and the world revolves around Pedrosa.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Jul 13 2007, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Disagree. I may have been a bit harsh to Pedrosa in the past, but I think the problem is he has the devil whispering in his ear. Teammates you say, well at what point does this take meaning--say one of the two is poised to win the championship and the other can help (or at least not impede) this to become a reality. This is one of the few things I admire about Edwards, he knows what this means.

With teammates I just mean they work for the same team, they both fight to win and are not there to help each other (unless it benefits the team as a whole).
That's how most MotoGP teams operate and one of the things I like about MotoGP over F1 (where team orders and #1 status drivers are common).

Colin Edwards is more or less Rossi's lapdog, he's there to help Rossi with setups and tyre choices in a team (the only one on the grid) that is focused on the Italian and the only reason they employ Colin is because he accepts his position in the team and wont challenge Rossi (not that he's good enough to do it anyways).
Colin chose money over the chance to fight for glory when he went to Aprilia, and when later he went to Yamaha with Rossi which is perfectly understandable, but hardly admirable IMO.

I'm quite tired of discussing the Portugal incident cause there's nothing else than riders fighting to win and one making a mistake that affected another. Something that happens all the time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Doing his job? Is part of that job to impede the progress of the "other" teammate? Puig thinks he is on a one man team and the world revolves around Pedrosa.

Impede?? Can you elaborate on that because I have yet to see Puig pouring sugar in Nicky's fuel tank or puncturing his tyres.
AFAIK he's not related with Nicky's job in any way, and blaming Puig for Nicky's (so far) lacklustre season is laughable.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Jul 13 2007, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>With teammates I just mean they work for the same team, they both fight to win and are not there to help each other (unless it benefits the team as a whole).


Colin Edwards is more or less Rossi's lapdog...
Colin chose money over the chance to fight for glory .


Impede?? Can you elaborate
Hi Teo. I see we have much different perspective about the Repsol "team" and the influence that A. Puig wields.

I'm glad you said: "Teammates....unless it benefits the team as a whole." I think this is the point, and I couldn't have said it better. I agree there are no team orders, but certainly that doesn't mean you impede. Sure he may not help, but to hinder is another concept. But like you said, perhaps a little cooperation may be in order if "it benefits the team as a whole" which I believe Pedrosa/Puig were not willing to neither consider nor do. Perhaps the crash as you say was just two guys racing (though I disagree); however, Pedrosa's initial reaction combined with the post race comments, was the indication to me that Pedrosa/Puig would never cooperate in the development of any success for the "team" but only for themselves.

So you ask why I say "Impede". Well when you have two riders and a bike that clearly need developing; and one is not willing to share data and information because it may aid the other for success has a 'hindering' (impeding) effect on the "team as a whole".

So no, I'm not saying this explains Hayden's performance--which I think you infused to distract from the point and change the debate, but rather the lack of success for the entire factory “team”.

As far as Edwards is concerned, I think he genuinely trying to win but his ability and playing second fiddle have not aided his success on the track. Nonetheless, he understands the role of a teammate (and the special nuance this entails) unlike Pedrosa/Puig.
 
Here is the whole article.Good Read

In turn six, on the fifth lap of the Portuguese Grand Prix in Estoril, the race, Nicky Hayden's title hopes, and a large part of the world's motorcycling fans exploded.

Seconds after Dani Pedrosa's impetuous passing attempt on Hayden, taking both riders out, even the official MotoGP website's live video feed went into meltdown, depriving thousands of shocked US fans of the aftermath of the resultant crash, and the thrilling end to a literally unbelievable race. A wave of shock went through all who watched, and once incredulous brains had finally come to terms with what had happened, the same question filled millions of heads: How could this have been allowed to happen?

Despite the almost murderous intent assigned to the crash, mostly by American fans, it was not a particularly unusual incident. In fact, it was fairly reminiscent of a crash earlier in the year at the Sachsenring, when Kenny Roberts Jr got into a turn too hot and took Makoto Tamada out, on Tamada's best race of the year so far. The real difference was, of course, that Kenny Jr and Tamada were riders on different teams, fighting for a top five showing around mid-season. Pedrosa took out Hayden, ostensibly the number one rider on his own Repsol Honda team, in the penultimate race of the year, as Hayden was edging ever closer to his first world championship, and the first title for Honda since Valentino Rossi left three years earlier.

If it had happened in race two, there would have been an enormous hullabaloo: If the first rule of racing is that your teammate is the first person you have to beat, the second rule of racing is that you should under no circumstances take him out directly. But to do it with just two races to go, thereby converting your teammate's twelve point lead over the greatest motorcycle racer of all time into an eight point deficit, is beyond explanation, and seems almost beyond belief. So, how was it allowed to happen?

The most obvious answer is a pass made by Pedrosa on Hayden a lap earlier, in the same place. Nicky Hayden, in his effort to stay as close to Valentino Rossi as possible, put a pretty robust move on Pedrosa going into Turn 6, getting up the inside and forcing Pedrosa to stand the bike up and run wide. This seems to have riled the young Spaniard to such a degree that he tried a reckless move, trying to stuff his bike ahead of Hayden's when there was no room, something you might expect from a hot-headed rookie in the 125 class, but not from a three-time world champion, and a rider usually considered mature beyond his tender age.

But that only answers a part of the question. The real question is, what made Pedrosa even consider trying to race against his teammate, endangering both himself and his team mate, as well as his team, his sponsors, and the manufacturer's hope of revenge against Rossi? That is a much longer and more complex story.

Alberto Puig, Pedrosa's Svengali-like mentor and friend, let slip a glimpse of the underlying problems in comments he made after the race, blaming Hayden for causing the crash by braking too hard, and asserting Pedrosa had every right to challenge Hayden for a position as he still had 'a mathematical chance of the title'. Puig is a very powerful figure in the paddock, running teams in the lower classes, as well as the MotoGP Academy, widely acknowledged as the best route into premier class racing for young riders. His influence is hard to exaggerate, and when you add in his forceful personality, known for attempting to silence those who criticize his riders, this makes him a potentially disruptive figure in any team. He is, like so many people involved at the very highest levels of professional sport, utterly driven, and people who are so driven often find it difficult to keep a sense of perspective. Alberto Puig is concerned with only one thing: that the riders he coaches should win. Nothing else matters.

In a sense, this is totally understandable: He is paid to nurture young talent to produce winning riders, and he is remarkably good at his job. But his focus and his drive rubs off on his protegees, and can turn them into single-minded, dour automatons, concerned only with their own performance, and little else.

The problem is, of course, that winning championships in MotoGP needs a team. A single rider simply cannot handle the amount of testing it takes to develop a modern racing prototype into a winning motorcycle, and the sponsors, who pour millions of dollars into funding this development, need two bikes running to ensure that their logo is kept permanently in the public gaze. For the sponsor, running two bikes is a way of hedging their bets, so that if one rider should fall, or fail, then there is still a good chance of the other being in the public eye.

So, the racing paradox is that to reach the very top level of racing, you have to be utterly dedicated to your own success. But to remain at the very top level of racing, you need to be aware that you are a part of a team. Being part of a team means that occasionally, you have to make your own interests subservient to those of your team mate. For anyone dedicated to winning, this is hard, but in doing so, you hope to buy yourself enough credit to get your own shot in the future.

This is a lesson that has been totally lost on HRC since the beginning of the season. When Dani Pedrosa moved up to MotoGP from the 250 class, he was welcomed into HRC's factory Repsol Honda team as the champion elect, the rider who would finally bring to and end Honda's humiliation at the hands of the prodigal Valentino Rossi. He wasn't expected to do this in his first year; 2006 was meant as a learning year, so he could get used to the ferocious power of a big four-stroke, and learn to set these bikes up properly, to be ready for his first serious title attempt in 2007. His team mate, Nicky Hayden, was set to work developing the RC211V, riding what is to all intents and purposes a 990cc version of the 2007 bike with which Pedrosa is meant to win the title.

Unfortunately, reality interfered, and half way through the season, Nicky Hayden found himself with a commanding championship lead, and every chance of taking the title for Honda a year ahead of plan. What's more, Pedrosa, in his apprentice year, had proven to be much faster than anyone had expected, and was sitting comfortably in second place, ready to pick up the ball should Hayden drop it. As Valentino Rossi started to close the gap to Hayden, race by race, questions about team orders were waved away as being entirely theoretical, and not something that needed to be addressed at that point of the season. But Rossi continued to close the gap, averaging well over the nine points he needed to outscore Hayden by each race.

To most observers, the question of team orders had moved from the theoretical into the realm of necessity by Motegi. And with Pedrosa's poor showing in the rain at Phillip Island putting him out of contention for the title in all but the most mathematical sense, it seemed like a no-brainer that Pedrosa would do what he needed to to assist Hayden's title challenge. Team PR man Chris Herring's denial that no team orders were in place was greeted with much nudging and winking. As the race turned out, Pedrosa was never really in a position to do anything to help Hayden, running wide on the first lap, and having to fight his way through the field. The matter was left unanswered. For the moment.

So, as the teams headed to Estoril, team orders were once again the talk of the paddock. Rossi had closed to within 12 points of Hayden, and Pedrosa's mediocre showing at Motegi had all but ruled him out of contention for the title. So when HRC officials once again insisted that no team orders would be issued, their denials were met with incredulity, if not outright hilarity. HRC would not encourage Dani Pedrosa to help his team mate win Honda its first title for three years? Impossible! Ridiculous!! We had had our doubts about HRC for giving Hayden parts to test at crucial times in the year, when a good result seemed to us mere observers more important than a revised swing arm, and these doubts had only been reinforced by Hayden's serial clutch woes, but surely the most successful motorcycle racing organization in the world, the company which had won over 200 premier class races, and 16 world titles, would not pass up a golden opportunity like this?

That Pedrosa then took out his team mate in an act of vindictive self-assertion was proof, if any were needed, that HRC had lost its way. The universal shock at what had happened was not just because someone had taken out the rider leading the title race; It was much more the shock of realizing just how horribly wrong things had gone for HRC and the Repsol Honda team. The once-mighty team, the dominant force in the MotoGP paddock, had somehow metamorphosed into a bunch of argumentative, bumbling amateurs, riven by internal strife.

Pedrosa's pass was attempted with impunity, because seemingly no one inside the team had told him he shouldn't do that. His mentor Alberto Puig, it is said, had positively encouraged Pedrosa to fight for every inch against everyone, whether they be the current or the prospective world champion. Since joining Repsol Honda, he had been treated as a future world champion, been given everything he asked for, and seen the team bow under the weight of the pressure Puig applied on Pedrosa's behalf. At no point did he consider it his duty to help out his team mate, as Pedrosa considered himself to be Honda's number one rider, lured into this notion by the lack of resistance HRC had shown to Puig's belligerence. Pedrosa's body language after the crash, getting up and walking away, without so much as a glance at his teammate, spoke volumes about how he viewed his teammate.

In the post-race interview Nicky Hayden gave, he came as close as he has ever come to openly criticizing HRC. As he spoke, he gave away perhaps more than he meant to, letting slip the fact that, in contrast to what he had said at the time, it hadn't always been his choice to run the development equipment for the 2007 bike, and that at a certain point in the season, he felt he should have been given the tools he needed to defend his title lead properly, rather than having to fight his way up from 17th position after cooking his clutch, through no fault of his own. The cracks were finally starting to show, and the picture you could glimpse through them was an ugly one: tales of a constant struggle to be taken seriously as a title contender, and to be treated as the top rider at Repsol, not just some test rider for the boy wonder to come.

The point at which the Repsol Honda situation moved from the sublime to the ridiculous for me was after Hayden renewed his contract with HRC for another two years. It turned out that the main sticking point had been Hayden's demands that he be given at least equal treatment with Dani Pedrosa. It seemed to me that if you have a rider who is going to finally get revenge on Valentino Rossi for you, and win the MotoGP title after too many years in the wilderness, you treat him like a warrior king, and give him whatever he wants. You don't beat him down and make him feel like Mr Second Place by holding out for so long on a little appreciation. That Hayden remained as focused and confident as he did is a testimony to his psychological strength, and is in spite of Honda, not because of them.

But what now? Hayden has a brand new, shiny two-year contract to ride with Repsol Honda. Dani Pedrosa has another year to go of his two-year contract. Alberto Puig goes where Pedrosa goes, and has too many fingers in HRC pies to be extracted cleanly. But the situation at Repsol Honda is clearly untenable. It's almost inconceivable that Pedrosa and Hayden will be able to share a pit box next year, yet that is what they are condemned to. It is hard to believe that the combination of Pedrosa and Hayden will prove fruitful in developing a bike and fighting for a title, with so much distrust and bad blood between them. So, unless big changes are made, Repsol Honda is not going to be able to function as a team next year.

There has already been some talk of punishment, the most likely scapegoat being Tsutomu Ishii, HRC's General Manager. But while Alberto Puig stays in pit crew, there will never be enough room for two riders capable of winning a title. For Puig, it's Pedrosa or nothing. If HRC were sensible, it would be nothing. I fear it will be Pedrosa.
 
The only good honda is a honda with an aussie on it. There are no aussies on hondas so therefore its an OFFICIAL piece of pus motorcycle.
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I'll be honest, I have only glanced through Povol's lon post..

But, Honda's policy is to not give team orders. Nicky knew that going in and it is unreasonable for him to expect it. Dani did not take Nicky out intentionally. It is racing and $hit happens. Pedrosa immediately apologized for the incident.

the incident is water under the bridge.. Nicky won the championship. Now, its up to him to prove that he is, at the least, the best Honda rider out there and shut the nay sayers up.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/motogp/33096/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>“I have always said that Honda never, ever makes any team orders,” Horiike said.

“If we make team orders then this is not good for anyone -- not for the fans, for the riders, for the mechanics or anyone in the team. We will not do it.”

American ace Hayden says he has not heard a word about team orders within the HRC squad, although he privately hopes that he could count on Pedrosa’s backup in a tight championship.
 
Here are the quotes I thought most interesting and prophetic. Sadly, true for Hayden.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 13 2007, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Alberto Puig, Pedrosa's Svengali-like mentor and friend, let slip a glimpse of the underlying problems in comments he made after the race, blaming Hayden for causing the crash

Puig is a very powerful figure in the paddock, running teams in the lower classes, as well as the MotoGP Academy, widely acknowledged as the best route into premier class racing for young riders.

His influence is hard to exaggerate, and when you add in his forceful personality, known for attempting to silence those who criticize his riders, this makes him a potentially disruptive figure in any<u> team</u>.

He is, like so many people involved at the very highest levels of professional sport, utterly driven, and people who are so driven often find it difficult to keep a sense of perspective. Alberto Puig is concerned with only one thing: that the riders he coaches should win. <u>Nothing else matters</u>.

In a sense, this is totally understandable: He is paid to nurture young talent to produce winning riders, and he is remarkably good at his job. But his focus and his drive rubs off on his protegees, and can turn them into single-minded, dour automatons, concerned only with their own performance, and little else.

The problem is, of course, that winning championships in MotoGP needs a <u>team</u>. A single rider simply cannot handle the amount of testing it takes to develop a modern racing prototype into a winning motorcycle, and the sponsors, who pour millions of dollars into funding this development, need two bikes running to ensure that their logo is kept permanently in the public gaze.

So, the racing paradox is that to reach the very top level of racing, you have to be utterly dedicated to your own success. But to remain at the very top level of racing, you need to be aware that you are a part of a team. Being part of a team means that occasionally, you have to make your own interests subservient to those of your team mate. For anyone dedicated to winning, this is hard, but in doing so, you hope to buy yourself enough credit to get your own shot in the future.

This is a lesson that has been totally lost on HRC since the beginning of the season. When Dani Pedrosa moved up to MotoGP from the 250 class, he was welcomed into HRC's factory Repsol Honda team as the champion elect,

His team mate, Nicky Hayden, was set to work developing the RC211V, riding what is to all intents and purposes a 990cc version of the 2007 bike with which Pedrosa is meant to win the title.

Unfortunately, reality interfered, and half way through the season, Nicky Hayden found himself with a commanding championship lead

The once-mighty team, the dominant force in the MotoGP paddock, had somehow metamorphosed into a bunch of argumentative, bumbling amateurs, riven by internal strife.

Pedrosa's pass was attempted with impunity, because seemingly no one inside the team had told him he shouldn't do that. His mentor Alberto Puig, it is said, had positively encouraged Pedrosa to fight for every inch against everyone, whether they be the current or the prospective world champion.

Since joining Repsol Honda, he (Pedrosa) had been treated as a future world champion, been given everything he asked for, and seen the team bow under the weight of the pressure Puig applied on Pedrosa's behalf. At no point did he consider it his duty to help out his team mate, as Pedrosa considered himself to be Honda's number one rider, lured into this notion by the lack of resistance HRC had shown to Puig's belligerence. Pedrosa's body language after the crash, getting up and walking away, without so much as a glance at his teammate, spoke volumes about how he viewed his teammate.


The point at which the Repsol Honda situation moved from the sublime to the ridiculous for me was after Hayden renewed his contract with HRC for another two years. It turned out that the main sticking point had been Hayden's demands that he be given at least equal treatment with Dani Pedrosa. It seemed to me that if you have a rider who is going to finally get revenge on Valentino Rossi for you, and win the MotoGP title after too many years in the wilderness, you treat him like a warrior king, and give him whatever he wants. You don't beat him down and make him feel like Mr Second Place by holding out for so long on a little appreciation. That Hayden remained as focused and confident as he did is a testimony to his psychological strength, and is in spite of Honda, not because of them.

But what now? Hayden has a brand new, shiny two-year contract to ride with Repsol Honda. Dani Pedrosa has another year to go of his two-year contract. Alberto Puig goes where Pedrosa goes, and has too many fingers in HRC pies to be extracted cleanly.

But the situation at Repsol Honda is clearly untenable. It's almost inconceivable that Pedrosa and Hayden will be able to share a pit box next year, yet that is what they are condemned to. It is hard to believe that the combination of Pedrosa and Hayden will prove fruitful in developing a bike and fighting for a title, with so much distrust and bad blood between them. So, unless big changes are made, Repsol Honda is not going to be able to function as a team next year.

But while Alberto Puig stays in pit crew, there will never be enough room for two riders capable of winning a title. For Puig, it's Pedrosa or nothing. If HRC were sensible, it would be nothing. I fear it will be Pedrosa.


Well I guess that pretty much summarizes the situation at Repsol. Any questions about A. Puig and his influence are fairly clear to me, though I knew it before I read this article.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 13 2007, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll be honest, I have only glanced through Povol's lon post..

But, Honda's policy is to not give team orders.

Nicky knew that going in and it is unreasonable for him to expect it. Dani did not take Nicky out intentionally.
The point of Povol's post is not to rehash the crash, as you and Teo surmise. But it is to shed some light on their development problems as a "team" and factory effort, and where some of this failure my come from. Comment on this.
 
I'd like to know who this writer is. he was weaved in a lot of speculation over very little facts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Being part of a team means that occasionally, you have to make your own interests subservient to those of your team mate. Doing this is illegal in F-1. I donlt know if MotoGP has any rules around team orders, but it is is definetly unsportsmanlike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>When Dani Pedrosa moved up to MotoGP from the 250 class, he was welcomed into HRC's factory Repsol Honda team as the champion elect Would any one expect any less given his track record? what was Nicky's track record at that time? He has already been racing a factory bike for 3 years.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>His team mate, Nicky Hayden, was set to work developing the RC211V, riding what is to all intents and purposes a 990cc version of the 2007 bike with which Pedrosa is meant to win the title. Actually honda was bending over backwards to modify the bike to suit Hayen's wants. Pedrosa was already fast (atleast faster than Hayden was in his rookie year) on the same bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Pedrosa's body language after the crash, getting up and walking away, without so much as a glance at his teammate, spoke volumes about how he viewed his teammate. Complete speculation on Pedrosa's "body language". Here is Dani's statement
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>“What can I say? I made a mistake and I’m really sorry. It’s the first time I’ve hit another rider in my career – it’s never happened before in practice or racing in six years and it’s happened at the worst moment that I could do it. Obviously I’m very unhappy and Nicky is not happy and I just want to apologize because I made a mistake. I said sorry to Nicky and that I can understand that he is very upset – I wish I could change it. I didn’t want to pass him at that moment. I braked and my rear wheel came off the ground and then it touched the ground again I got a little more speed and I couldn’t stop the bike and there was nowhere to go. I have a fracture in my little finger but we have time for it to be ok for Valencia.”

I could go on.. But, I think it would be pointless. Many people already have their favorite riders. But, being more objective would help.

Here is a link to an article that I think is more objective about HRC's woes:Friendly Fire: How Honda HRC Failed Miserably in Portugal


And regarding the Dani Hayden crash: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Pedrosa was wise not to try and apologise to Nicky on the spot because Hayden was in a red rage and it would have been ugly. To his credit, Pedrosa did go to Hayden’s motorhome shortly after to apologise and, more to his credit, stood for Nicky giving him a piece of his mind. Hayden accepted the apology, shook hands, but told Pedrosa, “All you can do to make up for this is finish behind me and in front of Rossi in Valencia.”

Personally, I am for teams that allow their riders to their best, regardless of what is best for the team? Last thing we need is for gian corporations to control the outcomes of competetive professional sports. If a rider chooses to let his teammate win, then thats up to him.

I wish Nicky the best. He did well in the last race. He should let his riding do the talking by continuing to beat Pedrosa. Criticizing Honda (as some have speculated that he was going to) will get him no where.

What I'd really like to know is what caused Nicky's engine to blow up in practise?
 
Jumkie,i have come to the conclusion that there is a communication gap between the ponds.Not saying its anyones fault but alot is lost in translation.You knew the point of the post and others took it as a slam to Pedrosa.I guess if you are a Pedrosa fan you go into defense mode whenever the event is mentioned, which is understandable,i do the same thing when somebody slams Hayden.If the subject gets our hackels up 9 months after the fact,imagine the feelings that might live inside the 2 participants.It is very possible for that to impede both of their progressions.
 
Well that article is just the view of a very pissed off American journalist right after Portugal '06.

It was proved wrong just 2 weeks later when in Valencia Dani worked for Nicky covering his back, riding behind Nicky all the race without even once trying to overtake in a clear example of HRC working as a team (team orders).
Which I think were morally justified and logical in that case because at that point only one HRC rider was in the fight for the title (Nicky) so for the benefit of the whole team Dani had to do the Edwards role.
Unlike in Portugal where both riders were fighting for the championship.

About developing the bike I'm not too sure what you mean, Honda has 6 bikes and uses data from all of them , I guess you meant that Dani didn't share his setup data with Nicky which is quite normal since they are rivals, and I bet if Dani doesn't share his, neither does Nicky. Which I hardly think is an issue since both riders are completely different (physically and in style) so their ideal setups will be different.
And anyway the boss in HRC is NOT Puig, so if they're told to share data they WILL have to, like it or not.

That article portrays Puig like if he were the The Godfather, pulling the strings from the whole Honda organzation to his will. But the truth is that guy doesn't have any kind of power to decide important things in the HRC team. So you think he's an ..., welll maybe you're right, but still in that case he's an ... that doesn't have the power to affect Nicky's situation in the team.
 
[quote name='Teomolca' date='Jul 14 2007, 06:36 AM' post='78361']
Well that article is just the view of a very pissed off American journalist right after Portugal '06.

Read the 2nd sentence of the very first post.I included that for this very reason.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 14 2007, 07:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only good honda is a honda with an aussie on it. There are no aussies on hondas so therefore its an OFFICIAL piece of pus motorcycle.
<


Hear Hear...what wise words! Son ofD... this is classic poetry and if the aussies are riding the Hondas it will add the proverbial Motion...TOTALLY AGREE!!!
Just put CV & AW on the Repsol HRC and then you will see things happen!!!...get rid of Pooh, DP & NH....and that should fix all of Hondas problems ..lol
<
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (crvlvr @ Jul 13 2007, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here is a link to an article that I think is more objective about HRC's woes:Friendly Fire: How Honda HRC Failed Miserably in Portugal
And regarding the Dani Hayden crash:

Yes Crvlvr, Thank you for this great article, I agree this article is objective, and it <u>support</u> the Dutch GP writer's account of the incident but more importantly, it sheds light on what may be an unconstructive reality at Honda/Repsol (which is the point of this thread).

Like I said before, the article posted by Povol was to give a little insight to what may be a problem at Honda as far as developing a "factory" bike by their "factory" riders. (Yes, there are other Honda teams on the grid, but hardly a full support or two way street, just ask Melandri).

Yes, unfortunately, the crash incident is sighted here, but is not the point, but rather the fodder and revelations that came to light. Yes, the crash is history and we all have are view points of what happened--I already talked about it until we were all blue in the face, yet our opinions did not change much. So don't get stuck on rehashing the crash but rather the underlying reasons and environment that lead to it and that still exist. Yes they were both civil in the next race, but in spite of that the underlying reality continues to exist--it’s still all about Pedrosa at Honda/Repsol and this climate is impeding the progress of the team (of which Hayden is a member).

As far as A. Puig and Pedrosa are concerned. I think both these articles are in complete argreement as to their perspective and status with Factory Honda. As far as Puig's influence, well I think the evidence is clear how much he wields and obviously this effects his teammate whether you accept it or not, but that's the reality. Oh, don't just take my word for it; notice a quote below from the Honda boss himself. Not to mention the main sponsor Repsol's quote. (Which I have made the case before but a few still don’t believe it (tom).

Quotes from the "more objective" article:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>many other long-time Grand Prix journalists, simply assumed that was a public statement and that the reality would be different, that someone of authority would put an hand on Dani’s shoulder and remind him that he worked for Honda .... Dani took out his own teammate…a “friendly fire” incident.

"Friendly fire" doesn't mean they are friends. It is a term used when somebody from your side (usually refered in battle between soldiers) that you were killed by one of your own comrades. This is a bad thing.

But what is interesting, is this sense that Pedrosa has, this idea that he can ride with impunity because the message has been from all sides that its only about him, thus the quote saying “he works for Honda” in other words, he is part of a bigger picture (something he is not conscience of). It seems nothing has changed this year, and this ideation is unconstructive in a team effort.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And I can only imagine that team owners from professional championships like NASCAR and F1 must still be laughing at the ludicrous spectacle of Pedrosa out of control up the inside, bouncing off the curb, losing the front and torpedoing his teammate.

I knew that the Spaniard would be furious. Dani Pedrosa is a three-time world champion with very thin skin when it comes to being passed, especially when the pass is aggressive.

A little inside to both his personality and the complex that has been imparted to him by his authority figures (Puig).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>when I wrote in my Motociclismo column that Lorenzo and passed Pedrosa “more times in a single race than his other rivals had passed him all season” (only a slight exaggeration), Dani’s manager and mentor Alberto Puig complained, first to my editor

The entourage that shields this very talented rider is not large but it is very protective.

It doesn't take a lot of people telling you that its all about you, just a few very power ones.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The problem is that Dani has never before been in a position where his teammate is out-performing him in the points table. The whole concept of “team orders” is distasteful and foreign to him, I imagine, but, more importantly, none of the authority figures surrounding him seem to have told him that this is not just about him.

Do you really think this reality changed over one crash incident. No. It continues to be the reality today.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Furthermore, the marketing people from Repsol YPF, the Spanish-Argentine petroleum and natural gas company, seem not to care at all what Hayden does. I have been told by Repsol insiders that “Dani is why we are here.”

The famous line: "Show me the money!" Well guess who has it--Repsol. and if they are saying Pedrosa is the man and nothing else matters, then really, what case do you have to believe otherwise. Oh but wait, it doesn't end there, that's just the sponsor with the money saying this, lets see what the actual factory boss thinks about this concept...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In 2005 a Spanish paper published a article in which Suguru Kanazawa, president of HRC and the ultimate racing boss, was quoted saying, “We believe of all the riders at this moment Dani Pedrosa is the only one capable of beating Rossi.”

Amazing! So where do you think his support and effort will be? Any questions?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>But when Pedrosa lost it and took out Hayden, old-timers were stunned that a Honda rider would put his championship-leading teammate in danger at all, let alone doing it on the fifth lap of a 28-lap race.

Ok, maybe it was just a racing incident, nothing more. I'll accept that in the context of this thread, but what does this say about the "team"? Well the quote below may shed some light. And that is the point here. Povol rightly said it was like being prophetic because it sure seems light this unconstructive perspective of what a "team" means has been mired in a unsuccessful start to the season, relatively speaking.

There never has been and never will be a Honda team with equal “number 1” riders, and I am afraid that, regardless of the outcome if this year’s MotoGP championship, HRC sees Pedrosa as their future and Honda’s vision has a way of becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy.

This is the reality today. It makes it "prophetic" because this was said in the past.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If the situations had been reversed with Pedrosa leading by 12 points with two races to go, Hayden would have done what Edwards was doing, and, as in Edwards’ case, no one would have had to have told him to do it.

This is perhaps a little insight into the sense of entitlement that each of the two riders at Repsol/Honda have. One has won the championship, but sadly is the stepchild number 2 rider and second-class citizen, who hasn't complained or threaten to leave the factory. The other one has not won the championship (though its early in his career) but has been their number 1 (including last year), but has engaged in publicly criticizing the factory and has threatened to leave. What on earth would give the second guy that sense of entitlement? What and who? And to the point of this thread, how has this effected the success of the “team” so far?
 
Dani is way too inexperienced to develop the bike and in my opinion Hayden's style is only his style and looks like the Bike was still build around Danny even tho Hayden was often doing the testing.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>One has won the championship, but sadly is the stepchild number 2 rider and second-class citizen, who hasn't complained or threaten to leave the factory. The other one has not won the championship

Actually Dani has given Honda 3 world GP championships. I don't wanna turn this into a Dani vs Nicky bashing thread but you're testing my patience talking BS about Dani.

And back to the topic, no, the develpment of the bike has nothing to do with the personal relationship between the riders.

Doohan and Crivillé didn't like each other, and didn't help each other at any moment, still, the team went on to win 6 titles (1994...1999) and the NSR500 was undisputedly the best bike of the grid.
 

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