Is Burgess trying to get fired

Or is this par for the course when dealing with Ducati, or Italians in general. This is what he said about the development of the bike.



Jerry Burgess doesn't seem too impressed. He repeated to me today what he said in Qatar when I asked him what the prospects were: "I wouldn't start from here." I may be wrong, but the more I watch what's happening at Ducati the more I get the feeling they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.



That sounds like they are not listening to his suggestions and have basically told him to .... off, this the way we are going.

There are two explanations I can think of, one, he may be right, Ducati are not listening to him, and two, they are but his suggestions are not working and making him look bad.



It depends which you want to believe.

Yup, that sounds like he is ready to leave. If that really is his words (link?).



If so, I'm starting to think Ducati is getting a inflated ego to rival HRC, or better yet Harley Davidson.

Look where the quotation marks end. All he said is "i wouldn't start from here". The rest is Julian Ryders opinion

Who asked for an aluminum chassis? JB and Rossi. Ducati delivered it and it proved nothing. Preziosi said a bunch of times "I don't think the material is the problem".



Preziosi is open minded , if he isn't he was not updating the bike so much times following Rossi's/JB's orderings.



CF is not the main issue, actually it's better. It's clear Ducati has a problematic concept with their engine as a stressed member and the shape of the chassis. Maybe it's time to try a more common concept, but built in CF.

Tom said:

Look where the quotation marks end. All he said is "i wouldn't start from here". The rest is Julian Ryders opinion

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Yep, your right

The problem is, that when Stoner 'clicked' the Ducati GP10 setup last year it was at Aragon and he won the next 3 races. Even though its early days the new aluminium chassis seems at best to be mid grid, not the machine that Ducati want (or need) to get back at the sharp end.



Maybe they should just use a 1198 frame. Checa seems to get on well with it

povol said:

Or is this par for the course when dealing with Ducati, or Italians in general. This is what he said about the development of the bike.



Jerry Burgess doesn't seem too impressed. He repeated to me today what he said in Qatar when I asked him what the prospects were: "I wouldn't start from here." I may be wrong, but the more I watch what's happening at Ducati the more I get the feeling they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.



That sounds like they are not listening to his suggestions and have basically told him to .... off, this the way we are going.

Click to expand...

Julian may be correct. Ducati have been on the brink of failure for over a decade. In 2008, restructuring was successful, but Ducati are still trying to grow themselves out of the slump in the global motorcycling industry.



Is Burgess trying to get fired? Maybe, but I think he is struggling most with a work environment that has no funds set aside for a new project with Rossi.

gui22a said:

Who asked for an aluminum chassis? JB and Rossi. Ducati delivered it and it proved nothing. Preziosi said a bunch of times "I don't think the material is the problem".



Preziosi is open minded , if he isn't he was not updating the bike so much times following Rossi's/JB's orderings.



CF is not the main issue, actually it's better. It's clear Ducati has a problematic concept with their engine as a stressed member and the shape of the chassis. Maybe it's time to try a more common concept, but built in CF.

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Really? Go on....

mylexicon said:

Julian may be correct. Ducati have been on the brink of failure for over a decade. In 2008, restructuring was successful, but Ducati are still trying to grow themselves out of the slump in the global motorcycling industry.



Is Burgess trying to get fired? Maybe, but I think he is struggling most with a work environment that has no funds set aside for a new project with Rossi.

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Huh!

gui22a said:

Who asked for an aluminum chassis? JB and Rossi. Ducati delivered it and it proved nothing. Preziosi said a bunch of times "I don't think the material is the problem".



Preziosi is open minded , if he isn't he was not updating the bike so much times following Rossi's/JB's orderings.



CF is not the main issue, actually it's better. It's clear Ducati has a problematic concept with their engine as a stressed member and the shape of the chassis. Maybe it's time to try a more common concept, but built in CF.

Click to expand...

they delivered an aluminum front piece, not a frame bro. what they are wanting IS a full frame, the bolted on lighting truss to engine design dont work no matter what you make it out of.

xx CURVE xx said:

they delivered an aluminum front piece, not a frame bro. what they are wanting IS a full frame, the bolted on lighting truss to engine design dont work no matter what you make it out of.

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It did for one year, 2007. Remember Rossi was the one saying the only way to beat the bolted on lighting truss to engine design was by starting 30sec in front, or something like that. Poor Ducati must be a bit confused.

xx CURVE xx said:

they delivered an aluminum front piece, not a frame bro. what they are wanting IS a full frame, the bolted on lighting truss to engine design dont work no matter what you make it out of.

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I agree... But it's a pity that a few more people didn't publicly state this when other riders were having problems with it it the past?



That said, here's hoping that they can get the thing at least somewhat sorted out for next year :-/

povol said:

Or is this par for the course when dealing with Ducati, or Italians in general. This is what he said about the development of the bike.



Jerry Burgess doesn't seem too impressed. He repeated to me today what he said in Qatar when I asked him what the prospects were: "I wouldn't start from here." I may be wrong, but the more I watch what's happening at Ducati the more I get the feeling they're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.



That sounds like they are not listening to his suggestions and have basically told him to .... off, this the way we are going.

Click to expand...

This has been clear from the beginning, that they aren't listening to him. The gp11.1 was made with no input from him. When he criticised the fork ends and how long it took to get them that told me all I needed to know. He has to feel incredibly frustrated dealing with precious who has been dubbed a genius when the the only thing the bike ever had going for it was the best engine on the grid. I haven't bothered to check the lap times because I'm starting to lose interest but I already made the guess that we'll see a repeating trend with Ducati, positive test followed by disappointing race results.

xx CURVE xx said:

they delivered an aluminum front piece, not a frame bro. what they are wanting IS a full frame, the bolted on lighting truss to engine design dont work no matter what you make it out of.

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Delivering a complete new frame takes time, doesn't it? That doesn't means Ducati is not listening to JB.



And to put a stone over these false statements:

Do you think the changes requested by Valentino will cause problems if they go against the philosophy adopted for the production bikes?



"I don't know anything about the production bikes. Ducati are a smart company, and Filippo Preziosi is first among them: if they want to make a winning bike they must listen to Valentino. Not because of his name but because he is one of the best development riders of all time. Filippo has understood what Valentino is asking for, and in fact he has already made the first big move within two months. And this is a very significant move because of the amount of work involved. This proves that Preziosi and Ducati are listening to and following Valentino."



But between Valentino and Preziosi there is also the team...



"Jeremy Burgess has been winning world championships for 30 years. Our team wants to win and they are working hard, and Jeremy has a direct line to Preziosi. It's true that the team and Jeremy weren't totally convinced about the project, but since they have seen the revolution at Ducati to try and follow Valentino's indications, things have completely turned around. Jeremy was a little down when they were concentrating on the carbon fiber project because he knows bikes very well and he knew that the project would not win in the short term: he is a guy that concentrates on winning the championship at hand."



But it isn't as if they have built a full frame for Valentino...



"That's not really true, as they have built something: this new front chassis unit is a big step forward for them. Now they can go from here and continue to evolve it, making it more or less rigid based on Valentino's feedback. Breaking through the barrier to go fast is not impossible, and it's not too late."

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Ducati is listening and probably building the damn frame, but that is for Valencia at the final stage for 2012.

bluegreen said:

CF is not the main issue, actually it's better.



Really? Go on....

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It is by far in cycling, as i found out recently. In amateur comp level bikes even the cost is about the same, and my alloy bike is like a coke can, so thin it sounds like a rock will punch a hole right through. CF better.



I have doubts CF is an inferior material, too widely used. Simply Ducati lack the funds, time, testing and rules to make 8 variations in one year like Honda.



I remember Yamaha/Rossi/JB having major dramas in 06 with an alloy frame (chatter) because Michelin came out with new (different) tyres that year..................

birdman said:

It is by far in cycling, as i found out recently. In amateur comp level bikes even the cost is about the same, and my alloy bike is like a coke can, so thin it sounds like a rock will punch a hole right through. CF better.



I have doubts CF is an inferior material, too widely used. Simply Ducati lack the funds, time, testing and rules to make 8 variations in one year like Honda.



I remember Yamaha/Rossi/JB having major dramas in 06 with an alloy frame (chatter) because Michelin came out with new (different) tyres that year..................

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Yup, until you scratch your frame on a curb and have to throw it out At least that's how they were last time I was in the know.



As far as bicycles with big engines in them. I think if you make the perfect frame CF is the way to go. If you make a close to perfect frame and need to alter the design in a timely cost effective fashion Aluminium is the choice material. CF has been tried many times, John Britton, Armstrong, some GP bike in the 90's and still the Japanese have yet to copy it the way they copied the deltabox. I'm not sold on it being "better" than aluminum in motorcycles just yet.

gui22a said:

Who asked for an aluminum chassis? JB and Rossi. Ducati delivered it and it proved nothing. Preziosi said a bunch of times "I don't think the material is the problem".



Preziosi is open minded , if he isn't he was not updating the bike so much times following Rossi's/JB's orderings.



CF is not the main issue, actually it's better. It's clear Ducati has a problematic concept with their engine as a stressed member and the shape of the chassis. Maybe it's time to try a more common concept, but built in CF.

Click to expand...

I was originally open minded to the CF idea. I would love to see it as a full frame (wouldn't that be trick?) but I remember reading some article where they talked about chassis development in motorcycles. Compared to a car (stiff as hell with good suspension at each corner) there has to be flex, I think it was KR senior who complained that the original aluminium (deltabox) frames by Yamaha had no feel. He took to them with a drill to create weakness and thus flex to get feel into them.



An engine just don't flex. And if you have a flexy sub frame bit at one end and the other and a stiff engine in the middle there can never be any structural transfer or harmonic between what one area of flex is doing in relation to the other.



I was originally an optimist and whilst Preziosi has an idea that looks good on paper they race on bitumen, not paper.

mylexicon said:

Julian may be correct. Ducati have been on the brink of failure for over a decade. In 2008, restructuring was successful, but Ducati are still trying to grow themselves out of the slump in the global motorcycling industry.



Is Burgess trying to get fired? Maybe, but I think he is struggling most with a work environment that has no funds set aside for a new project with Rossi.

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My understanding is that Rossi brought a lot of the money with him in the form of various endorsements and sponsorships. My fear would be the lack of results isn't giving the sponsors a lot to crow about and I would question their continued patronage and support in the next (and following) seasons.

xx CURVE xx said:

they delivered an aluminum front piece, not a frame bro. what they are wanting IS a full frame, the bolted on lighting truss to engine design dont work no matter what you make it out of.

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It's called a Japanese bike.



Casey Stoner rides a Japanese bike.



There was an interview some time ago in Australian Motorcycle News (AMCN) where Jeremy is hit with the big question, would you want to work with Casey one day.



The answer is neither yes nor no, however he states he will continue to work with Valentino whilst he continues.



Jeremy of course worked with a number of successful riders including two Australians Wayne Gardner and Mighty Mick.



I think there is a possibility to escape the idiocy that flows from Ducati like a steady stream of diarrhoea one Mr Burgess might consider a period of employment with an Australian rider again.



I have nothing to back this up, it is just a theory.



But separating from Ducati and the frustration it is no doubt causing him would be a start.

bluegreen said:

Yup, until you scratch your frame on a curb and have to throw it out

At least that's how they were last time I was in the know.



As far as bicycles with big engines in them. I think if you make the perfect frame CF is the way to go. If you make a close to perfect frame and need to alter the design in a timely cost effective fashion Aluminium is the choice material. CF has been tried many times, John Britton, Armstrong, some GP bike in the 90's and still the Japanese have yet to copy it the way they copied the deltabox. I'm not sold on it being "better" than aluminum in motorcycles just yet.

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Well it was actually in downhill mountain bike that I was looking at buying CF. Its made to take big hits, and yes that includes scratches. They have to be reliable and durable, and it is a potential legal minefield because a frame failure in downhill equates to a broken neck, so no cycle manufacturer can afford to go through that.



A carbon cycle frame was once $20k or more, now its down to $3k and used by many companies much smaller than Ducati. Therefore the future as I see it would be a CF Ducati 1198 that weighs in a good 10kg less, say in the 165kg range. If they cant achieve that no use in using carbon.

Andy Roo said:

My understanding is that Rossi brought a lot of the money with him in the form of various endorsements and sponsorships. My fear would be the lack of results isn't giving the sponsors a lot to crow about and I would question their continued patronage and support in the next (and following) seasons.

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Everyone seems to think that Rossi brings bags of money with him, but he's not a 16 year-old kid. If Rossi, Burgess, and Brivio came with a $10M surplus of sponsorship, the manufacturers would quickly bid the surplus away. Best case scenario, Rossi's sponsors pay his wages and his crew's wages. If Rossi is indeed generating a surplus for Ducati, the manufacturers have agreed not to engage in bidding wars with one another.