Hi again mates!I was just curious if anyknows where I can find some good article on Yamaha,Honda evolution through the last few years with the 4 strokes...or anyone knows much about it?Thanks in advance folks!
The M1 has a 4 cylinder inline engine, The first prototype (2001) had 5 valves per cylinder because the 5 valves is like the Desmo for Ducati, a symbol.
The 2002 season was the debut for the M1, they were wiped out by the RCV.
The next year they dropped the 5 valve engine for a more common 4 valve one.
This year there's another big change, the firing order has changed to a Big Bang configuration (that means the cylinders don't fire at regular intervals), this decreases top power but improves traction. Both Kawasaki and Ducati have done this too.
The 2002 season was the debut for the M1, they were wiped out by the RCV.
The next year they dropped the 5 valve engine for a more common 4 valve one.
This year there's another big change, the firing order has changed to a Big Bang configuration (that means the cylinders don't fire at regular intervals), this decreases top power but improves traction. Both Kawasaki and Ducati have done this too.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Teomolca could you please explain Big Bang in a bit more detail because I'm afraid I've been under the wrong impression of what it is for some time now and want to clear that up. I understood it as the firing order went off in a particular order that made sure there were not two cylinders firing simultaneously to ensure better traction. Thanks in advance for the info.
30:attachment]<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Jul 6 2005, 02:38 PM)<div class='quotemain'>Teomolca could you please explain Big Bang in a bit more detail because I'm afraid I've been under the wrong impression of what it is for some time now and want to clear that up. I understood it as the firing order went off in a particular order that made sure there were not two cylinders firing simultaneously to ensure better traction. Thanks in advance for the info.
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The theory of the big bang motors came in to production in 1992 with the Rothmans Honda's of Wayne Gardner and Mick Doohan at Suzuka, Japan.
A normal 4 cylinder 2 stroke produced 4 energy pulses, one after the other.
Now because the engines were screamers, this was producing mega wheel spin as the tyres at the time could not cope. It was ripping tyres apart and all the power was unusable. So riders had trouble getting to poweron exiting corners.
So Honda developed the big bang motor. This produced 2 pulses instead of 4 by making the opposing cylinders fire together, in effect it made the engine act and produce its power the same as a big twin cylinder engine. 2 pulses with a slight gap allowed the tyres to recover and grip better when the throttle is opened.
Yamaha were the first to copy this, they had people record the sound of the Honda engines and work out the firing order.
At the time Waynes and Mick's bikes sounded very flat in comparison with Wayne Raineys Yamaha.
Wayne Gardner should have won the championship that year but smashed his leg in a crash at Suzuka.
With the introduction of the 4-stroke engines this same principle has been deployed and developed.
So acceleration is better than overall speed.
This is some official blurb from Honda:
"Honda unveiled a revolutionary idea with a 1992 V-4 that was timed to fire all four cylinders within 65-70 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Along with a balance shaft that neutralized the single crankshaft engine's gyroscopic effects, the 1992 NSR500 was a breakthrough."
Mr_Drewpy
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The theory of the big bang motors came in to production in 1992 with the Rothmans Honda's of Wayne Gardner and Mick Doohan at Suzuka, Japan.
A normal 4 cylinder 2 stroke produced 4 energy pulses, one after the other.
Now because the engines were screamers, this was producing mega wheel spin as the tyres at the time could not cope. It was ripping tyres apart and all the power was unusable. So riders had trouble getting to poweron exiting corners.
So Honda developed the big bang motor. This produced 2 pulses instead of 4 by making the opposing cylinders fire together, in effect it made the engine act and produce its power the same as a big twin cylinder engine. 2 pulses with a slight gap allowed the tyres to recover and grip better when the throttle is opened.
Yamaha were the first to copy this, they had people record the sound of the Honda engines and work out the firing order.
At the time Waynes and Mick's bikes sounded very flat in comparison with Wayne Raineys Yamaha.
Wayne Gardner should have won the championship that year but smashed his leg in a crash at Suzuka.
With the introduction of the 4-stroke engines this same principle has been deployed and developed.
So acceleration is better than overall speed.
This is some official blurb from Honda:
"Honda unveiled a revolutionary idea with a 1992 V-4 that was timed to fire all four cylinders within 65-70 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Along with a balance shaft that neutralized the single crankshaft engine's gyroscopic effects, the 1992 NSR500 was a breakthrough."
Mr_Drewpy
Ok, I'll try to explain, but English is not my first language so it will be tricky !
A normal 4 cyl engine fires each cyl at equal intervals of time. So each cylinder is in a different phase spaced 90º degrees each. That way you get a more uniform powerful response.
So for example when cyl 1 is at the top and firing, the 2nd is at the bottom with fresh mixture being taken, the 3rd is also at the top but expulsing burnt gases and the 4th at the bottom with burnt gases.
In a Big Bang configuration you can get 3 or 4 explosions in a 90º interval and nothing on the other 270º degrees, that way the traction is better because tires need time between each cyl kick to stick to the tarmac, and this way they get more time.
The Yamaha and Kawasaki work like this, the Ducati groups the cyls in twos. so the have 2 explosions at the same time you can call it a semi-big bang.
The normal (equally spaced explosions) configuration is called Screamer, which makes sense, when a 600cc CBR, ZXR etc flies past you on the highway at 150 mph high revving they sound like screaming.
I hope you understood it.
The history of the Big Bang Idea is a nice one too, but this post is already long enough !
A normal 4 cyl engine fires each cyl at equal intervals of time. So each cylinder is in a different phase spaced 90º degrees each. That way you get a more uniform powerful response.
So for example when cyl 1 is at the top and firing, the 2nd is at the bottom with fresh mixture being taken, the 3rd is also at the top but expulsing burnt gases and the 4th at the bottom with burnt gases.
In a Big Bang configuration you can get 3 or 4 explosions in a 90º interval and nothing on the other 270º degrees, that way the traction is better because tires need time between each cyl kick to stick to the tarmac, and this way they get more time.
The Yamaha and Kawasaki work like this, the Ducati groups the cyls in twos. so the have 2 explosions at the same time you can call it a semi-big bang.
The normal (equally spaced explosions) configuration is called Screamer, which makes sense, when a 600cc CBR, ZXR etc flies past you on the highway at 150 mph high revving they sound like screaming.
I hope you understood it.
The history of the Big Bang Idea is a nice one too, but this post is already long enough !
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Ok yeah that makes sense, I had read an article in Motorcycle Racer some years ago about the development of the NSR500 and they discussed the evolution to the big bang motor and I must have confused myself because I remember reading that theory. Sorry to make you guys explain but thanks for the info. You mentioned Ducati's version of the big bang, is that the twin pulse firing order they are running or is it something else?
You guys pretty much got all of it.Thanks for the info but if we want to sound a little bit technical we should say about the 4 stroke cycle:
In a normal screamer 4 cylinder engine you have usually a firing order of 1-3-4-2 or 1-2-4-3.With these firing numbers there is a power stroke at every 180 degrees of the rotation of the crankshaft.Some might have forgotten the four stroke cycle so let me bring it you once again:
1.Intake stroke:Starting from the Top Dead Centre (TDC), the piston moves away from the cylinder head by going down the cylinder: the intake valve is open, letting fresh air/fuel mixture into the cylinder.
2.Compression stroke
Once it has reached the Bottom Dead Centre (BDC), where the intake valve shuts, the piston reverses its motion and moves towards the cylinder head. In doing so, because both valves are closed, it compresses the fresh air/fuel mixture.
then there's the ignition:When the minimum volume between the piston crown and the cylinder roof (combustion chamber) is reached (piston at its Top Dead Centre), the mixture is ignited by the spark produced by the plug and combustion begins (note! This is not a "bang" at all, but fast and gradual combustion).
and 3:expansion stroke
Combustion causes rapid gas expansion, which applies considerable pressure against the chamber walls, and in particular, against the piston crown. The piston, being "mobile", moves away from the cylinder head turning the crankshaft: while all the valves are still closed, the third stroke is completed. This is the only active stroke, during which the engine produces working energy.
4.EXHAUST stroke
Once the active phase has been completed with the piston at its BDC, the up-stroke begins once again with an open exhaust valve. The combustion gases are pushed out from the cylinder: at the end of this stroke, the engine is ready to repeat the entire cycle.
As I said the expansion stroke is the only active one-the only one that produces energy so every time there is an expansion stroke the tire is being "pushed" and thus-the thing just loses grip.So as I said in a screamer-the "push" is at every 180 degrees.I know that in the M1 configuration and fire timing(not sure about the Kawasaki sorry) we can find a whole 310 degrees between that "push".-310 degrees of peace on each cycle.
That configuration gives you an incredible amount of grip going in and especially going out of the bend-you just can open gas more early without worrying about over load on the rear suspension and loose back end of the bike.
The Big Bang technology reminds me of the "battle" between the inline 4 and Vtwin reknowned for that very same traction(there's an expansion stroke in the Vtwin in every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation).If you watch Superbike races close enough you might be able to see that exiting power of the twin!
But about exiting power of the M1-well the thing has grip but RC 211 V's Unit Pro Link Suspension has immense power there-tire might bit a bit loose because of the engine but suspension works perfectly(adjusted with style of course).
Those are the things I pretty much wanted to say.Cheerz
In a normal screamer 4 cylinder engine you have usually a firing order of 1-3-4-2 or 1-2-4-3.With these firing numbers there is a power stroke at every 180 degrees of the rotation of the crankshaft.Some might have forgotten the four stroke cycle so let me bring it you once again:
1.Intake stroke:Starting from the Top Dead Centre (TDC), the piston moves away from the cylinder head by going down the cylinder: the intake valve is open, letting fresh air/fuel mixture into the cylinder.
2.Compression stroke
Once it has reached the Bottom Dead Centre (BDC), where the intake valve shuts, the piston reverses its motion and moves towards the cylinder head. In doing so, because both valves are closed, it compresses the fresh air/fuel mixture.
then there's the ignition:When the minimum volume between the piston crown and the cylinder roof (combustion chamber) is reached (piston at its Top Dead Centre), the mixture is ignited by the spark produced by the plug and combustion begins (note! This is not a "bang" at all, but fast and gradual combustion).
and 3:expansion stroke
Combustion causes rapid gas expansion, which applies considerable pressure against the chamber walls, and in particular, against the piston crown. The piston, being "mobile", moves away from the cylinder head turning the crankshaft: while all the valves are still closed, the third stroke is completed. This is the only active stroke, during which the engine produces working energy.
4.EXHAUST stroke
Once the active phase has been completed with the piston at its BDC, the up-stroke begins once again with an open exhaust valve. The combustion gases are pushed out from the cylinder: at the end of this stroke, the engine is ready to repeat the entire cycle.
As I said the expansion stroke is the only active one-the only one that produces energy so every time there is an expansion stroke the tire is being "pushed" and thus-the thing just loses grip.So as I said in a screamer-the "push" is at every 180 degrees.I know that in the M1 configuration and fire timing(not sure about the Kawasaki sorry) we can find a whole 310 degrees between that "push".-310 degrees of peace on each cycle.
That configuration gives you an incredible amount of grip going in and especially going out of the bend-you just can open gas more early without worrying about over load on the rear suspension and loose back end of the bike.
The Big Bang technology reminds me of the "battle" between the inline 4 and Vtwin reknowned for that very same traction(there's an expansion stroke in the Vtwin in every 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation).If you watch Superbike races close enough you might be able to see that exiting power of the twin!
But about exiting power of the M1-well the thing has grip but RC 211 V's Unit Pro Link Suspension has immense power there-tire might bit a bit loose because of the engine but suspension works perfectly(adjusted with style of course).
Those are the things I pretty much wanted to say.Cheerz
btw teomolca what country are you from buddy?Good to see you have such a good English!
I'm from Spain. I live in Valencia, quite close to the Cheste circuit (home of the last race of the year).
Going back to this topic quickly, if they are going to reduce engine capacity soon, doesnt this mean that right now we are being treated to the most powerfull Grand Prix race bikes EVER? and with Rossi at the top of his game you could say this is certainly a golden era...
Personaly? I think its great that the bikes have 250-60+ bhp, but in a way i cant wait until the day that we see a race where you REALLY dont know whos going to win. At the moment Yes we have a grid of about 10 riders that could possibly win, but due to the technicalities and politics it means that you have to be with the right team and the right sponsorships to be competitve.
You could say im being niave as this is the premier world championship and so its not just a battle between riders but also between bike and tire manufacturers, and its always going to be like that- thats why we have WSB.
Personaly? I think its great that the bikes have 250-60+ bhp, but in a way i cant wait until the day that we see a race where you REALLY dont know whos going to win. At the moment Yes we have a grid of about 10 riders that could possibly win, but due to the technicalities and politics it means that you have to be with the right team and the right sponsorships to be competitve.
You could say im being niave as this is the premier world championship and so its not just a battle between riders but also between bike and tire manufacturers, and its always going to be like that- thats why we have WSB.
Well the 800cc bikes will be less powerful at the start but in a few years they'll be at the same point we are now.
I'm really curious about Ducati, if the Japs go for high revving F1 tech (which they will), the Desmos wont be able to keep up.
Will they abandon MotoGP? Ditch the Desmo?
Will Aprilia come back with their Cosworth F1 engine?
I'm really curious about Ducati, if the Japs go for high revving F1 tech (which they will), the Desmos wont be able to keep up.
Will they abandon MotoGP? Ditch the Desmo?
Will Aprilia come back with their Cosworth F1 engine?
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Teo you're right on the money. With speculation about the 800s. I don't know if you have read any of my V8 posts in the F1 forum but I think we're in a similar situation here. Whoever can develop the right package off the bat is going to give riders who aren't currently in contention a leg up. It's very possible the Kwaks could make a very good 800 on an even playing field. The sam could be said for Suzuki.... maybe. It will be interesting to see how Ducati handles the switch.
All the japs and Aprilia voted in favour of the 800cc only Ducati was against it, so I suppose Kawa, Suzi and Yamaha believe they can build good pneumatic valve closing systems despite never having done it before.
I think this is an advantage for Honda because they've got the biggest budget and the tech already developed by their F1 team.
I think this is an advantage for Honda because they've got the biggest budget and the tech already developed by their F1 team.
This is a great thread. Awesome info on the whole Big Bang thing that i never really took an interest in reading before. Glad i decided to today.
I think we will see Honda on top for two years as they were with the rc211v, once the 800cc rule is in effcet, just due to the developement being there early again.
No clue how the ducks will handle it... But that GP4 looks impressive for World Superbike next year!
I think we will see Honda on top for two years as they were with the rc211v, once the 800cc rule is in effcet, just due to the developement being there early again.
No clue how the ducks will handle it... But that GP4 looks impressive for World Superbike next year!
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Does anyone know how long Honda have been developing their 800cc machine? I thought I had read last spring that they were developing an 800cc V3, after the article I never found anything more on Honda developing an 800cc V3. Any info would be great. If that story on the Honda 800cc V3 was nothing but a rumor it could make 2007 very interesting. For 2002 Honda had a pretty big lead in development which is the reason I think that they have been ahead of the game since the start of the MotoGP class. If everyone starts on a level pitch with the 800 projects we could possibly see competitive Kwaks, or do I dare say Suzukis?
