Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like Elias has shown us that you can back the new 800's into a corner square it off and shoot out of the corners. He did it to great effect in Spain. Nicky has been trying to learn a new style when it seems that Elias is doing well with it. Any thoughts?
well gunski if memory serves i think nicks havin trouble with the front end. he's lacking any kind of feel. melandri & nakano seem to have a bit of the same problem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 18 2007, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well gunski if memory serves i think nicks havin trouble with the front end. he's lacking any kind of feel. melandri & nakano seem to have a bit of the same problem.
^^^ I Know he has front end "feel" problems, and there lies the solution (maybe
). When you are pursuing more corner speed the front end is the first indicator of when you are close to or on the razors edge of traction. Front end "feel" is not as important when you are spinning the rear end to perform the point and shoot method. My point is If Elias can do it then Nicky should be able to do it. I know this because I have always lacked the pure corner speed of a good friend I race against. It may have something to do with the fact that I outweigh him by about 85 pounds. I found that I can make up a lot of time by spinning the rear and keeping the bike more upright than he does, otherwise he would beat me by a much wider margin than he does already.
^^^ I Know he has front end "feel" problems, and there lies the solution (maybe
I feel the same way. I think Nicky is trying to change his style to appease everyone around him at Honda. I think he and Elias ride very differently though. Hayden likes to get the bike loose everywhere, Elias just hangs way off and unloads the rear. In other words Nicky brakes with the back wheel, Elias just steers with it. Nicky just needs to be on a different bike to ride his way.
Look at Yamaha. The tallest riders in Motogp ride for them. Yamaha has an I-4 slammed right against the front wheel which gives it a forward weight bias. When 69kgs of Rossi or Edwards sit in the spacious cockpit the bike is properly balanced.
It gets great drive out of corners and the taller riders can hang way off the back of the back to help keep the rear wheel on the ground under breaking. Plus the front end loads with less braking so front end feel starts the minute you touch the brakes (in theory).
The honda is all about mass centralization. The only people who fit on their bike are Pedrobot, Melandri and Nakano. It does nothing well and nothing poorly. Honda won the world championship last year because they had someone who rode exactly the same as the bike (a shame because Nicky has great style). Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
Nicky's prospects seem bleak. He's not going to win with Honda again, and all the other contenders have found their #1's. I think Nicky's only chance is to take a pay cut and go to Yamaha when Colin retires. He and Benson can learn from Burgess and Rossi, and dice it up with them for a few years. If he stays healthy he'll be a fit 28 or 29 year old when Rossi retires and then he can make a hard push for a couple more titles on the way out.
A lot will happen between now and 3 years from now, but it seems Nicky's style won't be seen until the power of the machines is enough to overwhelm the grip of the tires and Nicky finds a point and shoot team.
Look at Yamaha. The tallest riders in Motogp ride for them. Yamaha has an I-4 slammed right against the front wheel which gives it a forward weight bias. When 69kgs of Rossi or Edwards sit in the spacious cockpit the bike is properly balanced.
It gets great drive out of corners and the taller riders can hang way off the back of the back to help keep the rear wheel on the ground under breaking. Plus the front end loads with less braking so front end feel starts the minute you touch the brakes (in theory).
The honda is all about mass centralization. The only people who fit on their bike are Pedrobot, Melandri and Nakano. It does nothing well and nothing poorly. Honda won the world championship last year because they had someone who rode exactly the same as the bike (a shame because Nicky has great style). Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
Nicky's prospects seem bleak. He's not going to win with Honda again, and all the other contenders have found their #1's. I think Nicky's only chance is to take a pay cut and go to Yamaha when Colin retires. He and Benson can learn from Burgess and Rossi, and dice it up with them for a few years. If he stays healthy he'll be a fit 28 or 29 year old when Rossi retires and then he can make a hard push for a couple more titles on the way out.
A lot will happen between now and 3 years from now, but it seems Nicky's style won't be seen until the power of the machines is enough to overwhelm the grip of the tires and Nicky finds a point and shoot team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 21 2007, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I feel the same way. I think Nicky is trying to change his style to appease everyone around him at Honda. I think he and Elias ride very differently though. Hayden likes to get the bike loose everywhere, Elias just hangs way off and unloads the rear. In other words Nicky brakes with the back wheel, Elias just steers with it. Nicky just needs to be on a different bike to ride his way.
Look at Yamaha. The tallest riders in Motogp ride for them. Yamaha has an I-4 slammed right against the front wheel which gives it a forward weight bias. When 69kgs of Rossi or Edwards sit in the spacious cockpit the bike is properly balanced.
It gets great drive out of corners and the taller riders can hang way off the back of the back to help keep the rear wheel on the ground under breaking. Plus the front end loads with less braking so front end feel starts the minute you touch the brakes (in theory).
The honda is all about mass centralization. The only people who fit on their bike are Pedrobot, Melandri and Nakano. It does nothing well and nothing poorly. Honda won the world championship last year because they had someone who rode exactly the same as the bike (a shame because Nicky has great style). Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
Nicky's prospects seem bleak. He's not going to win with Honda again, and all the other contenders have found their #1's. I think Nicky's only chance is to take a pay cut and go to Yamaha when Colin retires. He and Benson can learn from Burgess and Rossi, and dice it up with them for a few years. If he stays healthy he'll be a fit 28 or 29 year old when Rossi retires and then he can make a hard push for a couple more titles on the way out.
A lot will happen between now and 3 years from now, but it seems Nicky's style won't be seen until the power of the machines is enough to overwhelm the grip of the tires and Nicky finds a point and shoot team.
^^That makes sense. I saw Nicky's bike from last season and he had a huge rear brake. I hope he can get something going soon.
Look at Yamaha. The tallest riders in Motogp ride for them. Yamaha has an I-4 slammed right against the front wheel which gives it a forward weight bias. When 69kgs of Rossi or Edwards sit in the spacious cockpit the bike is properly balanced.
It gets great drive out of corners and the taller riders can hang way off the back of the back to help keep the rear wheel on the ground under breaking. Plus the front end loads with less braking so front end feel starts the minute you touch the brakes (in theory).
The honda is all about mass centralization. The only people who fit on their bike are Pedrobot, Melandri and Nakano. It does nothing well and nothing poorly. Honda won the world championship last year because they had someone who rode exactly the same as the bike (a shame because Nicky has great style). Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
Nicky's prospects seem bleak. He's not going to win with Honda again, and all the other contenders have found their #1's. I think Nicky's only chance is to take a pay cut and go to Yamaha when Colin retires. He and Benson can learn from Burgess and Rossi, and dice it up with them for a few years. If he stays healthy he'll be a fit 28 or 29 year old when Rossi retires and then he can make a hard push for a couple more titles on the way out.
A lot will happen between now and 3 years from now, but it seems Nicky's style won't be seen until the power of the machines is enough to overwhelm the grip of the tires and Nicky finds a point and shoot team.
^^That makes sense. I saw Nicky's bike from last season and he had a huge rear brake. I hope he can get something going soon.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 21 2007, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It does nothing well and nothing poorly.
Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
He's not going to win with Honda again.
All of these points are debatable. Evidence would suggest the honda both turns and Accelerates poorly compared to the competition. I believe Nicky has been kept because he won a world championship and proved himslef easily worthy of a works bike. He is struggling this season but so are honda, so they need to work together to get it right. And he may be out of the title fight this season, but he is talanted and young so there is no reason he cannot come back into contention in not too distant future.
Nicky needs to accept that Honda keep him around for U.S. sales, not to win championships.
He's not going to win with Honda again.
All of these points are debatable. Evidence would suggest the honda both turns and Accelerates poorly compared to the competition. I believe Nicky has been kept because he won a world championship and proved himslef easily worthy of a works bike. He is struggling this season but so are honda, so they need to work together to get it right. And he may be out of the title fight this season, but he is talanted and young so there is no reason he cannot come back into contention in not too distant future.
With all my respect for Nicky, but I don't think he is one of the most talented drivers of the field. He just lacks something. Last year he won his first and last title. But I was glad for him.
I don't think Nicky's problem has anything to do with getting the bike out of line in either entry or exit of a turn, and how you want to ride through a turn, outta line or neat and straight, won't cure the problem. The guys on eurosport and more specifically Randy Mamola, were saying it's a mid turn thing, particularly longer faster turns. He's not getting enough back from the front end so he can't feel how hard he's pushing the tyre. HRC had changed the position of the engine 3 times to try and get the thing to feel more planted and they seemed to get somewhere as the weekend progressed. I still think they're gettin it pretty tough and Nicky saying he's trying to change his style sounds like desperation to me.
He won the world championship...yet gets no respect..unreal
He performed more consistantly than everyone else on the grid..
Now this season he is sucking wind but most of the Hondas are struggling..he a little more than others..
Every rider has to alter their riding style at one time or another...especially when changing classes or bike sizes and power.
He performed more consistantly than everyone else on the grid..
Now this season he is sucking wind but most of the Hondas are struggling..he a little more than others..
Every rider has to alter their riding style at one time or another...especially when changing classes or bike sizes and power.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogunski @ Apr 18 2007, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like Elias has shown us that you can back the new 800's into a corner square it off and shoot out of the corners. He did it to great effect in Spain. Nicky has been trying to learn a new style when it seems that Elias is doing well with it. Any thoughts?
Both Elias and Hayden have motocross background which helps them to point and shoot on the race track... this fact we know... however.. Elias never listens to others to change his style.. that is why Puig dropped him and kept Pedrosa.. I haven't seen Hayden slide his bike once as he used to with the 990cc... I noticed that he begins to slide when he is in contention to fight for the win (this is where I think his old habits kick in).. Because his teammate Pedrosa is a glide rider, Hayden was willing to adapt his style to become a glide rider like Rossi and Melandri.. bad choice or good choice... that is your pick... the difference between Elias and Hayden is the tires... Bridgestone are known for their front end feel (Melandri needs to trust the front more as he is the type that uses front end feel to his advantage).. so this year, with Honda's lack of front end b/c of mass centralization and Michelin's reputation for not having the same front end feel as Bridgestone... we can see that we have a problem in addition to his weight..
Shinya Nakano is having the classic loss of front end feeling that Tamada experienced.. Again...it appears that once you for Bstone you never go back! LOL
Both Elias and Hayden have motocross background which helps them to point and shoot on the race track... this fact we know... however.. Elias never listens to others to change his style.. that is why Puig dropped him and kept Pedrosa.. I haven't seen Hayden slide his bike once as he used to with the 990cc... I noticed that he begins to slide when he is in contention to fight for the win (this is where I think his old habits kick in).. Because his teammate Pedrosa is a glide rider, Hayden was willing to adapt his style to become a glide rider like Rossi and Melandri.. bad choice or good choice... that is your pick... the difference between Elias and Hayden is the tires... Bridgestone are known for their front end feel (Melandri needs to trust the front more as he is the type that uses front end feel to his advantage).. so this year, with Honda's lack of front end b/c of mass centralization and Michelin's reputation for not having the same front end feel as Bridgestone... we can see that we have a problem in addition to his weight..
Shinya Nakano is having the classic loss of front end feeling that Tamada experienced.. Again...it appears that once you for Bstone you never go back! LOL
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChemiKaze @ Apr 24 2007, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Both Elias and Hayden have motocross background which helps them to point and shoot on the race track... this fact we know... however.. Elias never listens to others to change his style.. that is why Puig dropped him and kept Pedrosa.. I haven't seen Hayden slide his bike once as he used to with the 990cc... I noticed that he begins to slide when he is in contention to fight for the win (this is where I think his old habits kick in).. Because his teammate Pedrosa is a glide rider, Hayden was willing to adapt his style to become a glide rider like Rossi and Melandri.. bad choice or good choice... that is your pick... the difference between Elias and Hayden is the tires... Bridgestone are known for their front end feel (Melandri needs to trust the front more as he is the type that uses front end feel to his advantage).. so this year, with Honda's lack of front end b/c of mass centralization and Michelin's reputation for not having the same front end feel as Bridgestone... we can see that we have a problem in addition to his weight..
Shinya Nakano is having the classic loss of front end feeling that Tamada experienced.. Again...it appears that once you for Bstone you never go back! LOLOn the money.
The only two guys doing well on a Honda are both midgets compared with Hayden or even Checa, could the Honda be that fickle? I hadn't thought of the tyre thing with guys going back to michelin after b/stone.
Shinya Nakano is having the classic loss of front end feeling that Tamada experienced.. Again...it appears that once you for Bstone you never go back! LOLOn the money.
The only two guys doing well on a Honda are both midgets compared with Hayden or even Checa, could the Honda be that fickle? I hadn't thought of the tyre thing with guys going back to michelin after b/stone.
dont forget elias doesnt put as much weight and heat in the back as hayden so he can slide it around and not suffer as much for it.
Bridgestone v. Michelin
Sliding tires accelerates their wear. Apparently, Elias can slide on the Bridgestones without worrying that they will go off. Most riders on the Michelins did not have enough grip to begin with. Sliding would only have made their problems worse.
Sliding tires accelerates their wear. Apparently, Elias can slide on the Bridgestones without worrying that they will go off. Most riders on the Michelins did not have enough grip to begin with. Sliding would only have made their problems worse.
Nicky doesn't back it in much anymore compared to how he used to be, but he does over steer out of turns more than most. That is more significant than backing it in as far as tire wear is concerned because there isn't much weight on the rear wheel when braking.
has hrc .... upon nicky a little ths season. nicky developed the chassis last year, and who get the first update, dani.
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
shouldnt the world champ get the evolution first.
the chassis update was the replacement of the rear shock unit which was contained in the swingarm (like what you would see in the cbr600rr) to really what has always been used, the top off the shock attached to the rear of the frame cradle were the subframe attaches, down to a bottom linkage which alters the progression of the movement of the swingarm. the reason for this is hrc used the old unit to allow the fuel tank to be as low as possible, and with out the top of the shock there it could be lowered even further to assist handling ( lower centre of gravity ). now the is a lower fuel capacity, there is no need for this and the older system can be used again. Team KR tested this last year for honda and had good results with it, so the eggheads have been thinking off this in advance i reckon.
on sat, nickys spanner men tried moving the engine to varoius positions, but any little movement they made thru the balance of the bike so far out of balance it was like getting the bike out of the van at a new track and starting again so was the dramatic effect it had on the bike, but obviously they found something on sat night-sun morn. i just hope hrc give nicky a little more support than they seem to have given him so far.
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
shouldnt the world champ get the evolution first.
the chassis update was the replacement of the rear shock unit which was contained in the swingarm (like what you would see in the cbr600rr) to really what has always been used, the top off the shock attached to the rear of the frame cradle were the subframe attaches, down to a bottom linkage which alters the progression of the movement of the swingarm. the reason for this is hrc used the old unit to allow the fuel tank to be as low as possible, and with out the top of the shock there it could be lowered even further to assist handling ( lower centre of gravity ). now the is a lower fuel capacity, there is no need for this and the older system can be used again. Team KR tested this last year for honda and had good results with it, so the eggheads have been thinking off this in advance i reckon.
on sat, nickys spanner men tried moving the engine to varoius positions, but any little movement they made thru the balance of the bike so far out of balance it was like getting the bike out of the van at a new track and starting again so was the dramatic effect it had on the bike, but obviously they found something on sat night-sun morn. i just hope hrc give nicky a little more support than they seem to have given him so far.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sb248 @ Apr 24 2007, 10:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>has hrc .... upon nicky a little ths season. nicky developed the chassis last year, and who get the first update, dani.
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
The 800 is an all new bike and the 990 Nicky developed last year is not the same bike at all. Different things will work to last year, if it was all the time hayden would still be on the podium.
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
The 800 is an all new bike and the 990 Nicky developed last year is not the same bike at all. Different things will work to last year, if it was all the time hayden would still be on the podium.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 24 2007, 11:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The 800 is an all new bike and the 990 Nicky developed last year is not the same bike at all. Different things will work to last year, if it was all the time hayden would still be on the podium.
the frame nicky was developing last year may not be what he or dani have under them now, but it is a direct evolution of it, but having the experience of development and being world champ, should he not get preferance.
the frame nicky was developing last year may not be what he or dani have under them now, but it is a direct evolution of it, but having the experience of development and being world champ, should he not get preferance.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sb248 @ Apr 24 2007, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the frame nicky was developing last year may not be what he or dani have under them now, but it is a direct evolution of it, but having the experience of development and being world champ, should he not get preferance.
^^^Apparently Honda does not think so!
I think being a Honda factory rider is a double edged sword. On one side you get the legendary Honda engineering and know how. On the other side they politely remind you when you win a championship that it was the bike not the pilot who won so shut up and stop your snivelling because everyone wants your seat.
^^^Apparently Honda does not think so!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sb248 @ Apr 24 2007, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>has hrc .... upon nicky a little ths season. nicky developed the chassis last year, and who get the first update, dani.
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
shouldnt the world champ get the evolution first.
I'm sorry to correct your statements mate... but it is official that there are two development teams one for Hayden and one for Pedrosa... Nicky requested some upgrades and he got it.. Nicky never requested the chassis upgrade.. Dani's upgrade was what he requested... a stiffer chassis and he got it..
so all is fair... let's be more open-minded and accept that Nicky needs a little more time to adapt... there is no doubt of his talent..
now not only did nicky develop the chassis in the first place giving him a better idea if the changes made would work or if they were heading in the right direction, but he also gave honda the world title last year.
shouldnt the world champ get the evolution first.
I'm sorry to correct your statements mate... but it is official that there are two development teams one for Hayden and one for Pedrosa... Nicky requested some upgrades and he got it.. Nicky never requested the chassis upgrade.. Dani's upgrade was what he requested... a stiffer chassis and he got it..
so all is fair... let's be more open-minded and accept that Nicky needs a little more time to adapt... there is no doubt of his talent..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChemiKaze @ Apr 25 2007, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry to correct your statements mate... but it is official that there are two development teams one for Hayden and one for Pedrosa... Nicky requested some upgrades and he got it.. Nicky never requested the chassis upgrade.. Dani's upgrade was what he requested... a stiffer chassis and he got it..
so all is fair... let's be more open-minded and accept that Nicky needs a little more time to adapt... there is no doubt of his talent..
I think there was the appearance of fairness. But stiffening the chassis as much as they did knowing that power was going to be down significantly was a fool's errand. Now the softest chassis in the paddock is kicking their ......
After watching Turkey I'm not convinced Nicky and Elias ride similarly at all. Nicky uses the rear wheel to brake, which means his tire is gone by race end.
Elias just hangs way off and unloads the rear. Power on the 800cc is down so they don't munch tires. Less power and softer compounds means you can accelerate the bike on its side. Point and shoot died at the end of 990's b/c you couldn't even get the power down when the bike was vertical
But Elias rides the 21st century point and shoot. He stays wide, quickly puts the bike on its side, does a short little glide, then hammers the accelerator for good drive.
Genius! (just like my rhymes
)
I said I hated the 800's but after a rethink, reduced power means that early acceleration is possible again. Maybe a new version of point and shoot will be reborn.
so all is fair... let's be more open-minded and accept that Nicky needs a little more time to adapt... there is no doubt of his talent..
I think there was the appearance of fairness. But stiffening the chassis as much as they did knowing that power was going to be down significantly was a fool's errand. Now the softest chassis in the paddock is kicking their ......
After watching Turkey I'm not convinced Nicky and Elias ride similarly at all. Nicky uses the rear wheel to brake, which means his tire is gone by race end.
Elias just hangs way off and unloads the rear. Power on the 800cc is down so they don't munch tires. Less power and softer compounds means you can accelerate the bike on its side. Point and shoot died at the end of 990's b/c you couldn't even get the power down when the bike was vertical
But Elias rides the 21st century point and shoot. He stays wide, quickly puts the bike on its side, does a short little glide, then hammers the accelerator for good drive.
Genius! (just like my rhymes
I said I hated the 800's but after a rethink, reduced power means that early acceleration is possible again. Maybe a new version of point and shoot will be reborn.
