How does tyre performance effect racing?

Good question.



Since the Bridgestones for MotoGP were originally developed on the Ducati, many believe that they "naturally" suit the Desmosedici. This may have been true at the time of the 990s, but since the 800s have been introduced things changed and the Ducati as a bike actually manifested serious problems heating up these tires to the ideal temperature. Capirossi's problems in 2007, Melandri's problems in 2008, Hayden's in 2009 and finally Rossi's problems now are all testimony to the fact that the marriage between Bridgestone and Ducati (800) was not made in heaven.



Stoner has been (so far) the only rider capable to heat up the Bridgestone tires properly on a Desmosedici, and as a result he's been by far its fastest rider and in 2007 that ability gave him an (hard earned and deserved) advantage on the Michelin riders. This thanks to his personal, aggressive style that since the very first lap stresses the system hard enough to produce the heat. Also, using less TC as he does arguably helps in that. However, besides the huge skill required, doing that involves a strenuous physical effort and when for whatever reason he wasn't 100% fit, even Stoner could not stay in that 'fast zone' of the Ducati-Bridgestone system.



Last year it seemed Lorenzo was exploiting the tires better than others. This year Stoner, after all the years of hard training on the Ducati, may find it comparatively easy to exploit the Bridgestones fully on the Honda.



Ducati would probably benefit the most from a change to faster heating tires.

J4rn0 said:

Good question.



Since the Bridgestones for MotoGP were originally developed on the Ducati, many believe that they "naturally" suit the Desmosedici. This may have been true at the time of the 990s, but since the 800s have been introduced things changed and the Ducati as a bike actually manifested serious problems heating up these tires to the ideal temperature. Capirossi's problems in 2007, Melandri's problems in 2008, Hayden's in 2009 and finally Rossi's problems now are all testimony to the fact that the marriage between Bridgestone and Ducati (800) was not made in heaven.



Stoner has been (so far) the only rider capable to heat up the Bridgestone tires properly on a Desmosedici, and as a result he's been by far its fastest rider and in 2007 that ability gave him an (hard earned and deserved) advantage on the Michelin riders. This thanks to his personal, aggressive style that since the very first lap stresses the system hard enough to produce the heat. Also, using less TC as he does arguably helps in that. However, besides the huge skill required, doing that involves a strenuous physical effort and when for whatever reason he wasn't 100% fit, even Stoner could not stay in that 'fast zone' of the Ducati-Bridgestone system.



Last year it seemed Lorenzo was exploiting the tires better than others. This year Stoner, after all the years of hard training on the Ducati, may find it comparatively easy to exploit the Bridgestones fully on the Honda.



Ducati would probably benefit the most from a change to faster heating tires.

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Toni Elias begs to differ.

Mental Anarchist said:

You make a good point that I had not thought of before and that is by reducing TC the tyre gets worked harder and therefore heats up better.

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It might not be quite that simple though, i think the reality of tyre temperature is a lot more complex

Mental Anarchist said:

Undoubtedly. But maybe it is the 1% that can make the difference.

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What i was getting at is that the opposite of what you said may well be true. Removing rider aids only makes tyres less likely to be in traction with the surface, and although the surface may be heated by the abrasion, the temperatures elswhere would likely be lower and possibly outside the opperational optimums.



Also you mention in your praise of the Bridgestone tyre that it suits the multitude of the bikes on the grid, but in fact the bikes had to be developed to work with the tyres. I am not suggesting that the Tyres were developed independantly of the variety of needs, but i think the alterations made to the bikes were probably more significant.

I'm not sure that less TC helps. Remember that when McCoy was really spinning them up it was said he actually ended up with tyres that were better for longer. I appreciate they were very different tyres but presumably the principle carries over. The real issue seems to be with the carcass as opposed to the skin of the tyre. Seems that Elias for example just can't load it enough to heat it properly to work.



If Michelin were still interested it would be good to see them back some CRT bikes and try and give them some advantage. I realize this can't/won't happen but atleast if they got some custom rubber you might see them up front, even if only for the first 5 laps or so.



Just an idea.

Ah Mental, you beat me to it.

i MISS THE TIRE WARS AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT WITH IT,except the ONS", that should have never been allowed. I miss the strategy involved with running a multitude of different compounds. Like mental said, i miss the huge comebacks that were possible because one rider was superior on worn tires, or picked the right compound for the day. I miss comparing tire companies at different circuits, i miss the debates when your favorite rider does well, or bad, and its blamed on the tires instead of a body part. Like most older people, i just miss the old days.

My dream series would be

1000's with any goofy ... configuration you can dream off

no fuel limitations

very limited electronics

2 or more tire companies, the more the merrier. NO OVERNIGHTERS



I have a feeling the new formula for 2012 is not going to wow me, i love WSBK for different reasons that i love Moto GP, and the differences keep getting smaller all the time .

Many articles have been written just on Scott Russell's ability to use the 'super hard bowling ball' tire that Dunlop brought to Daytona.

He was pretty much the only one who could push hard enough to exploit it's full potential.

povol said:

i MISS THE TIRE WARS AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT WITH IT,except the ONS", that should have never been allowed. I miss the strategy involved with running a multitude of different compounds. Like mental said, i miss the huge comebacks that were possible because one rider was superior on worn tires, or picked the right compound for the day. I miss comparing tire companies at different circuits, i miss the debates when your favorite rider does well, or bad, and its blamed on the tires instead of a body part. Like most older people, i just miss the old days.

My dream series would be

1000's with any goofy ... configuration you can dream off

no fuel limitations

very limited electronics

2 or more tire companies, the more the merrier. NO OVERNIGHTERS



I have a feeling the new formula for 2012 is not going to wow me, i love WSBK for different reasons that i love Moto GP, and the differences keep getting smaller all the time .

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I think your right Pov, it aint really gonna change ...., a return to the glory days of the 990's it aint gonna be.

They need to give the teams a displacement limit and weight minimum, and that's it.



Let them factories innovate and come up with alternatives to the stagnant state that it has become, just like 500's.



In the 500's, the pole time at the BGP was very consistent low 1:32.00 range and in the past several years the 800's have been at the low 1:28.00 range.



The WSB times are very close and that should never happen.



True prototypes should be just that.

Good thread this.



Tires are increasing the most important factor in MotoGP racing today. It reminds me of an article I read last year where Bstones came out with a compound for Qatar only, in theory. LINK



Your question are very complex to be answered while still keeping eveybody awake, but I do think that allowing the tires to wear a bit more would throw another skill into the mix for the new 2012 era.

povol said:

i MISS THE TIRE WARS AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT WITH IT,except the ONS", that should have never been allowed. I miss the strategy involved with running a multitude of different compounds. Like mental said, i miss the huge comebacks that were possible because one rider was superior on worn tires, or picked the right compound for the day. I miss comparing tire companies at different circuits, i miss the debates when your favorite rider does well, or bad, and its blamed on the tires instead of a body part. Like most older people, i just miss the old days.

My dream series would be

1000's with any goofy ... configuration you can dream off

no fuel limitations

very limited electronics

2 or more tire companies, the more the merrier. NO OVERNIGHTERS



I have a feeling the new formula for 2012 is not going to wow me, i love WSBK for different reasons that i love Moto GP, and the differences keep getting smaller all the time .

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This is rarer than dodo's eggs, but I almost completely agree......



My argument against the K mart style tyre supply has been firmly directed at the lack of flex in this mentality, especially in a prototype series, the rubber is arguably one of the most important factors. I completely agree pov-Watching the potential dynamic in results week to week is what is sadly missed......hence the apt and selected description 'Aliens', this only came about in the BS control rubber era........



Jorge still has the edge in higher temps over race distance IMO, they have found a very consistent way of making the harder and to a lesser extent soft options work at all circuits, it is yet to proved, but no doubt the Honda's will improve in this area significantly this year.



Bridgestone certainly have produced an incredible tyre over race distance which seemingly doesn't go off, this is the worst aspect of it from a fans perspective, most of the spectacular races in the past have usually resulted from tyre wear and how well a rider adapts over race distance. So IMO, they've stepped forward yes, but at the same time stepped backward, maybe its a purists view of what Grand prix racing should be all about but it would be nice if they could find a way to bring back more substantial tyre wear with the 1000's over race distance.





BTW great thread Mental, PS may yet be saved.........

I think the black hoops these guys talk about week in week out are probably the most important features of the whole setup along with the rider himself. We have seen in the past the extent of which they can impact results, but its down to who can make them work -



Michelin - Only the top team riders could get the best out of them, especially the overnighters.



Bridgestones - They seem more even recently, but in 07/08 it was only really Stoner who could get them to work or change his riding to force them to work back then. Even Rossi & Burgess had to radically change the M1 to get them to work to the same effect - Result = they won the title.



With the introduction of the 1000's i dont think much will change but if they do what just about everybody wants & get rid of all but the most basic electronic bits & pieces, then i think we will get some way back to what Pov is saying as the riders will be sliding more using more of the tyre throughout the race rewarding the rider that has either looked after the tyres best, best throttle control or has the better riding style & setup to make them last.



Purists & race fans will want the tyres to be equal



Action junkies will like the guessing game of which tyre is going to work at which track at which temperature & on which compoud etc etc.



Not sure what i like really as above all i want some good ole fashion racing none of this follow the leader ........ breaking lap records etc.



Someone said it a long time ago - ~Turn the grid around for qualifying - Fastest starts form the rear, now that would provide something to behold.

^That's actually a good point. The quali tyre was cool, cause it added an another dimension to the whole deal.

Mental Anarchist said:

How else are these current tyres effecting the racing?



With all new rules in 2012 would it be a good time to change the tyre philosophy and what should be the goal?



Who do you think is benefitting most from the tyre now and who would benefit with a change to fast but less durable for an example?

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The tires are making some of the riders miserable, imo. During the 500/990 era, feel was about as important as outright performance b/c the 500s were difficult to ride, and the 990s were all about late braking and fast exit speeds (until they developed the 22L bikes). Imo, Bridgestone measure the grip achievable with a contact patch of x and a rubber compound of y. Those two variables create z cornering g's. From there, the engineers decide how hard to make the carcass in order to control the flex and temperature. The result is very hard tire carcasses that only some riders can really make use of.



As Cal Crutchlow has said, everything is the opposite with MotoGP tires. If you lack grip on a Pirelli, you back it off a bit to control the tire temperature and to reduce carcass deformation. If you lack grip on Bridgestones, you attack the corner to get a bit of flex and build some temperature. B/c you are always attacking on Bridgestone tires, it is very difficult to tell when they are about to let go. Many riders have complained about that as well.



Should they change philosophy? Yes. Will they? No. If riders can't easily make he jump from other series, they need to change the tires. MotoGP must siphon the best talent from other series. The current tires are making it very difficult for the reasons Crutchlow cited.



It's really not about making tires that go off. These tires are about as fast as Bridgestone can make them, and they last the tire race distance. They need to make the tires predictable and improve the feel, but they are unlikely to do so b/c it might reduce performance and put MotoGP in WSBKs crosshairs. A lot of people don't realize this, but the Flamminis eliminated the tire war so they could make the tires better. The old tire war in WSBK had many production-relevant restrictions. When they hired Pirelli, they knew they would eventually get the Pirelli-version of a MotoGP prototype tire. Judging by the lap times, I'd say Pirelli is getting pretty close. If Bridgestone can't offer softer tires with better feel, they should at least offer more options for carcass construction to that team owners don't end up with a Marco Melandri or Toni Elias situation on their hands. Those guys are proven GP winners, yet they can't make the Bridgestones work properly.