Honda Super Team 2011

Pigeon said:

not a lot about to post..



Honda is considering assembling a star-studded factory 'super team' for 2011 in a desperate attempt to win back the MotoGP crown.



HRC management confirmed recently they are locked in talks with Australian Casey Stoner over a big-money switch from Ducati.



But it has emerged that HRC was not only eyeing Stoner as a potential acquisition to partner Dani Pedrosa.



The Japanese factory is giving serious consideration to a three-pronged factory attack with HRC luring Stoner from Ducati to join Pedrosa and Italian Andrea Dovizioso.



HRC is desperate to snare Stoner on a lucrative deal but has denied already completing the signing of the 24-year-old, who won Ducati's lone MotoGP title in 2007.



Speculation has been rife since the Spanish GP in Jerez back in May that Stoner will leave Ducati and ride a factory RC212V next season.



But his father and manager Colin Stoner vehemently denied a recent report that a deal was already agreed for around £5m.



The issue is both Pedrosa and Dovizioso have performance clauses in their contract that automatically guarantee them a seat in the Repsol squad if they attain an agreed championship position at a certain stage of the season.



If Pedrosa is in the top three and Dovizioso in the top five around the mid-season stage, both are assured of new contracts. Pedrosa is currently second and Dovizoso third heading to this weekend's Catalunya race near Barcelona.



But that has not curtailed Honda's relentless chase of Stoner and now a three-rider factory team is a genuine possibility.



Current title sponsor Repsol are in talks over a new deal and energy drink giant Red Bull may join as an associate sponsor to help bankroll the extra RC212V needed to accommodate Stoner, who has won 20 races for Ducati.



It has also been rumoured that the Repsol line-up could remain the same, with Stoner in is own squad backed by Red Bull.



Part of the deal would also see Honda replace KTM as the supplier to the Red Bull Rookies Cup HRC Vice-President Shuhei Nakamoto said: "We are talking to Casey and also talking to Dani and Andrea.



"We are still talking but we have not yet signed Casey. We are talking with a few companies.



"Repsol and Honda have been together for 16 years and if we can continue with Repsol we are more than happy but at the same time we are talking with other companies and Red Bull is one of those."



Talking about prospect of a three-strong factory squad, Nakamoto said it was possible that Honda could extend its involvement in the premier class to seven bikes.



"If we need it yes. But four or six is better for us. With seven or eight maybe we cannot keep a similar level of performance for all riders. Now six is a little bit tough," he said.



mcn

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Repsol, Honda and Red Bull I think there is enough money between those 3 to field 3 factory bikes!!!! maybe the other factory teams will start adding more bikes too, its not going to hurt to have more than 16 bikes on the grid

Julian Ryder made an allusion to rumors about some crazy goings on at Honda for 2011. He mentioned nothing specific, but said rumors had been swirling around that Honda were going to pull out all the stops to win the final 2011 800cc season.



Do we even know that 2011 is the final season for the 800s yet?

What is "super" about proposed HRC team? Is it any more "super" than Fiat Yama?

Jumkie said:

What is "super" about proposed HRC team?

Is it any more "super" than Fiat Yama?

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It was a `super` team when Nicky rode the bike in `06.

DRILL said:

It was a `super` team when Nicky rode the bike in `06.

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yet Honda still tried to .... it up for Nicky. It has to wear on Puig and Pedrosa when they hear Hayden's name associated with it's last MotoGP championship.

L8Braker said:

yet Honda still tried to .... it up for Nicky. It has to wear on Puig and Pedrosa when they hear Hayden's name associated with it's last MotoGP championship.

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I hope it stings Puig`s ... for eternity mate.

I have speculated for awhile that Red Bull would be the new sponsor for the factory Honda team and Repsol would call it quits. Well it looks like I was partially right. Ok a tiny bit right. I would really like to see Stoner ride in a single rider team under the Red Bull banner. But what has really got me think is a possible strategy for Red Bull leading up to 2012.



A few people have commented in response to my suggestions in the past about a factory Red Bull Honda team that Red Bull don't like to just sponsor, they like to run the team. Now if my understanding of 2012 is correct there is an opportunity for a team to be built around a chassis with a factory engine or a heavily modified production engine inserted into it like the Roberts efforts of the past. Now if this is the case are Red Bull coming in now as a "sponsor" of Honda so they can build a team, get a great rider and come 2012 build there own MotoGP bike and buy an engine off Honda just like they did in F1 with a Renault engine?



If you wanted to enter MotoGP and be up the front that would be a pretty good strategy to do it and 2012 is a pretty good time also with the regs changing to favour this type of effort.

DRILL said:

I hope it stings Puig`s ... for eternity mate.

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People (using the term loosely!) like PuIG don't feel shame, or remorse.

In his twisted mind, he probably thinks Nicky should thank him for his support.

I think what is most interesting about these rumors is the Red Bull sponsorship of a 3rd satellite bike. It has been said that Red Bull have an obsession with controlling the developments and the direction of the team rather than just going along for the ride like Gresini, LCR, and Interwetten. If this rumor is true, and Stoner is put on his own separate Red Bull bike, I have to suspect that it will be a completely separate program designed to develop the bike according to Stoner's exact requests. The engines and electronics will probably be homogenized across all 3 factory bikes, but the chassis and suspension could be very different than the Repsol bikes. It makes you wonder where Honda are planning to find an entirely new development team, and it really makes you wonder where Burgess will end up.



Forcada seems to have things under control at Yamaha. Perhaps they have managed the impossible by topping the Rossi/Burgess tandem (we'll never know with the injury).



It's all very confusing to take in. Honda need an entirely new development team and a third bike sponsored by a company who are notoriously autonomous. That bears all of the marking of a guy named Valentino Rossi and his crew would certainly fit as new development personnel for Honda. However, all of the rumors at this point link Rossi to Ducati, a place that Burgess has just said he will probably not go for 2011.



Very perplexing developments.

mylexicon said:

Do we even know that 2011 is the final season for the 800s yet?

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Yes. That doesn't mean that factories will not be free to enter 800s, but they can also enter 1000s if they want to.

Kropotkin said:

Yes. That doesn't mean that factories will not be free to enter 800s, but they can also enter 1000s if they want to.

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I was just pointing out that we don't have any official communications from the governing body regarding the exact formula. I've always thought that increased displacement was a forgone conclusion, but I'm not so certain after Assen. The 81mm rules were very contentious and most of the manufacturers already run below 81mm b/c fuel restrictions and engine reliability rules act as a defacto rev limit. Even though I've been happy to discuss the possibility of CRT teams and factory 800s vs. factory 1000s. I've always kind of believed in the back of my mind that the 81mm rule would be tossed, the formula would be reduced to a single tier, and fuel would be maintained at 21L. The satellite bike situation would be worked out via engine leasing or new experimental production-based engines from BMW and Aprilia which would be supplied to private teams.



The new Moto3 proposal with its 81mm bore limitation makes me wonder about the formula b/c Honda have said "no way no how" to both increasing fuel capacity and bore limiting. The fans have been uncomplimentary of the complicated 3 tiered rules package. I can't reconcile the demands of the factories and fans with the 81mm announcement regarding Moto3, unless that rumor was simply an aside or a concept that is not inline with the current negotiations.

mylexicon said:

I was just pointing out that we don't have any official communications from the governing body regarding the exact formula. I've always thought that increased displacement was a forgone conclusion, but I'm not so certain after Assen. The 81mm rules were very contentious and most of the manufacturers already run below 81mm b/c fuel restrictions and engine reliability rules act as a defacto rev limit. Even though I've been happy to discuss the possibility of CRT teams and factory 800s vs. factory 1000s. I've always kind of believed in the back of my mind that the 81mm rule would be tossed, the formula would be reduced to a single tier, and fuel would be maintained at 21L. The satellite bike situation would be worked out via engine leasing or new experimental production-based engines from BMW and Aprilia which would be supplied to private teams.



The new Moto3 proposal with its 81mm bore limitation makes me wonder about the formula b/c Honda have said "no way no how" to both increasing fuel capacity and bore limiting. The fans have been uncomplimentary of the complicated 3 tiered rules package. I can't reconcile the demands of the factories and fans with the 81mm announcement regarding Moto3, unless that rumor was simply an aside or a concept that is not inline with the current negotiations.

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81mm is here to stay, as is the 1000cc formula. Ezpeleta has to suck MSMA ... for one more year, but after 2011, he'll be telling them in the politest possible terms to go .... themselves. Sideways. With a farmyard implement.



The formula is basically settled: up to 1000cc factory prototypes with a maximum bore of 81mm; up to 800cc factory prototypes with a maximum 81mm bore (though anyone who can explain how an 800cc bike is not "up to 1000cc" will get a prize"; and CRT bikes of up to 1000cc, with extra fuel and engines and a similar max bore of 81mm. The GP Commission gets to decide who qualifies as a CRT team (no, Mr Dall'Igna, that does NOT include you) and who is running a factory prototype. The only details left to clear up are the claiming amounts. Everyone thinks its done, including most of the main players.

Kropotkin said:

81mm is here to stay, as is the 1000cc formula. Ezpeleta has to suck MSMA ... for one more year, but after 2011, he'll be telling them in the politest possible terms to go .... themselves. Sideways. With a farmyard implement.



The formula is basically settled: up to 1000cc factory prototypes with a maximum bore of 81mm; up to 800cc factory prototypes with a maximum 81mm bore (though anyone who can explain how an 800cc bike is not "up to 1000cc" will get a prize"; and CRT bikes of up to 1000cc, with extra fuel and engines and a similar max bore of 81mm. The GP Commission gets to decide who qualifies as a CRT team (no, Mr Dall'Igna, that does NOT include you) and who is running a factory prototype. The only details left to clear up are the claiming amounts. Everyone thinks its done, including most of the main players.

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I'm glad to hear that Dorna has put themselves and the FIM back in the driver's seat. I think the MSMA were controlling GP and trying to change the "base" via GP b/c they had been cast out of WSBK. In other words, they were in denial about losing control of the WSBK formula, and Kato's death gave the MSMA the opportunity use GP as a top-down attempt to modify the production base. The inclusion of Aprilia and BMW into WSBK, and Kawasaki's defection, certainly put a damper on any plans they might have had.



However, I still see a conundrum in the last iteration of the 3-tiered GP formula. If the 1000s and 800s are going to be limited to 21L and six engines per season, why would they need to control bore? Most of the manufacturers run under 81mm to improve reliability and fuel efficiency. If they want all bikes to be 4 cylinders, they can just write a 4 cylinder rule (I believe one was included in the formula). An unrestricted 1000cc engine would make big horsepower, but it would also struggle mightily to make race distance on 21L of fuel. I can understand why a production-based CRT engine would be limited to 81mm if they have 24L of fuel, but not 21L prototypes. That rule is not popular with Honda or Yamaha who both wanted unlimited prototype specifications. Why include something that isn't necessary? Imo, it means they ARE going to change the fuel rules for MotoGP.



Also consider this. As of the beginning of this year, the fuel pressure restrictions were dropped which means direct injection is part of the sport. Imo, this will make it very difficult for new entrants if fuel stays at 21L, regardless of the capacity rules, b/c not all manufacturers have experience with direct injection. Honda have got it for sure. If Honda have got it, Yamaha and Ducati have definitely bought from someone or partnered with someone to get it. I'm not so sure about Suzuki or Kawasaki. I know BMW have the technology. I have no idea about Aprilia. Are they planning to ban direct injection again, or has Ezpeleta won the day and raised the fuel capacity?



Also consider this. At first I thought that the 81mm rule made sense b/c the manufacturers would let GP technology trickle down to the Moto2 and Moto3 level. However, Moto2 runs spec fuel to reduce costs and Moto3 would certainly run spec fuel to reduce costs (?). The Moto2 fuel rules are not descriptive and simply say that the fuel provider provides spec fuel according to the FIM's directive. This is significant b/c according to Niel Spalding the Moto2 bikes spin to 16,200rpm, but the only make 125hp at the wheel. That means LOW COMPRESSION and likely means that Moto2 is not running expensive high octane racing fuel. Low compression reduces heat and improves reliability so its probably necessary for Moto2 engine longevity. If Moto2 and Moto3 run low compression to increase engine longevity and decrease costs, the cutting edge 81mm combustion chamber technology from MotoGP will be relatively useless in the 81mm lower classes.



I'm no engineer, but I can't see any engineering link between the various classes and the 81mm rule. Perhaps it is just marketing fluff to organize the formulas nicely. I don't know, but I'm puzzled by it.

81mm is just the simplest way of controlling revs without introducing a hard rev limit (which becomes impossible to police without a spec ECU, and a spec ECU would have all of the manufacturers gone in seconds). 21 liters is here to stay, because the justification for the sport is R&D, and if the manufacturers can point to a small % increase in fuel efficiency in road bikes as a result of research done in racing, then they've saved more than they ever used in racing.



Dorna won't get its way completely, because they still need the manufacturers for now. The first move is to weaken their position. Kicking them out is step two, down the road a few years.

Kropotkin said:

81mm is just the simplest way of controlling revs without introducing a hard rev limit (which becomes impossible to police without a spec ECU, and a spec ECU would have all of the manufacturers gone in seconds). 21 liters is here to stay, because the justification for the sport is R&D, and if the manufacturers can point to a small % increase in fuel efficiency in road bikes as a result of research done in racing, then they've saved more than they ever used in racing.



Dorna won't get its way completely, because they still need the manufacturers for now. The first move is to weaken their position. Kicking them out is step two, down the road a few years.

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This all makes sense, and I totally understand the reasoning, I just can't see the reason to have both 81 and 21. Honda and Yamaha have already said they don't want bore restrictions, and bore restrictions aren't necessary unless they add more fuel. As you point out, adding more fuel would probably make the manufacturers even more angry than a bore limit.



So the question still remains, why harm the blue-skies prototype concept of MotoGP with an 81mm bore limit for factory engines if you don't need it? If you build an 81mm 1000cc engine, it will rev to 16,000rpm, but you'd be parked on the side of the track with an empty fuel tank if you tried to run it wide open.



Info is missing or I'm not drawing inferences correctly. Have you heard any rumors about when the new formula will be announced?

mylexicon said:

This all makes sense, and I totally understand the reasoning, I just can't see the reason to have both 81 and 21. Honda and Yamaha have already said they don't want bore restrictions, and bore restrictions aren't necessary unless they add more fuel. As you point out, adding more fuel would probably make the manufacturers even more angry than a bore limit.



So the question still remains, why harm the blue-skies prototype concept of MotoGP with an 81mm bore limit for factory engines if you don't need it? If you build an 81mm 1000cc engine, it will rev to 16,000rpm, but you'd be parked on the side of the track with an empty fuel tank if you tried to run it wide open.



Info is missing or I'm not drawing inferences correctly. Have you heard any rumors about when the new formula will be announced?

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You can engineer your way around 21 liters, but it's expensive: see 800cc formula. You can engineer your way around 81mm too, but the rewards don't justify the effort.



And I'm not so sure about the 1000s running out of fuel with just 21 liters. The 990s were running with 22 liters in the last two years of the formula.



As far as the GP Commission is concerned, the formula has been announced. As I said before, the only thing left to sort out is the claiming numbers.