hayden performance at Sepang day three

It looks good at the moment, but there's still a while before the racing starts, and can you really see Honda using the old engine, that would mean admitting the new one isn't perfect, not the Honda way is it?

Well, Honda's valve spring engine worked well at Valencia, it overtook Stoner.

So Nicky tested the new engine briefly, but I also think he was testing new leathers. He had his regular leathers on at the beginning of the day and then switched to an all white set. Is he testing new alpinestar leathers too?

Honda are in a lucky situation. They seem to have made the valve spring engine nearly as powerful as Ducati. Kawasaki and Yamaha both run an I-4 so they are at an automatic power and fuel disadvantage and pneumatics is the only way out of it. Suzuki are always the weakest lump in the paddock.

In other words it seems like power is limiting out on all the bikes, and pneumatics is just an expensive way to go slower (for the time being). Interestingly, the only team who seems to have sorted pneumatics is kawasaki. All the other engines don't have it, or they are still underpowered. Kawasaki make Desmo L-4 power out of an inline config. That's really impressive.

I'm not sure Nicky should try to can the pneumatics project though, he's the one who needs a few extra hp to tow him around the track.

Any manufacturer that has tried pneumatic valves are showing very little gains... why bother wasting time on it.

Its like Honda are only doing it to close the gap to Ducati... and yamaha are trying to close the gap to the Honda.

If Honda don't use pneumatic's it could be one less worry for Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 25 2008, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda are in a lucky situation. They seem to have made the valve spring engine nearly as powerful as Ducati. Kawasaki and Yamaha both run an I-4 so they are at an automatic power and fuel disadvantage and pneumatics is the only way out of it. Suzuki are always the weakest lump in the paddock.

In other words it seems like power is limiting out on all the bikes, and pneumatics is just an expensive way to go slower (for the time being). Interestingly, the only team who seems to have sorted pneumatics is kawasaki. All the other engines don't have it, or they are still underpowered. Kawasaki make Desmo L-4 power out of an inline config. That's really impressive.

I'm not sure Nicky should try to can the pneumatics project though, he's the one who needs a few extra hp to tow him around the track.
As I think you said after the last race last year, only pedrosa seemed to have bridged the power gap and as you also said this is likely related to him being the weight of a jockey. I also thought stoner/ducati's performance in that race was strange, and they were immediately much faster in post-race testing.

I really want to see nicky up there this year, but I agree he needs power to offset his weight disadvantage, and he also needs a tyre that will last the race distance. As others have said, he would likely thrive as a ducati rider.

Good qualifying session from Nicky

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jan 25 2008, 02:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any manufacturer that has tried pneumatic valves are showing very little gains... why bother wasting time on it.
There is more potential in a pneumatic valve engine, for obvious reasons. Sooner or later, teams will reach the end of the development with the conventional valve operation, and need to switch to the pneumatic system.

Pneumatics can make a lot more power than regular valves, but at the expense of efficiency. Efficiency decreases exponetially with respect to engine RPM.

Given the limited fuel that MotoGP allows, manufacturers are finding it difficult to sueeze out extra power AND have enough fuel efficiency to finish the race. The fact the Ducati was trying to get their engines to idle each time the rider tells me that even they are trying to queeze the last few drops out of the gas can.

I think this will be an entirely different scenario if the manufacturers were allowed more fuel

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jan 24 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As I think you said after the last race last year, only pedrosa seemed to have bridged the power gap and as you also said this is likely related to him being the weight of a jockey. I also thought stoner/ducati's performance in that race was strange, and they were immediately much faster in post-race testing.

I really want to see nicky up there this year, but I agree he needs power to offset his weight disadvantage, and he also needs a tyre that will last the race distance. As others have said, he would likely thrive as a ducati rider.

I may have said that, but the more I think about how big the difference in speed is between Pedrosa and Hayden, the more I think Hayden doesn't have a proper aero package.

He complained about it all year but in the beginning it didn't seem as bad as he claimed. As Honda poured on more power Nicky never really went any faster. I guess the aero on his bike is pretty pathetic, either that or the pneumatic lump didn't improve one bit all season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 25 2008, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may have said that, but the more I think about how big the difference in speed is between Pedrosa and Hayden, the more I think Hayden doesn't have a proper aero package.

He complained about it all year but in the beginning it didn't seem as bad as he claimed. As Honda poured on more power Nicky never really went any faster. I guess the aero on his bike is pretty pathetic, either that or the pneumatic lump didn't improve one bit all season.


I thought that he caught a couple podiums towards the end of the season, and was challenging in a couple races either before bad luck struck or the tires went. Seems to me he improved greatly towards the end of the season going much faster.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jan 26 2008, 05:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may have said that, but the more I think about how big the difference in speed is between Pedrosa and Hayden, the more I think Hayden doesn't have a proper aero package.

He complained about it all year but in the beginning it didn't seem as bad as he claimed. As Honda poured on more power Nicky never really went any faster. I guess the aero on his bike is pretty pathetic, either that or the pneumatic lump didn't improve one bit all season.
I am sure you are correct in saying that aero was a problem for nicky, given that he didn't seem to be able to get properly tucked or even necessarily fit behind the fairing. I am also sure that good aero as well as power contributed to the top speed and acceleration advantage of the stoner ducati. You would think that pushing the aero would have made it difficult to make the ducati handle particularly since the trellis frame etc is supposed to be archaic but perhaps the electronics in the presence of a power advantage and stoner's ability to trust the electronics or at least to ride with an unusual set-up overcame this.

One reason I agree that nicky would have been good at ducati is because of the bridgestones. Notwithstanding the aforementioned putative aero problems, nicky still managed to run fast individual laps at many circuits; however what it took for him to achieve this did not seem conducive to longevity in his michelins. As someone mentioned (?you) perhaps unusual weather and resurfaced tracks which may have affected things last year will not apply in 2008, or maybe michelin might even get their act together .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jan 26 2008, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You would think that pushing the aero would have made it difficult to make the ducati handle particularly since the trellis frame etc is supposed to be archaic but perhaps the electronics in the presence of a power advantage and stoner's ability to trust the electronics or at least to ride with an unusual set-up overcame this.

yea i agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jan 25 2008, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought that he caught a couple podiums towards the end of the season, and was challenging in a couple races either before bad luck struck or the tires went. Seems to me he improved greatly towards the end of the season going much faster.

Yeah after he tweaked the chassis a bit and turned the electronic assist down, he found good speed. It was the middle of the season where things came together for him though (like always). Good run at Assen, good luck at Sachsenring, good pace but bad luck at Laguna, good ride at Brno, good pace bad luck at RSM.

The only race that really intrigued me was PI. He was obviously running the 2008 engine. I wonder what it would have looked like if he were running the 2007 spec? I don't think his tires would have lasted but it would have been interesting to see if he could have led for a while.