gardners plan

Being a dirt rider is essential to any good tarmac rider ......... full stop.

Where the difference comes at the level of these guys is that SToner was ridiculously precocious.

Even as a junior he had an unbelievable amount of wins, so he's not just a dirt play rider ( Rossi even confessed that his big training regime to catch Stoner for 08 was ........... lots of dirt riding ) .

Not sure about Hayden ..... what is his background?

And in dirt riding there are also so many disciplines, the one Stoner came from is perfect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Nov 5 2009, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Being a dirt rider is essential to any good tarmac rider ......... full stop.

Where the difference comes at the level of these guys is that SToner was ridiculously precocious.

Even as a junior he had an unbelievable amount of wins, so he's not just a dirt play rider ( Rossi even confessed that his big training regime to catch Stoner for 08 was ........... lots of dirt riding ) .

Not sure about Hayden ..... what is his background?

And in dirt riding there are also so many disciplines, the one Stoner came from is perfect.
Hayden comes from dirt track, same as Stoner I believe. He's a top level dirt tracker, compared to .... Mann, Bubba Shobert and Kenny Roberts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 5 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As much as I respect all these former champions and riders, they have little insight into what makes a successful rider today. Gardner talked about how Stoner's dirt background has helped him ride the Ducati and that Rossi, without a dirt background, would likely struggle. Interesting theory. However, Stoner has a teammate as adept as he in the dirt, if not more so, and still finds himself a second behind Stoner. Additionally, Rossi is very quick on dirt bikes and motards. And when you are speaking of talent in the volume that Rossi possesses, experience on dirt means very little when adapting that knowledge to a grand prix motorcycle.

To say that Stoner's dirt background is what is making the difference is clearly not the case. And to say that he'd likely go faster on a Honda or Yamaha is nothing but guesswork and, based on his logic, is nothing earth shattering. Anyone on this board could surmise this. And to say that Rossi would struggle on the Ducati because of the history of riders struggling at Ducati ignores the fact that Rossi is far superior than Capirossi, Melandri and Hayden.

Sour grapes to me. I just wish that ex-racers would keep their mouths shut with regards to criticisms of modern riders. The vast majority aren't in the garages week in, week out so aren't privy to any information that the press doesn't already know. Most of which are just egomaniacs whom like to hear themselves talk. It's a shame, you look at successful guys like Schwantz and Gardner whom are well-liked, consistently shoot themselves in the foot by talking critically about today's riders.

Wow. Great post austin, and for a change nice to see someone else than the us die-hard rossi fans defending him
I just wanted to add that just like we on the forum have our bias so does the old ex-racers. Or do anyone think it's just a coincidence that gardner see Honda and dirt background as key elements to success on the track?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 5 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Points 3-5 are all bopper comments

Both rode hondas , and the only difference was the results? Oh dear. Chapters have been written about this- factory team vs privateer, tier 1 Michelins vs tier 3 Michelins etc etc

Jumkie where are you? Please post a link to appropriate rebuttal.

Well, hard to argue against you there although it should be mentioned that it is really just a reply to your own speculations regarding the importance of dirt riding.
To bring up the point that the most successful rider in the modern era have no merits in dirt riding what so ever is of course very untimely not to mention mindless

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 6 2009, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, hard to argue against you there although it should be mentioned that it is really just a reply to your own speculations regarding the importance of dirt riding.
To bring up the point that the most successful rider in the modern era have no merits in dirt riding what so ever is of course very untimely not to mention mindless


"I,m sure Rosssi is good on the dirt as well"- This is what I said.

A bit of a discrepency there.
Now Babel, you need to be more accurate if your comments are to have some credence. Jumkie has caught you doing that before!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 6 2009, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To bring up the point that the most successful rider in the modern era have no merits in dirt riding what so ever is of course very untimely not to mention mindless


Stoner ( the most successful rider in the modern era ) was from a dirt background

Even Rossi practices on dirt to try and keep up

I gather you guys have never even got a speck of dust on a tyre ?

Now you are confusing me , Barry. He wasn,t talking about Stoner! :

I,m not sure even I would call Stoner the most successful rider of the modern era.
Was the modern era Jan to Dec 2007? Fastest maybe?
I think titles count more than wins.

geez Barry, you,re madder than my mad uncle

(PS> If we are to pin the R- boppers down we have to be seen to be impartial) haha

To be logically consistent I have to ignore positive comments about stoner from gardner just as I do negative comments. As I have said before I tend not to listen to him much in general because as good as he was he harks back to his racing days too much for my taste and is frequently negative about current riders, although obviously not on this occasion.

The relevance for me is whether his comments reflect interest in stoner from hrc; I am sure he is still well connected at honda and may even be still on the payroll in some capacity.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 6 2009, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To be logically consistent I have to ignore positive comments about stoner from gardner just as I do negative comments. As I have said before I tend not to listen to him much in general because as good as he was he harks back to his racing days too much for my taste and is frequently negative about current riders, although obviously not on this occasion.

The relevance for me is whether his comments reflect interest in stoner from hrc; I am sure he is still well connected at honda and may even be still on the payroll in some capacity.


Michael, could you please have a chat to Barry for me?

Barry has a scattergun approach, where, instead, I think you try too hard to be fair.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Nov 5 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner ( the most successful rider in the modern era ) was from a dirt background

Even Rossi practices on dirt to try and keep up

I gather you guys have never even got a speck of dust on a tyre ?
Everyone trains on the dirt, there's no more convenient way than to practice dirt track and a bit of MX. Besides, it's a great way to condition your throttle hand and stay sharp with slides. My point was that it doesn't mean much of anything relative to how fast these guys can ride a grand prix bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 5 2009, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The relevance for me is whether his comments reflect interest in stoner from hrc; I am sure he is still well connected at honda and may even be still on the payroll in some capacity.
Spot on. About the only useful information in the interview. And it was sort of intriguing to hear his thoughts on riding the Ducati, just reaffirmed what everyone has been saying for the past two years. But like I said, nothing that the press doesn't already know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 6 2009, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My point was that it doesn't mean much of anything relative to how fast these guys can ride a grand prix bike.

Yes I know that was your point, however perhaps I should again make it clear ........... I disagree
I know even in my old age everyday road riding I am forever grateful I rode a tad of dirt in the past . I know of nobody other than guys who have not had that "dirt" opportunity that say otherwise, be it at any level of tarmac riding. No motogp rider has ever said anything other than dirt riding helps ....... why would you suggest otherwise?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 6 2009, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now you are confusing me , Barry. He wasn,t talking about Stoner! :


awww gee Bunyip!! .......... has there been a distinct lack of invites to surprise parties for you lately !!? .......... way to give the game away!

I was ..... following my pursuit of the fact that it is Stoner who has the most wins in "the modern era" ......... Babels past style has been to get on here and state an opinion as fact, I was contradicting that ....... and still am


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 6 2009, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Barry has a scattergun approach,

We are talking to a guy ( Babel ) who got on here telling us that Gyros can be used to find a position in a 3D environ ( and further to that on a race track ) ....... perhaps thats why I post somewhat "scattergunedly" when Babel is involved

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 6 2009, 07:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sour grapes to me. I just wish that ex-racers would keep their mouths shut with regards to criticisms of modern riders.


i dont see how gardner is ripping into any of the current riders. he is expressing his views on dani, which is quite complimentary and also was complimentary to rossi aswell.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 6 2009, 07:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As much as I respect all these former champions and riders, they have little insight into what makes a successful rider today. Gardner talked about how Stoner's dirt background has helped him ride the Ducati and that Rossi, without a dirt background, would likely struggle. Interesting theory. However, Stoner has a teammate as adept as he in the dirt, if not more so, and still finds himself a second behind Stoner. Additionally, Rossi is very quick on dirt bikes and motards. And when you are speaking of talent in the volume that Rossi possesses, experience on dirt means very little when adapting that knowledge to a grand prix motorcycle.

To say that Stoner's dirt background is what is making the difference is clearly not the case. And to say that he'd likely go faster on a Honda or Yamaha is nothing but guesswork and, based on his logic, is nothing earth shattering. Anyone on this board could surmise this. And to say that Rossi would struggle on the Ducati because of the history of riders struggling at Ducati ignores the fact that Rossi is far superior than Capirossi, Melandri and Hayden.

Sour grapes to me. I just wish that ex-racers would keep their mouths shut with regards to criticisms of modern riders. The vast majority aren't in the garages week in, week out so aren't privy to any information that the press doesn't already know. Most of which are just egomaniacs whom like to hear themselves talk. It's a shame, you look at successful guys like Schwantz and Gardner whom are well-liked, consistently shoot themselves in the foot by talking critically about today's riders.

+1

Great Post, Austin, and really nothing more to be said........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Nov 5 2009, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes I know that was your point, however perhaps I should again make it clear ........... I disagree
I know even in my old age everyday road riding I am forever grateful I rode a tad of dirt in the past . I know of nobody other than guys who have not had that "dirt" opportunity that say otherwise, be it at any level of tarmac riding. No motogp rider has ever said anything other than dirt riding helps ....... why would you suggest otherwise?
I spent my childhood on dirt bikes, I didn't take to a street bike until I was 19. I know the importance of riding in the dirt. That being said, when you are talking about comparatively unfathomable talent like these guys have, a background in dirt versus a background on 125s isn't going to make much of a difference. When the 990s were out sliding around everywhere then I would have agreed with you in the sense that improved throttle control and a big comfort zone going sideways was an advantage.

I don't believe that's the case anymore. And the proof resides on the opposite side of Stoner's garage.

Much as I respect your posts Austin,I think you are being too adamant here. I think the truth lies halfway.
Like all things, being good at something involves a multitude of factors and skills. Just as Stoner being good on the dirt doesn,t automatically prove he is the best rider, two good dirt bike riders aren,t necessarily going to be equal in talent in motogp. Shades of grey.

If Casey does have an edge over Rossi, all other things being equal, it could well be because of his superior dirt track background. Hayden may be worse than he is, if he had no dirt backround.
Biaggi never quite reached the pinnacle because everything had to be too precise, he couldn,t cope when things were a bit "loose". Thats my take on it anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 5 2009, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Much as I respect your posts Austin,I think you are being too adamant here. I think the truth lies halfway.
Like all things, being good at something involves a multitude of factors and skills. Just as Stoner being good on the dirt doesn,t automatically prove he is the best rider, two good dirt bike riders aren,t necessarily going to be equal in talent in motogp. Shades of grey.

If Casey does have an edge over Rossi, all other things being equal, it could well be because of his superior dirt track background. Hayden may be worse than he is, if he had no dirt backround.
Biaggi never quite reached the pinnacle because everything had to be too precise, he couldn,t cope when things were a bit "loose". Thats my take on it anyway.
Thanks. Sorry if I'm coming off as pushy, not my intent. I'm not trying to say that being a good dirt rider has nothing to do with Stoner's speed, however I don't think it's the X factor in his enigmatic speed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 5 2009, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"Rossi can ride anything" Where does this come from? He won on the Honda, he wins on the Yamaha. I don,t think two very similar japanese racing motorcycles quite constitute "everything" but in Rossi-bopper land who knows?

Only Champion on 125, 250, 500, 990, 800cc categories...
Only Champion that has won on 6 different bikes/makes...
Has won with Bridgestone, Michelin and Dunlop...
Etc. etc.

You are saying that is 'Not' everything there has been in Rossi's way to be the best? It may not be everything but surely is anything! (A new case of half emty half full Non-Rossi Boppers!).

Who cares about dirt? Those would be subjects of another Forum, perhaps Rallies?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 7 2009, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not trying to say that being a good dirt rider has nothing to do with Stoner's speed, however I don't think it's the X factor in his enigmatic speed.


Oh well that I agree with ...... it would be nice to know exactly what the X Factor was precisely but I think there are far too many individual characteristics that go to make it up.

Even some of the things about his persona that some see as flaws on here, are part of that X Factor, but had he not had any competitive dirt experience, we would not see him at the level he is.
As would be the same should any other ingredient of the X Factor be missing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Nov 6 2009, 03:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was ..... following my pursuit of the fact that it is Stoner who has the most wins in "the modern era" ......... Babels past style has been to get on here and state an opinion as fact, I was contradicting that ....... and still am

Well, there is opinions and there is opinions.
You:
- Rossi is to old
- Rossi to end 4th ( in '08)
- Soner the best in the modern era
- best rider = most wins (in your selctive time span)

You just go on "contradicting" BM, I'm allways up for a good laugh, and you sure know how to construct funny ideas and "opinions".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Nov 6 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i dont see how gardner is ripping into any of the current riders. he is expressing his views on dani, which is quite complimentary and also was complimentary to rossi aswell.....


Pinky is correct. I think I am going to after saying that...

The only two things that could be considered "ripping" would be his comments on the Duc, which isn't any different than what anybody else has said. And the worst he said was about Honda.