Ducati, the "different" bike

See how different is the Ducati design from any other GP bike, it's really original (click on images to enlarge them or see animations):



You can see how the engine is an integral (in fact the main) part of the structure - no deltabox here.
The swingarm is hinged directly into the engine case, other than that swingarm and rear suspension are pretty standard in themselves:



The engine is an L-4 whose main characteristic is the "desmodromic" valve control system. Instead of a spring (or pneumatic system) to bring the valve back to its closed position, a rocker arm and additional cam is used. The main advantage of the desmo system is not so much the higher rev possible, achievable also with stronger springs or pneumatic systems, but the fact that in low and mid ranges the engine does not have to work so hard to push the valve springs (to close a valve at 18,000 rpm a very strong spring is needed, and this strong spring has to be compressed to open the valve each time using the same amount of work even at lower rpm's, with a considerable waste of energy). So the desmo actually gives better power in the mid-range, and this advantage becomes more important in a 800cc rather than in a 990cc of course



Then there is the electronics... No pictures on that, which many consider one of the key advantages of the GP7. Filippo Preziosi, the Ducati designer, said that they worked a lot on software because it was something cheap to develop, and they do not have immense resources like the Jap giants...

He also said you have to try something different if you hope to beat the likes of Valentino Rossi and Honda. Interesting...

Well, I know most of you already know all this, but as an homage to Ducati's original technology I thought it was nice to post

I bet Honda are pissed off right now

so where are the pics and vids you speak of you ......?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(xx CURVE xx @ Nov 6 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]99224[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
so where are the pics and vids you speak of you ......?


Why, dont u see them? Still using Win 95 on a 10 yrs old pc?

Ducati has one good season, and everyone thinks they work on water. Not to take anything away from them. their accomplishment this year, given the size of the company is truly amazing.

Also, keep in mind that while Honda and Yamaha were busy dueling for the championship on the 990cc bikes, Ducati had given up hope and already started on the 800cc model, long before the others -- giving them a head start.

The Honda's bike is already as fast, if not faster then the Ducati. Next year will be really interesting.

their technology is very smart but its not future proof.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Nov 6 2007, 11:41 PM) [snapback]99358[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
their technology is very smart but its not future proof.

I have some acqaintance with physics, but little with mechanical engineering.

However it does seem possible to me, particularly in view of the information in J4rn0's post which opened this thread, that the desmo valve system does offer a fairly unique advantage under the current rules, particularly the current fuel restrictions. Rossi has stated that the pneumatic-valved yamaha engine made more power but had problems with fuel efficiency which would accord with my knowledge of physics.

I agree that honda would appear to have caught up ducati's top speed advantage, at least with 48kg dani on board, but I am not so sure about acceleration. The times at today's testing would seem to indicate that as well as being defeated by dani's superlative ride ducati's race set-up may not have been ideal. Stoner's times after FP1 were quite patchy and his pace on race tyres did not improve, going backwards if anything.

I acknowledge that whatever their faults as a GP racing manufacturer (I incline to the view that they are the evil empire) honda are great at building engines, and perhaps they can come up with an engine which is more powerful than the ducati's and still efficient without using desmo valves.

I would be interested to know what some of our more technically knowledgeable members including J4rn0 think about this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Nov 7 2007, 11:07 AM) [snapback]99422[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I acknowledge that whatever their faults as a GP racing manufacturer (I incline to the view that they are the evil empire) honda are great at building engines, and perhaps they can come up with an engine which is more powerful than the ducati's and still efficient without using desmo valves.

I would be interested to know what some of our more technically knowledgeable members including J4rn0 think about this.


Of course they will find something that works. They may not have their valve train optimized as well as Ducati in the near future, but there are other areas to make up the difference and other tradeoffs that affect how the engine performs. Like them or not honda still have the resources to make a bike win races at any level.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 7 2007, 01:53 PM) [snapback]99439[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Of course they will find something that works. They may not have their valve train optimized as well as Ducati in the near future, but there are other areas to make up the difference and other tradeoffs that affect how the engine performs. Like them or not honda still have the resources to make a bike win races at any level.


This is of course true and I am sure even at Ducati they did not expect to be THIS succsessful.

Regarding the desmo, it is noteworthy that they are all going the way of pneumatic valve control to counter the Ducati desmo, but nobody is trying to develop their own desmo system.

This is because in the hi-tech marketplace pneumatic valve control technology is something available to a certain extent - there are components you can buy to build a prototype and test it, there are electronic systems already developed to control it, - whereas if you want to go the desmo way, you have to build your own from scratch in every detail and it could be something that takes years to become really competitive at the GP level.

There is also a Ducati patent on their particular system, but I don't think that would be an obstacle since desmo as a concept has been around for many decades. Mercedes tried it on its racing cars in the '50s, but failed and dropped it. Another sign that it is not something trivial to implement competitively at the racing level.

I perhaps phrased my post poorly (shouldn't have said perhaps at least in that post) but the point I was trying to make, or agree with J4rn0 about, was that the desmo valve gear might offer a unique advantage in that area not easily matched in the short term.

I am sure honda, at least, have the engineering resources and money to come up with whole new technologies in other areas of engine design also beyond my ken , particularly if the ducati still makes more power next year and causes even more loss of face.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Nov 7 2007, 06:50 AM) [snapback]99478[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
...but the point I was trying to make, or agree with J4rn0 about, was that the desmo valve gear might offer a unique advantage in that area not easily matched in the short term.
I think their has advantage is already been neutralized after watching Honda's performance at valencia.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(crvlvr @ Nov 9 2007, 02:59 AM) [snapback]99854[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think their has advantage is already been neutralized after watching Honda's performance at valencia.


Hmmm, the Ducati advantage in 2007 was not just top speed (they have had more or less the highest top speed since 2003) but the way they reach it. This year they have been consistently fastest even on short straights also, and that means better acceleration out of the last corner - this can be attributed to the better efficiency of the desmo engine in the mid-range, exhalted by the smaller 800cc displacement. This has become more usable thanks to the better side grip of the Bridgestone rear tyres and a well-tuned TC.

The big question remains though, - why only Stoner has been able to fully exploit the Ducati-Bridgestone advantage? Maybe it is not so easy to translate it into lap times, after all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(J4rn0 @ Nov 9 2007, 01:30 PM) [snapback]99919[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
This year they have been consistently fastest even on short straights also, and that means better acceleration out of the last corner -

I think if you remember back to mugello Yamaha, rossi and burgess gave the world a masterclass in setting up a bike to shoot down short straights to cover a top speed advantage. Ducati couldn't keep up with that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 9 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]99931[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think if you remember back to mugello Yamaha, rossi and burgess gave the world a masterclass in setting up a bike to shoot down short straights to cover a top speed advantage. Ducati couldn't keep up with that.


They managed it there because the rubber was up to the task that day - but it was one of the few exceptions. One of the reasons Rossi wants Bridgestones is that they have better side grip, allowing for more throttle while bringing the bike up.

I don't think ducati got their set-up and tyre choice perfect at every race, even though they probably nearly always had good tyre choices available to them. A couple of capirossi's better performances were when he made different tyre choices to stoner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(J4rn0 @ Nov 9 2007, 03:44 PM) [snapback]99937[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
They managed it there because the rubber was up to the task that day - but it was one of the few exceptions. One of the reasons Rossi wants Bridgestones is that they have better side grip, allowing for more throttle while bringing the bike up.


I think Stoner has been a good advert for bridgestone this year though. when his abilities don't come free with the tyres some people might be disappointed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 9 2007, 03:06 PM) [snapback]99931[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think if you remember back to mugello Yamaha, rossi and burgess gave the world a masterclass in setting up a bike to shoot down short straights to cover a top speed advantage. Ducati couldn't keep up with that.


Wouldn't they not just shorten the gears let rossi use his skill on the twisty parts and he has the gap if needed on the straight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Nov 9 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]99945[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Wouldn't they not just shorten the gears let rossi use his skill on the twisty parts and he has the gap if needed on the straight.

As well as rossi's completely undeniable skill do you think it is vaguely possible that while the ducati had engine and very likely traction control advantages the yamaha may have actually handled better?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Nov 9 2007, 04:17 PM) [snapback]99953[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
As well as rossi's completely undeniable skill do you think it is vaguely possible that while the ducati had engine and very likely traction control advantages the yamaha may have actually handled better?


yea it always has as far as i remember but this season the ducat is looking very nimble too.

I like their new fairing also.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Nov 9 2007, 04:52 PM) [snapback]99941[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think Stoner has been a good advert for bridgestone this year though. when his abilities don't come free with the tyres some people might be disappointed.


That is a good point and it will be interesting to see what happens!
If there is one rider out there who can exploit good rubber as Stoner does, that is Rossi imo.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Nov 9 2007, 05:17 PM) [snapback]99953[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
As well as rossi's completely undeniable skill do you think it is vaguely possible that while the ducati had engine and very likely traction control advantages the yamaha may have actually handled better?


Yes, but not better than the Hondas that are also nimble, - anyway this year it wasn't enough because the Ducati handled pretty well too, at least with Stoner on board.