ducati patents semi-monocoque motogp frame for roadbbikes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Feb 28 2010, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I wasn't frequenting this site during the gyro conversation, but...

Yes, gyro's drift. Over time and, in Real-time.

I work in the aerospace industry and have written software for Secondary Fight Displays amongst other things. SFDs include an Artificial Horizon Indicator.

SFDs have 3 gyros and an accelerometer. At start-up an SFD screen shows a count down, eg for 60 seconds. This is so that the gyros/acc can be calibrated. Any movement of the aircraft or an inclination of greater than a few degrees will cause the countdown to reset. Once the calibration is complete, compensation data has been calculated for all 3 axes and the accelerometer. The software then uses this data in its algorithms, resolving any long term drift issues.

The system also includes two tilt sensors - horizontal and vertical. These are accurate within +/- 60 degrees dependent on the accelerations they are experiencing. The system resolves real-time drift in the gyros using the tilts together with the accelerometer and corrects towards "reality" (the tilts) whenever appropriate (ie when not under large accelerations). The software for the system is far from trivial, but definitely feasible for MotoGP.

Using such a system, together with an electronic odometer which is reset every time the bike crosses the finish line, will provide you with sufficiently accurate information to determine which corner you are in. This would allow engine maps per corner, a la GPS.

The "Magic Story" : Properly designed software can often be used to correct weaknesses in hardware.


And yet ....... with all that supposed technology .... it is not done in motogp .... why Yamaka?

How big is the equipment needed for a complete system?

What is the operating range of the equipment?

You don't feel that the rapid direction changes experienced in MGP aren't somewhat excessive for such a system?

I put it to you it is far from feasible for motogp. If you feel otherwise surey you would be out there selling such a system

I'll believe it when it happens Yama

And so it goes...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me guess, you thnk you can use gyro's to find a position on track too !!

Now why do I not think thats surprising


You can't use gyros to find your position on a track ...... there I'll say it again. Nobody has cured the drift problem with gyros even today. I fyou think they have post the "magic story" showing so.

Put your name to it all those "forum folk" that believe otherwise. We can have it on record once and for all.

Sadly known physics facts have aready disproved "Babels Gyro theories" many years ago.


Your "kids skids" theory is out there, so I need say no more. And like the "gyro theory" it is a laugh a minute

And what make you think position based mapping system need a 100% absolute position. Software making a "map" based on gyro only needs to know what turn it's in to feed the mapping/TC. It can be reset at every new lap and the gyro/g-meter and other sensors give the details in the turn.
Printing the lap as I describe was something I saw my self and it was done by commonly available software/hardware in around 2002. SBK and motoGP must have had it years earlier.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 28 2010, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Printing the lap as I describe was something I saw my self and it was done by commonly available software/hardware in around 2002. SBK and motoGP must have had it years earlier.

Well do post us a technical description won't you Babel, something I can peruse tp see just how they do it.

Could you make it a bit more technically oriented than your "stands eye view" of how Stoner operates his throttle too, co that was a bit difficult to take as ........ real.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Feb 28 2010, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hallelujah!!! Yamaka, mon ami, where were you last April? You could have saved me gigabytes of wasted time and effort trying to explain this to BM (see here: http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...t&p=183578). Apparently BM was/is of the opinion that drift cannot be corrected for and as such has never been, and can never be used for location... even in a closed race circuit which should be simpler than your application.
Mick, I have painstakingly provided links, quotes and video evidence to support the fact that the application of the rear brake and the downshift collectively constitute the racing technique of 'backing it in' and explain the difference between this and a powerslide. When Barry alleged that he could find no reference to Nicky's larger rear disc, I even provided a link to support that.

Whether or not Barry regards these as 'kids skids' is immaterial - he seems completely unable to comprehend that this practice is commonplace in road racing motocross and supermoto. He does not appear to be able to differentiate between the basic terminology and is utterly unable to appreciate that I'm not personally advocating the rear brake or even the downshift as a practitioner of 'backing it in' myself, rather simply showing that this is an acknowledged method of sliding when slowing for a corner. Barry's view is that you simply shut the throttle, and position the body and the bike takes care of the rest.

I keep mentioning the gyro thread because it not only exposes his idiocy, but that as '22 said recently, however many links or compelling arguments you provide, Berry simply ignores them or responds with puerile and facetious comments to the contrary.

I maintained that it was like trying to reason with a child - I was wrong. More a deluded old ....... in total denial of himself, juggling senile dementia and the advanced onset of alzheimer's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And yet ....... with all that supposed technology .... it is not done in motogp .... why Yamaka?
It's not done in MotoGP as all that is needed is to know which corner the bike is in and a cheap COTS GPS does the job just fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How big is the equipment needed for a complete system?
The latest SFD I worked on (last year) included an Air Data module (for measuring pitot & static pressure), the inertial sensors and a 2.5" x 2.5" display. It needed to be shielded from EMC, capable of withstanding a salty, humid and/or sandy environment (eg helicopter applications) and designed to be zero maintenance. Despite all the extra gubbins, size wise it was a 2.5" x 2.5" x 8" box. The inertial sensor pack was 1.25" square.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is the operating range of the equipment?
Operating temperature range -40 to +70C. Not sure what other ranges you had in mind? As far as attitude range - see below.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You don't feel that the rapid direction changes experienced in MGP aren't somewhat excessive for such a system?
One of the SFD variants I have worked on was for the highly acrobatic BAe Hawk - the gyros are accurate to 550deg/sec.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I put it to you it is far from feasible for motogp. If you feel otherwise surey you would be out there selling such a system
Of course it's feasible for MotoGP. The processor used in the SFD's I've worked on is a very old floating point TMS320C33 (<span style="color:#0000FFTexas Instruments DSP) from the mid 1990s. It is not high speed, high intensity, latest technology, military grade hardware we are talking here. The reason no-one is selling such a system to the MotoGP manufacturers is the fact that the rules allow the use of GPS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll believe it when it happens Yama
If Dorna was incredibly mis-guided and banned GPS, but allowed complex electronics, I'm sure I'd be in touch with my old colleagues in order to develop a system to sell to Yamaha. Until then, it obviously won't happen in MotoGP. That does NOT mean that the technology is not available, just inappropriate given the current rules.

Despite all your eyerolling, this technology functions well in real acrobatic environments. Sensor drift can and has been corrected by software, thus keeping me gainfully employed for the last few years

I posted this for you Arab in your other thread:

http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=12055

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for the invite PM Arab.

Well thats a lot to be assuming from one pretty ordinary vid. of a few guys out mucking around

Since you guys seem to want to learn to do it by never leaving the couch maybe this will help:

http://www.supermotoracer.com/SMR%20Tech%2...s2_backitin.pdf

"Backing it in is not always the fastest way
through a turn, but when it is necessary it
helps to know how to do it smoothly without
wasting time or losing control. One common
misconception is that a rider must use the rear
brake to initiate the slide. The slide actually
starts with a combination of front brake,
engine braking and the initial lean into the
turn. The rear brake is a secondary tool to control
speed and the rear wheel. At no time is the rear
wheel supposed to lock up or skid due to the
rear brake. If the rear locks up, a rider can
easily lose control and valuable seconds. Study
a pro-level rider and understand that no matter
how sideways or flat they get, the rear wheel is
always spinning."



how old are you kids anyway ? with the exception of Rog. and Jumkie I know that agewise they are not young.

Its pretty obvious you guys have no idea of the reality of riding, so Arab all I can assume is you really do want to learn? but have some weird agression thing happening cos it isn't like you imagined it would be done like, and I understand it is not easy to get a ride these days however,

again, all I can say is try your hardest to get hold of a ride to practice on and you will see what they talk about when they say such as the above. Even at Supermoto speeds, its not like a pedal powered bike. When you talk the higher speeds of a dirt tracker or a road bike, its amuch more sensitive and delicate "art/skill". Talking and reading about it don't help you diddly squat.


Here's somethign for you to imagine ........ you could take off all the brakes on a bike, and just leave me with the clutch and throttle and I could slow it to a stop ......... read that article then tell me how you think I would do it.

I asked my son the other day on hashe ever heard of starting a bike sliding with the rear brake and or downshifting, I did not prime him at all just said straight out ..... " XXXX how do youthrow a bike into a slide", his first reaction was ........"crack the throttle" ......... so its nothing like you guys are dreaming. I would more have said I back off momentarily first then crack it but then again its probably very corner dependent.

but brakes and/or downshifting .............. fail. Thats just doing skids like on a pushbike

You posted nothng but wildly speculative crap the upshot of what you are suggesting is very wrong and possibly even dangerous ....

Although I am loath to do this I feel an intoxicating need to do it anyway - kind of like smoking rock and about as good for my brain... KTM Supermotard riding primer, BARRY - NO SPECULATION HERE:


I've been an instructor for the Supermoto School here in the UK and this is how we teach it based upon how the top European SM riders - those who really know how to do it!

First, lets tackle backing it in, then we'll look at drifting....

1. bike setup - just keep it the same as normal and what you're used to - changing settings will make the bike feel different and therefore how will you know how it feels to start sliding? Making changes adds to the confusion and as with engine development - do one thing at a time!

2. Understand the process first and what we're trying to achieve:

a) It's not just to look good - it's about getting the bike into a better position to get the rider through and out of the corner as fast as possible.

Backing it in is therefore about getting the bike pointing further in the direction you want the bike to go so that you're then able to get on the throttle harder and earlier, and spending less time leaning too far over to get on the throttle properly - if you know what I mean.

This should also answer the question as to when to back it in - only when it's the best thing to do - in other corners, knee down superbike style may be the best and fastest way round - use your judgment - it depends on the corner.

It's about preparing for getting out of the corner fastest therefore it is about being set up for getting straight on the gas when you hit the apex or point at which you want to fire out of the corner (whichever is most appropriate).

This should answer your question about what and how many gears you need to knock it down as you back it in - if it is a first gear corner, you knock the gearbox down to first, if it is second, you knock it down to second. And that means even if you're in sixth gear and you approach the corner. It is not as scary as it sounds and we'll build up to that....

c) You never lock the rear wheel - but you do break traction (obviously).

To do this with good control and stability you will use a mixture of the gearbox, clutch and rear brake. Notice that I don't mention the front - that is because as per normal you'll most probably be braking as hard as you can with the front brake - so nothing has changed there then

3. Breaking the traction - which is what we need to do first. This is done with the gearbox - dropping down the required number of gears and the literally dumping the clutch - after you have started leaning the bike over. As the traction breaks, the rear wheel will slight out sideways.

The best way to practice this is in a car park or somewhere similar where you can simply go straight back and forwards, making sharp turns at each end round a cone or something. For the purpose of practice select the place to do it so that you can get up to third gear, going down to first. As you ride towards your corner, make sure you're sat well forwards on your seat and if possible your body position should at the very least be held completely in line with the bike as you leaning but ideally should always be leaning slightly further to the inside even with your inside bum cheek slightly off the seat - do not whatever you do try ti sit on the bike like they do in MX (you'll find out why later). The following steps happen in rather quick succession:

1. You start breaking for the corner with your front brake to transfer weight to the front (that's also one of the reasons you need to sit forwards on the bike).
2. As you begin to brake you will obviously pull in the clutch and now drop down two gears.
2. Begin leaning yourself and bike into the corner - just do this gradually for now
3. Dump the clutch - just let it out suddenly.

You will find out if you have the right amount of lean angle into the corner when the rear begins to break away sideways. To begin with an inch feels like a mile, that is why you gradually increase lean angle. When you get used to it you'll happily do it whatever lean angle you're at.

What you will find when practicing this is that the rear will slide out and very quickly come back into line before the apex - we resolve this with the rear brake.Get used to this breaking away feeling first using only the gearbox and clutch.

The reason the rear brake is used is to maintain a constant but slow rotation of the rear wheel. What you'll have noticed is that if you just use your clutch, the engine revs quickly increase as friction between tyre and tarmac pull the wheel round quicker - that is why you experience the rear coming into line quite quickly. The rear brake is used to add more friction so that engine revs don't rise and the rear wheel maintains its slower rotation. That is all the rear brake is used for! So it is done gently!

So lets add this to the above process:

1. Set yourself up on bike, begin breaking with the front and add a little rear brake
2. Drop down through the gears
3. Lean in
4. Dump clutch

You will notice whether you're getting the rear brake pressure right by how well the bike maintains its slide to the apex. When you practice this you will also know why we only add the rear brake after you've learnt how to initiate the slide.

What you may also notice when doing these exercises is that the rear wheel may begin hop - this is rectified by using the clutch and just pulling it in very slightly.

As you practice the above you will also notice that the degree to which you're sliding varies and that you can vary it yourself, depending on the corner - this is done using the clutch and very slight adjustments on the clutch lever as your backing it in to the corner - this bit is the bit that really requires the practice and skill and marks the difference between those who can slide and those who can sliiiiiiide.!

You may notice that none of this means you have to be absolutely on it or riding aggressively to slide - it's actually a very gentle technique when you get to know it.

That should be enough to get you started........

As for the drifting bit, I think the first thing you need to do is get used to doing it on your sm bike with slicks on loose gravel or something similar and as above doing this between a couple of cones so that you're going round a couple of really tight turns getting on the power so that the bike spins round the corner, if necessary with your inside foot on the ground to give support. The really important thing to remember is that as the bike begins to slide you lean your body to the inside of the bike and also ever so slightly bringing the bike more upright (look at dirttrackers). Once you've got comfortable with this on the loose stuff, then get onto tarmac and begin with learning how to do donuts, first with the bike really leaning over stood still and with one leg on the ground. Then get used to breaking traction and pivoting yourself on you leg round in circles as the rear burns away (it is also quite good to start this on loose stuff to get used to the feel).

One point about drifting and that is really difficult for some riders to get their heads around is that you do not, whatever you do, chop the throttle! If a drift starts going too far you regulate it by holding the throttle and/or by pushing the bike more upright.

As an interesting point Valentino Rossi practices his drifting in a quarry with a bike with an MX front tyre and road rear tyre!

This should also be enough to get you started.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well do post us a technical description won't you Babel, something I can peruse tp see just how they do it.

Could you make it a bit more technically oriented than your "stands eye view" of how Stoner operates his throttle too, co that was a bit difficult to take as ........ real.

No way in hell BM, as you repeatedly refuse to acknowledge facts here on the forum replying to you are in general a total waste of time. Doing a decent write up would be abuse of time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Feb 28 2010, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mick, I have painstakingly provided links, quotes and video evidence to support the fact that the application of the rear brake and the downshift collectively constitute the racing technique of 'backing it in' and explain the difference between this and a powerslide. When Barry alleged that he could find no reference to Nicky's larger rear disc, I even provided a link to support that.

Whether or not Barry regards these as 'kids skids' is immaterial - he seems completely unable to comprehend that this practice is commonplace in road racing motocross and supermoto. He does not appear to be able to differentiate between the basic terminology and is utterly unable to appreciate that I'm not personally advocating the rear brake or even the downshift as a practitioner of 'backing it in' myself, rather simply showing that this is an acknowledged method of sliding when slowing for a corner. Barry's view is that you simply shut the throttle, and position the body and the bike takes care of the rest.

I keep mentioning the gyro thread because it not only exposes his idiocy, but that as '22 said recently, however many links or compelling arguments you provide, Berry simply ignores them or responds with puerile and facetious comments to the contrary.

I maintained that it was like trying to reason with a child - I was wrong. More a deluded old ....... in total denial of himself, juggling senile dementia and the advanced onset of alzheimer's
Its an amazing look into the mind of one incapable of admitting to being wrong... in the face if incontrovertible evidence he will continue to deny, deflect and defame. It verges on pathological.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Feb 28 2010, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
No way in hell BM, as you repeatedly refuse to acknowledge facts here on the forum replying to you are in general a total waste of time. Doing a decent write up would be abuse of time.
Yamaka's done it well enough anyway... 'Nuf said!

Did that anonymous guys method work Mick?

Is that how you initiate slides/back it in ?


Or is the descrition of Matt Pursley more what you do?

I would have stopped reading that KTM forum one the moment he said "add a little rear brake"

I agree with Matt Pursely:

"As a rider becomes more
accomplished, the bike naturally starts to float
into the turns—don’t try to speed up the process
by leaning on the rear brake and skidding the
bike into the turn as it could spell disaster"




Mick how often have you slid a bike round a corner?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And yet ....... with all that supposed technology .... it is not done in motogp .... why Yamaka?

Because;
1. At the time it was discussed it was few if any who used position based mapping.
2. GPS is cheaper and easier to get accurate results from.
3. The debate came out from a suggested ban of GPS to stop any position based mapping. That's when I said that would be of little to no use as there are many other ways to arrange a position based mapping. Gyro being one of them.

So there you go, that's why you don't see them in MotoGP. Anything else you are wondering about? I probably won't answer but you can always ask.

Edit: and for the second time in a row I see that Yamaka has in full done a much better job than me, even without the history of the epic gyro-tread in the back of his head. Impressive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did that anonymous guys method work Mick?

Is that how you initiate slides/back it in ?

Now I get in the mode of discussing other interesting physical matters:
Why can't a shaft bike wheelie?
Why do counter steer work the opposite way at the southern hemisphere?
...
BM, help me out here, you always seems to have the wildest suggestions.

Cool this is like me v's the Boppers!!

and I've already cleaned up on the kids skids!!


Getting back to Babel's Gyros Theory ASAP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 28 2010, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Cool this is like me v's the Boppers!!

and I've already cleaned up on the kids skids!!


Getting back to Babel's Gyros Theory ASAP.
The only cleaning up on skids you'll be attending to is when you press the button to call the duty nurse in order to change your soiled underwear you deranged old fool.

Ok I'm not really fully back into the Babel says they can use Gyros Theory, its getting late ...... but afer the brief read I am calling ........ already Yamaka.

This system you speak of that you could construct if need be ........ explain how I could reliably use it to react to a specific part of the track .........


Gee the silly thing is that this is all hyperthetical, cos nobody does it ....... because theres way better ways for a start!!! and two because thankfully its not allowed by rule anyway I'm off to bed for now Bopper Army. Pleasant skids

I might practice interpreting videos in my sleep, so I can see what Arab sees ........ he's as good as Babel

I don't know why you guys wasting time to explain things to BM, i can only hope that he makes sense to himself of his BS.

Is this Ducati gearing up for an all out assault on the WSBK title(s) in a year or two?Could be catch up time for other manu`s again!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 1 2010, 03:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The only cleaning up on skids you'll be attending to is when you press the button to call the duty nurse in order to change your soiled underwear you deranged old fool.

I cleaned up the moment you tried telling folks that a slide is initiated by using the back brake and downshifting. You just don't realise it