Dovizioso

Keshav said:

Crazy to think on it - but the Honda has become not unlike the Ducati of 2007 in that no-one can get it on the top of the podium except the one stand-out freakishly talented rider in the series.

I seriously think, if HRC had retained Dovi instead of buying him out of his contract all those years ago - they'd have by now developed a much more user friendly machine.

If Rins can come from behind and blow by a guy with as much racecraft as Rossi with that kind of confidence, the Yamaha is definitely in trouble. People going on and on about how fabulous the Yamaha is - are repeating memes from years ago. Yamaha simply has not kept up these last two seasons.

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Cal shows the strength of that bike. He's been extremely fast at every race. He had pace very similar to MM at Argentina after his ride through. He would've smoked Rossi and Dovi. Even at Austin, he was flying through the pack before he crashed.

If a healthy Lorenzo can't get his head around it, I'd agree that it's more like the 07 Duke.

Theo said:

Maybe for some, Rossi looks like he's diseased, he's gaunt with skin and no flesh.

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I don’t know about looking diseased, but he is gaunt, he needs to be at 6 foot odd to compete with his current rivals, many of whom are midgets. After reputedly not doing much in the way of physical training early in his career he apparently trains rigorously now. You have to admire his commitment, and this year at least given he seems to be concentrating on his on track game his continued competitiveness.

Why he feels the need to keep going after all he has achieved is another question, although I guess he is one heavy fall by MM on to his shoulder away from being right in the mix for a glorious 10th title.

Keshav said:

....
I seriously think, if HRC had retained Dovi instead of buying him out of his contract all those years ago - they'd have by now developed a much more user friendly machine........

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Nope. Why wouldn't they give Doohan and Burgess the bike they wanted? Or Burgess and Rossi. They didn't give Nicky a bike. They gave Dani a bike that was probably still too powerful for him. And he happened to have to compete against Lorenzo, Rossi and Stoner. All better riders. He had a first place points year, and still got second. That is tough.

While everyone sees Honda and their street machines as a "sedate stalwarts", they have been wild in racing for decades. Their motto has been "power, agility, and YOU deal with the consequences. You're the paid rider."

RCV600RR said:

Cal shows the strength of that bike. He's been extremely fast at every race. He had pace very similar to MM at Argentina after his ride through. He would've smoked Rossi and Dovi. Even at Austin, he was flying through the pack before he crashed.

If a healthy Lorenzo can't get his head around it, I'd agree that it's more like the 07 Duke.

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Cal has of course had time to acclimate to the Honda. Took a while but he's grown into it. I for one had my doubts for a while - but yes, he's come a long way.

As said before - it HRC had retained Dovi - the bike would most likely have been developed in a more user friendly fashion. But with MM winning on the bike in spite of itself, their R&D has not needed to be focused for that purpose. Historically - that seems to be the way with HRC. With Spencer - he was a phenom. Doohan was a determined beast of a rider, and so on.

Iamapony said:

Nope. Why wouldn't they give Doohan and Burgess the bike they wanted? Or Burgess and Rossi. They didn't give Nicky a bike. They gave Dani a bike that was probably still too powerful for him. And he happened to have to compete against Lorenzo, Rossi and Stoner. All better riders. He had a first place points year, and still got second. That is tough.

While everyone sees Honda and their street machines as a "sedate stalwarts", they have been wild in racing for decades. Their motto has been "power, agility, and YOU deal with the consequences. You're the paid rider."

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Exactly - the coldly pragmatic Japanese treating the rider as if he were merely a component made of some rare element that only they knew how to exploit. That approach drove the pre-Stoner riders at Ducati nuts because the failed component was in their opinion always the rider.

Keshav said:

Exactly - the coldly pragmatic Japanese treating the rider as if he were merely a component made of some rare element that only they knew how to exploit. That approach drove the pre-Stoner riders at Ducati nuts because the failed component was in their opinion always the rider.

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Ducati did a remarkable job imo to produce a bike which was at all competitive whoever was riding given the Ducati Corse operation in the 990 and early 800 days was about the size of KRSR’s, if better funded by Marlboro money. The 990 bike sans Stoner was competitive in most seasons, and possibly with Capirossi on board had championship potential in 2006 given better luck accident/injury wise. Where they erred imo was in going along with the prevalent paddock view that it was a significantly superior bike which rode itself rather than the guy riding it which won the 2007 title, then again going along with the general view and blaming Stoner when their idiosyncratic bike became less competitive as tyres which suited that bike became unavailable.

michaelm said:

Ducati did a remarkable job imo to produce a bike which was at all competitive whoever was riding given the Ducati Corse operation in the 990 and early 800 days was about the size of KRSR’s, if better funded by Marlboro money. The 990 bike sans Stoner was competitive in most seasons, and possibly with Capirossi on board had championship potential in 2006 given better luck accident/injury wise. Where they erred imo was in going along with the prevalent paddock view that it was a significantly superior bike which rode itself rather than the guy riding it which won the 2007 title, then again going along with the general view and blaming Stoner when their idiosyncratic bike became less competitive as tyres which suited that bike became unavailable.

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Always been a fan of the underdog, hence my appreciation of Ducati, early on because while they weren't winning championships, they sure as hell were giving the Japanese teams headaches with Capirossi regularly at the front fighting it out with the favorites (and man - that iteration was a fugly bike too) but I also can't forget the mistreatment of Melandri who was (is) a talented rider. My point was, that they really didn't embrace the idea of putting aside their pride in their unique engine design and weird chassis and seriously focus on making the bike rider friendly - until they were mortified by the international attention to the bike that the "great Valentino Rossi" couldn't get anywhere near the podium. The introduction of the control tire and loss of the special attention of Bridgestone was in the end a good thing because they could no longer avoid working on that aspect of suspension. It was a .... time for Rossi - but the crucible in which they developed a world-beater bike. Having Gigi on board didn't hurt.