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Dovi speaks out against Ducati...and it's awesome

Everybody blames Ducati and no mention of Dorna's instance in changing the rolling rulebook to give and deny advantage at will, all of them detrimental to this manufacturer. They dismantled their ability to work with a tire supplier, they introduced an engine rule that was detrimental to their design, the tire development has continued development away from their needs to the point they were forced to acquiesce to the twin-spar chassis now literally in its infant stage while this platform has been perfected over decades by Honda & Yamaha. Is it any real wonder why they are floundering? The Povols and his ilk of the world will tell u the rule book is the same for everybody, this without the fine understanding that the rulebook is basically writen at HRC. I said it many years ago, Ducati should have left the series in 08 when Dorna effective destroyed their project. Back then at least they could have competed in Wsbk, now they're ....... Im happy to see the project further embarrassed, especially now that Nicky is leaving. As i see it, their failure is an indictment on Dorna's influence over the competition decidedly for those they favor (a point repeatedly ignored and misunderstood by most). Not sure what keeps them in the series, their stupid (shared by many spectators) lack of understanding the control Dorna have over competition or the executives happy to just be participants (the Ducati teams on the ground want to win while the executives employ the Suzuki model of GP competition--expose of participation being the aim).
 
Jumkie
3621911380604085

Everybody blames Ducati and no mention of Dorna's instance in changing the rolling rulebook to give and deny advantage at will, all of them detrimental to this manufacturer. They dismantled their ability to work with a tire supplier, they introduced an engine rule that was detrimental to their design, the tire development has continued development away from their needs to the point they were forced to acquiesce to the twin-spar chassis now literally in its infant stage while this platform has been perfected over decades by Honda & Yamaha. Is it any real wonder why they are floundering? The Povols and his ilk of the world will tell u the rule book is the same for everybody, this without the fine understanding that the rulebook is basically writen at HRC. I said it many years ago, Ducati should have left the series in 08 when Dorna effective destroyed their project. Back then at least they could have competed in Wsbk, now they're ....... Im happy to see the project further embarrassed, especially now that Nicky is leaving. As i see it, their failure is an indictment on Dorna's influence over the competition decidedly for those they favor (a point repeatedly ignored and misunderstood by most). Not sure what keeps them in the series, their stupid (shared by many spectators) lack of understanding the control Dorna have over competition or the executives happy to just be participants (the Ducati teams on the ground want to win while the executives employ the Suzuki model of GP competition--expose of participation being the aim).
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I wondered when this would start, yes they changed the rules but it was a one rider bike even with the old tyre, Honda and Yamaha made their bikes work when tyres get changed, Ducati have had five years to get that bike to work, regardless of the rule changes, you can't blame Dorna for that. that the problems lie in the heart of Preziosi,s  concept can be seen clearly in the WSB team, even the out dated and four year old design was better, when Ducati entered motogp, they were on the pace straight away, why? because they had been building competitive four stroke race bikes for years in wsb, when motogp changed Ducati failed to keep up, then they introduced a flawed concept, whist I agree the rule changes should not have happened, you can't blame Dorna for Ducati's engineering failures.
 
Even Aprilia are able to best the Ducati most weekends. Ducatis problem is they persist with what seems to be a flawed concept, they could throw any rider at that bike and best they could manage regularly is ti distantly shadow the satellites.
 
thedeal
3622051380616482

I wondered when this would start, yes they changed the rules but it was a one rider bike even with the old tyre, Honda and Yamaha made their bikes work when tyres get changed, Ducati have had five years to get that bike to work, regardless of the rule changes, you can't blame Dorna for that. that the problems lie in the heart of Preziosi,s  concept can be seen clearly in the WSB team, even the out dated and four year old design was better, when Ducati entered motogp, they were on the pace straight away, why? because they had been building competitive four stroke race bikes for years in wsb, when motogp changed Ducati failed to keep up, then they introduced a flawed concept, whist I agree the rule changes should not have happened, you can't blame Dorna for Ducati's engineering failures.
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BMW for one won't join in the first place because they see the game as fixed by the MSMA in the MSMA's  favour, although I guess they would say that. Ducati weren't alone in being discomfited by the rule changes either, Suzuki and Kawasaki actually left.


 


If as it seems Aprilia can build an engine from scratch that better suits the current formula Ducati should be able to do so as well though. 
 
michaelm
3622311380623649

BMW for one won't join in the first place because they see the game as fixed by the MSMA in the MSMA's  favour, although I guess they would say that. Ducati weren't alone in being discomfited by the rule changes either, Suzuki and Kawasaki actually left.


 


If as it seems Aprilia can build an engine from scratch that better suits the current formula Ducati should be able to do so as well though. 
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Agreed, the rule changes are bollocks, but as I have stated, Honda and Yamaha have adapted, even Aprilia have managed to convert a road based bike in the right direction, the problems at Ducati are not being caused by Dorna.
 
I half agree, mm.

But BMW had a bike that never went past MotoGP test stage, then worked out how difficult even SBK is. Try selling that lot to the fuckers making $$$ with X5s and spending more $ rebranding 2 doors as M4s.
 
thedeal
3622381380624773

Agreed, the rule changes are bollocks, but as I have stated, Honda and Yamaha have adapted, even Aprilia have managed to convert a road based bike in the right direction, the problems at Ducati are not being caused by Dorna.
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I did say the MSMA, not Dorna.
 
Dr No
3622391380624837

I half agree, mm.

But BMW had a bike that never went past MotoGP test stage, then worked out how difficult even SBK is. Try selling that lot to the fuckers making $$$ with X5s and spending more $ rebranding 2 doors as M4s.
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They were eventually pretty competitive in WSBK, but I agree spending lots of money to not always beat the likes of Suzuki, Kawasaki etc perhaps lost attraction fairly quickly when there is much money to be made out of their "premium" car brand as you say.


 


I was referring mainly to BMWs argument that the technology for the fuel economy formulae which have held sway for some years in premier class GP racing, and basically unique to that class, give a huge disadvantage to any new manufacturer trying to join the category, which seems reasonable. If Suzuki come back with a bike which is competitive in short order it will perhaps expose them. Dorna seem to agree with their argument to an extent, with the fuel concessions to the "non-prototype" bikes including Aprilia.
 
Fuel formulae?

BMW has ditched Naturally Aspirated for turbos in cars thanks to CO2 requirements. Perhaps it's a battle of philosophy, Honda wish to prove their NA expertise, while BMW has killed theirs off. And it doesn't fit (if we accept the the argument) the pitch to the board that GP racing requires, well there you have their retreat from NA racing.

Pure speculation, though. Let's see what happens in F1
 
Jumkie
3621911380604085

[...........] <strike>they </strike> Honda introduced an engine rule that was detrimental to their design, the tire development has continued development away from their needs to the point they were forced to acquiesce to the twin-spar chassis now literally in its infant stage while this platform has been perfected over decades by Honda & Yamaha. Is it any real wonder why they are floundering? The Povols and his ilk of the world will tell u the rule book is the same for everybody, this without the fine understanding that the rulebook is basically writen at HRC. [...........]
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This would have been a fine post, Jum. 
 
Dr No
3622481380628373

Let's see what happens in F1
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Something that not a lot of people are talking about at the moment. Could be very interesting to see if the turbo formula can bring BMW back as an engine supplier.
 
michaelm said:
 
If as it seems Aprilia can build an engine from scratch that better suits the current formula Ducati should be able to do so as well though. 
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Extra fuel, extra engines, wasnt enuf until they got a special tire. Please let theDeal know that arbitrary rules effect the competition on the ground in ways that he doesn't seem to understand, because I either cant affectively explain it or hes just not listening (at best).
 
Jumkie
3622641380647547

Extra fuel, extra engines, wasnt enuf until they got a special tire. Please let theDeal know that arbitrary rules effect the competition on the ground in ways that he doesn't seem to understand, because I either cant affectively explain it or hes just not listening (at best).
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I fully understand the advantages Aprilia are getting, what I am saying that you are to stupid (at best) to get is, Aprilia and all the other CRTs are moving forward (within their group) every year, Ducati have not, and that is down to Ducati full stop.
 
thedeal
3622681380647886

I fully understand the advantages Aprilia are getting, what I am saying that you are to stupid (at best) to get is, Aprilia and all the other CRTs are moving forward (within their group) every year, Ducati have not, and that is down to Ducati full stop.
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too stupid, if you're going to be pedantic. Might I suggest you calm the rhetoric if you haven't met a poster in person?


 


<u>You don't know</u> whether Aprilia is really moving forward, or at what rate. Initial progress tends to be faster than what can be achieved near the theoretical limits. Furthermore, they get different tires and fuel regs. That's  2 major variables, making a reasonable assessment impossible. Honda's R&D budget is $300mm. Ducati's race budget is allegedly $20mm. Aprilia's is unknown, but there is no comparison.


 


Also, there is clearly a problem with leadership hubris at Ducati. One example is them not letting Nicky ride the Jerez monocoque GPXX, which was 1.5s faster. Ignoring progress in order to focus, allows for neither. Finally, never once have I heard of Audi's race team consulting with Corse. This is clearly another major oversight. I'm not surprised, given the German culture's tendency toward rigid linear thought. But it is a shame.
 
clarkjw
3622741380649676

too stupid, if you're going to be pedantic. Might I suggest you calm the rhetoric if you haven't met a poster in person?


 


<u>You don't know</u> whether Aprilia is really moving forward, or at what rate. Initial progress tends to be faster than what can be achieved near the theoretical limits. Furthermore, they get different tires and fuel regs. That's  2 major variables, making a reasonable assessment impossible. Honda's R&D budget is $300mm. Ducati's race budget is allegedly $20mm. Aprilia's is unknown, but there is no comparison.


 


Also, there is clearly a problem with leadership hubris at Ducati. One example is them not letting Nicky ride the Jerez monocoque GPXX, which was 1.5s faster. Ignoring progress in order to focus, allows for neither. Finally, never once have I heard of Audi's race team consulting with Corse. This is clearly another major oversight. I'm not surprised, given the German culture's tendency toward rigid linear thought. But it is a shame.
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Jum and I have been trading insult for a long time, so mind your own business on that score, and obviously you are pretty dumb as well,  The tyre/ fuel and engine allowance within that group is the same for all, Aprilia have advanced within their group, Ducati have not advanced within their group but Honda and Yamaha have. yes there are many problems within Ducati, but these are not caused by Dorna as your friend says they are.
 
Dr No
3622481380628373

Fuel formulae?

BMW has ditched Naturally Aspirated for turbos in cars thanks to CO2 requirements. Perhaps it's a battle of philosophy, Honda wish to prove their NA expertise, while BMW has killed theirs off. And it doesn't fit (if we accept the the argument) the pitch to the board that GP racing requires, well there you have their retreat from NA racing.

Pure speculation, though. Let's see what happens in F1
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BMW are kiling off their DNA, but turbocharged engines is not part it. The 2002 turbo is an integral part of their brand DNA, and the vehicle pre-dated any of the naturally-aspirated M vehicles. The era of power-dense naturally-aspirated series production engines was a post-digital engineering fad, and I'm not surprised it is going away.
 
mylexicon
3622781380653296

BMW are kiling off their DNA, but turbocharged engines is not part it. The 2002 turbo is an integral part of their brand DNA, and the vehicle pre-dated any of the naturally-aspirated M vehicles. The era of power-dense naturally-aspirated series production engines was a post-digital engineering fad, and I'm not surprised it is going away.
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Het Lex, I used to own a 2002 turbo, I will dig out some photo's and post them up, one of those cars you should always keep.
 
thedeal
3622751380650221

 The tyre/ fuel and engine allowance within that group is the same for all, Aprilia have advanced within their group, Ducati have not advanced within their group but Honda and Yamaha have. yes there are many problems within Ducati, but these are not caused by Dorna as your friend says they are.
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Yet you tried to make comparisons 'across' groups, which is why your assertion elicited a relevant response.  Now you are changing the argument, yet even still you're not accounting for the variables (cited for you above) for respective class.  Please reread clarkjw's post, "initial progress tends to be faster".  Add to this, at the outset the parity between CRTs was wildly unknown, and another variable you’ll need to factor in is the spectrum of riders aboard this class.  So measuring Aprilia's progress is damn near impossible, though I'd love to read your case for it.
 
Now lets take your new argument, as you have now framed it “advance within their group”.  What advancement have Honda and Yamaha made relative to eachother?  As I see it, they have maintained about the same parity respective to eachother.  The Ducati was behind and remains behind, in other words the “advancement within this group” relative to each other has remained static. So not sure why you are saying Yamaha and Honda have advanced within their group.  Its more akin to an arms race, and frankly Ducati have been out gunned, but I submit to you (as clarkjw also noted) there is a reason for that.
 
I understand you don’t see how the rules imposed have affected the projects.  But for a moment, please consider the repercussion.
 
Jumkie
3622851380657217

Yet you tried to make comparisons 'across' groups, which is why your assertion elicited a relevant response.  Now you are changing the argument, yet even still you're not accounting for the variables (cited for you above) for respective class.  Please reread clarkjw's post, "initial progress tends to be faster".  Add to this, at the outset the parity between CRTs was wildly unknown, and another variable you’ll need to factor in is the spectrum of riders aboard this class.  So measuring Aprilia's progress is damn near impossible, though I'd love to read your case for it.
 
Now lets take your new argument, as you have now framed it “advance within their group”.  What advancement have Honda and Yamaha made relative to eachother?  As I see it, they have maintained about the same parity respective to eachother.  The Ducati was behind and remains behind, in other words the “advancement within this group” relative to each other has remained static. So not sure why you are saying Yamaha and Honda have advanced within their group.  Its more akin to an arms race, and frankly Ducati have been out gunned, but I submit to you (as clarkjw also noted) there is a reason for that.
 
I understand you don’t see how the rules imposed have affected the projects.  But for a moment, please consider the repercussion.
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No I am not changing the story, Aprilia have moved on within its group and Ducati has not, that has been my point all along, fact.  as for your second part saying Honda Yamaha and Ducati have stayed the same, it is you who has harped on all year that the Honda has moved on and is now far better than the Yamaha. Jum if you are going to make .... up just to fight your corner there is no point. this discussion is taking place because you said Ducati's problems were caused by Dorna. now you are not mentioning that part any more,  there is no point in going any further, as the old saying goes, never argue with an ..... as they will bring you down to their level and beat you on experience.
 

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