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Okay I got it.
Motogp is ...... up
WSBK <strike>is</strike> was getting better
Dorna/Bridgepoint(less) who owns ...... up buys good
Then they say, good is ...... up.
They will fix "problems" with good by applying solutions that should have been applied to ...... up.
Logic - the teams like Honda who are developing the V4 superbike will not have much opportunity to jump ship from one to the other, as Honda threatened during one of the many "anti Stoner" rule change threats from Dorna to Honda.
Dorna effectively told Honda, don't you dare pay that cnt 15 millions Euro's to ride, employ two ....... Spaniards.
Theory: Casey was thinking about a return in WSBK. He has enough credibility to sink Dorna's rowboat by going to that series.
Motogp is ...... up
WSBK <strike>is</strike> was getting better
Dorna/Bridgepoint(less) who owns ...... up buys good
Then they say, good is ...... up.
They will fix "problems" with good by applying solutions that should have been applied to ...... up.
Logic - the teams like Honda who are developing the V4 superbike will not have much opportunity to jump ship from one to the other, as Honda threatened during one of the many "anti Stoner" rule change threats from Dorna to Honda.
Dorna effectively told Honda, don't you dare pay that cnt 15 millions Euro's to ride, employ two ....... Spaniards.
Theory: Casey was thinking about a return in WSBK. He has enough credibility to sink Dorna's rowboat by going to that series.
People need to see the big picture. Changes are happening in GP and WSBK b/c neither the FIM nor the MSMA provide any leadership. In the end, Dorna and the private teams are the parties whose fate rests solely upon the sport. They make the investment, but more importantly they take the business risks (the manufacturers do not incur risk from the sport's going-concern).
Until recently, Dorna were willing to let the fate of the sport rest in the hands of the manufacturers, but the MSMA are opportunistic. A basketball team with the tallest players is going to raise the hoop, and the teams with the deepest pockets are going to fiddle with the rules until they win (21L). The lack of competition is in their short-term benefit, but at the expense of Dorna and the private teams. In the long run, lack of competition is to the detriment of the manufacturers, but in un-Japanese fashion, they don't seem to 'get' the long-term view. To make matters worse, the MSMA's assessment of the sport is also rooted in its business concept. The MSMA view MotoGP as a branding exercise, which included unrestricted technological/financial warfare, until recently. WSBK on the other hand, is a marketing exercise for motorcycle companies who can all achieve a certain level of technological sophistication from both production manufacturing and race tuning. They do not pursue what works for the sport, but what works for the corporate strategists.
The MSMA is not able to reach consensus amongst themselves regarding concepts and regulations, and they are obviously not interested in what Dorna have to say. As a result, Dorna engage in CYA financial controls to protect themselves, their investors, and the private teams who share Dorna's fate. Though it sucks, this insurance strategy is to the benefit of any fans who want to see MotoGP/WSBK survive beyond 5-10 years.
Dorna's ownership of WSBK is preferable, not only b/c they have the media platform to improve viewing for the fans, but also b/c Ezpeleta seems to have the requisite competence to stop a runaway train before it jumps the tracks. This is why Bridgepoint put him in charge and sent the Flamminis packing.
Hopefully, the MSMA will pull their heads out before Dorna's cupidity becomes an ingrained style of management.
Until recently, Dorna were willing to let the fate of the sport rest in the hands of the manufacturers, but the MSMA are opportunistic. A basketball team with the tallest players is going to raise the hoop, and the teams with the deepest pockets are going to fiddle with the rules until they win (21L). The lack of competition is in their short-term benefit, but at the expense of Dorna and the private teams. In the long run, lack of competition is to the detriment of the manufacturers, but in un-Japanese fashion, they don't seem to 'get' the long-term view. To make matters worse, the MSMA's assessment of the sport is also rooted in its business concept. The MSMA view MotoGP as a branding exercise, which included unrestricted technological/financial warfare, until recently. WSBK on the other hand, is a marketing exercise for motorcycle companies who can all achieve a certain level of technological sophistication from both production manufacturing and race tuning. They do not pursue what works for the sport, but what works for the corporate strategists.
The MSMA is not able to reach consensus amongst themselves regarding concepts and regulations, and they are obviously not interested in what Dorna have to say. As a result, Dorna engage in CYA financial controls to protect themselves, their investors, and the private teams who share Dorna's fate. Though it sucks, this insurance strategy is to the benefit of any fans who want to see MotoGP/WSBK survive beyond 5-10 years.
Dorna's ownership of WSBK is preferable, not only b/c they have the media platform to improve viewing for the fans, but also b/c Ezpeleta seems to have the requisite competence to stop a runaway train before it jumps the tracks. This is why Bridgepoint put him in charge and sent the Flamminis packing.
Hopefully, the MSMA will pull their heads out before Dorna's cupidity becomes an ingrained style of management.
if it is not broke, then why fix it
So who foots the bill for BMW doing all that testing, it certainly isn't Dorna. So what is the next step, no testing until Dorna says so. Dorna are placing too many restrictions on WSBK and the Spanish MotoGP championship, control tyres, fuel and limited engines, what next 100mph speed limit!
So who foots the bill for BMW doing all that testing, it certainly isn't Dorna. So what is the next step, no testing until Dorna says so. Dorna are placing too many restrictions on WSBK and the Spanish MotoGP championship, control tyres, fuel and limited engines, what next 100mph speed limit!
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dorna seem to .... up so far (surprise surprise) but lets not forget that wsbk was and is in need of change.
up until now its still great racing with awesome de-facto prototype bikes but if i were to believe biaggi (who said that current wsbk spec electronics are at the same level as motogp in the 990 era ) i don't want to see unlimited electronics and all that comes with it further developed.not to speak of the increasing costs,relatively weak grid and most importantly to me the big gap between wsbk level bikes and what is used in the national series. wsbk can easily be strengthened by welcoming wild cards from the top national championship teams/riders.
up until now its still great racing with awesome de-facto prototype bikes but if i were to believe biaggi (who said that current wsbk spec electronics are at the same level as motogp in the 990 era ) i don't want to see unlimited electronics and all that comes with it further developed.not to speak of the increasing costs,relatively weak grid and most importantly to me the big gap between wsbk level bikes and what is used in the national series. wsbk can easily be strengthened by welcoming wild cards from the top national championship teams/riders.
Jumkie
WSBK is a production racing series. The manufacturers are supposed to sell the fangs and claws. If they refuse, WSBK will be detuned like AMA and BSB. Neither AMA nor BSB have anything to do with Dorna so you won't really have an argument if it happens.
Dorna's motivation is to earn money, and they can't earn money if they kill WSBK.
WSBK is a production racing series. The manufacturers are supposed to sell the fangs and claws. If they refuse, WSBK will be detuned like AMA and BSB. Neither AMA nor BSB have anything to do with Dorna so you won't really have an argument if it happens.
Dorna's motivation is to earn money, and they can't earn money if they kill WSBK.
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If you set the rules well, there's no reason why it needs to be the manufacturers providing the fangs and claws. There are a plethora of firms able to supply suitably specified equipment. Which not only brings benefits to a greater field than leaving it to the manufacturers, but brings it closer to the way Proddy racing used to be...
Dr No
Third-party manufacturers work from a technological standpoint, but engine, transmission, and frame component manufacturers lack a workable business model, given the current levels of sophistication and the low bike count.
If WSBK were to specify steel connecting rods or solid titanium rods of a specific alloy and construction, third party companies would probably participate. If WSBK specified that stock piston crown dimensions must be maintained, and they placed restrictions on the types of aluminum alloys, and perhaps the static compression ratio, parts would be abundant.
I wouldn't be opposed to such rules, but many fans would regard the new rules as "dumbing down". Furthermore, swimgarm manufacturing would still be a serious complication with the control tire. If teams can't get the power to the ground with a proper swingarm, why bother with the engine? The SBK racing industry would also still have the inherent inefficiencies associated with decentralized race-bike manufacturing (unlike centralized homologation specials).
Maybe the top series can have open homologation for technology-controlled components, but the smaller series need kits or homologation specials to utilize economies of scale.
Third-party manufacturers work from a technological standpoint, but engine, transmission, and frame component manufacturers lack a workable business model, given the current levels of sophistication and the low bike count.
If WSBK were to specify steel connecting rods or solid titanium rods of a specific alloy and construction, third party companies would probably participate. If WSBK specified that stock piston crown dimensions must be maintained, and they placed restrictions on the types of aluminum alloys, and perhaps the static compression ratio, parts would be abundant.
I wouldn't be opposed to such rules, but many fans would regard the new rules as "dumbing down". Furthermore, swimgarm manufacturing would still be a serious complication with the control tire. If teams can't get the power to the ground with a proper swingarm, why bother with the engine? The SBK racing industry would also still have the inherent inefficiencies associated with decentralized race-bike manufacturing (unlike centralized homologation specials).
Maybe the top series can have open homologation for technology-controlled components, but the smaller series need kits or homologation specials to utilize economies of scale.
mylexicon
BSB is the most followed domestic series on the planet and second only to WSB and they have adopted the above rules,far from dumbing it down the fans and riders are loving it,WSB should follow and go back to their roots before the homologation specials took it to where it is now,as production as possible and no expensive electronics,at the end of the day you will still have a field of cheapish 200+ bhp monsters what is there not to love??
BSB is the most followed domestic series on the planet and second only to WSB and they have adopted the above rules,far from dumbing it down the fans and riders are loving it,WSB should follow and go back to their roots before the homologation specials took it to where it is now,as production as possible and no expensive electronics,at the end of the day you will still have a field of cheapish 200+ bhp monsters what is there not to love??
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Indeed, deal.
And who is supplying the BSB gearboxes? Third parties or the OEMs?
I don't buy the bad business model, Lex. Nor the sophistication issue: These are proddy bikes. What's stopping anyone with a set of gear hobs making clusters? Or a grinder making cams? Valves and collets aren't rocket surgery. Nor are Conrods.
It's a different class, but I don't see the issue in Moto2, with how many almost 'hobbyist' teams? The requirements of SBK mean even less innovation is required, chassis-wise. There are whole clusters of businesses making this stuff, now. I wouldn't necessarily like to look at their balance sheets, but they do operate.
Anyway. I've never been a fan of Superbikes - the racing, yes. The whole silhouette schtick, no.
And who is supplying the BSB gearboxes? Third parties or the OEMs?
I don't buy the bad business model, Lex. Nor the sophistication issue: These are proddy bikes. What's stopping anyone with a set of gear hobs making clusters? Or a grinder making cams? Valves and collets aren't rocket surgery. Nor are Conrods.
It's a different class, but I don't see the issue in Moto2, with how many almost 'hobbyist' teams? The requirements of SBK mean even less innovation is required, chassis-wise. There are whole clusters of businesses making this stuff, now. I wouldn't necessarily like to look at their balance sheets, but they do operate.
Anyway. I've never been a fan of Superbikes - the racing, yes. The whole silhouette schtick, no.
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In the end, if Honda has made threats to quit the series and do something else, maybe they do what they had said they may do years ago by starting their own series with the other manufacurers. It isn't like that couldn't be done. The companies are seemingly interested in one direction and the Spanish Championshit guys are only tryin to make it into a highly controlable situation. So maybe the bike makers band together and take a proverbial dump on all the other series and just do their own thing. Why don't they treat it like the NFL where they hire a commissioner, the team owners are all on the same page with how they league should run and no one else tries to Eff it up like Dorna or even the FIM. It could be done. Don't doubt that if sales start to drop due to lack of coverage of the win on sunday sell on monday mainstay. It would be very easy to just drop out of both series and have a whole new thing ready to go within a year or two with the proper people and planning. It is too easy to not do anything right now cause there still is that snowballs chance in hell that the dipsy doodles at Dorna will get it right. They haven't so far, but ya never know.
Dr No
You guys don't need to sell me on the virtues of technological restrictions. BSB has third party suppliers b/c they restrict mass and material of the connecting rods. BSB require stock pistons. BSB require stock valves. BSB allow one set of racing gears, and I'm sure the homologation restricts width and material. BSB have spec electronics. BSB still have a problem with the factory swingarm, but its easier to convince a factory to lease swingarms, than to lease two dozen prototype engine components and factory electronics.
In a world without homologation specials or race-only homologations, technological restrictions are necessary. I like what AMA and BSB have done. I'm particularly keen on the fixed rev limit in BSB (surely in AMA as well), but you're not going to sway people like Povol or Jumkie. They will insist that Dorna have killed production racing to save MotoGP.
You guys don't need to sell me on the virtues of technological restrictions. BSB has third party suppliers b/c they restrict mass and material of the connecting rods. BSB require stock pistons. BSB require stock valves. BSB allow one set of racing gears, and I'm sure the homologation restricts width and material. BSB have spec electronics. BSB still have a problem with the factory swingarm, but its easier to convince a factory to lease swingarms, than to lease two dozen prototype engine components and factory electronics.
In a world without homologation specials or race-only homologations, technological restrictions are necessary. I like what AMA and BSB have done. I'm particularly keen on the fixed rev limit in BSB (surely in AMA as well), but you're not going to sway people like Povol or Jumkie. They will insist that Dorna have killed production racing to save MotoGP.
Dr No
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Jumkie
Having no particular love for WSBK (I've never been a big fan of 4-stroke racing, even an RCV doesn't excite me as much as a now-ancient NSR/YZR/RGV), I will confess that I am a little indifferent to their plight. I went right off them when it started being reported that the factories were spending more on their SBK efforts than 500GP [though they fixed that little issue by going all Otto-cycle in GPs....]
I am slightly more interested in production racing than the quasi-proto class SBK became/become. That said, what differentiated it was closer racing than 500/MotoGP, so I'm not sure how bringing them closer to production bikes is an issue - commentators can then say "...just like you can buy in a showroom!!1!one!!" without me facepalming. The caveat is that the closeness of racing is maintained. If new rules do that, I am puzzled as to the problem?
[Edit: Let me add that I think Alonso's comments in the linked article is lame. Though, what scares me more than Dorna tinkering with the regs to provide differentiation between SBK and MotoGP, is them tinkering with the coverage...]
Having no particular love for WSBK (I've never been a big fan of 4-stroke racing, even an RCV doesn't excite me as much as a now-ancient NSR/YZR/RGV), I will confess that I am a little indifferent to their plight. I went right off them when it started being reported that the factories were spending more on their SBK efforts than 500GP [though they fixed that little issue by going all Otto-cycle in GPs....]
I am slightly more interested in production racing than the quasi-proto class SBK became/become. That said, what differentiated it was closer racing than 500/MotoGP, so I'm not sure how bringing them closer to production bikes is an issue - commentators can then say "...just like you can buy in a showroom!!1!one!!" without me facepalming. The caveat is that the closeness of racing is maintained. If new rules do that, I am puzzled as to the problem?
[Edit: Let me add that I think Alonso's comments in the linked article is lame. Though, what scares me more than Dorna tinkering with the regs to provide differentiation between SBK and MotoGP, is them tinkering with the coverage...]
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Doc N. i honestly dont understand ur issue with Wsbk as described above. As i understand it, ur lack of interest with series is they spend too much on modifications for the top class? Then skip the Wsbk class and enjoy the superstock all u want. (Make no mistake, Dorna intend to make it all some form of "stock". And NOT for some notion of purism.
For me, im fascinated what a team can do with a bike that started off as "something u could by at a dealer". Truth is, thats is in fact the derivative. So to get it where they do, to me, is amazing. Even more amazing is they can approach what "full prototype" bikes can run (shelving tires factor) on a fraction of budget. For me, 'if' i want to see guys run "stock" "production" bikes, i head to the club races. But to each his own....
In AMA we use to have a "superbike" class, and a 'formula extreme' AND a superstock. I suppose one could make case for what was/is one's interest and it make sense, me personally, i enjoyed all three classes.
For me, im fascinated what a team can do with a bike that started off as "something u could by at a dealer". Truth is, thats is in fact the derivative. So to get it where they do, to me, is amazing. Even more amazing is they can approach what "full prototype" bikes can run (shelving tires factor) on a fraction of budget. For me, 'if' i want to see guys run "stock" "production" bikes, i head to the club races. But to each his own....
In AMA we use to have a "superbike" class, and a 'formula extreme' AND a superstock. I suppose one could make case for what was/is one's interest and it make sense, me personally, i enjoyed all three classes.
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Jumkie
It's not that. You know those old duffers you see clustering around and tossing off over a Manx Norton? I'm like that with 125GP/250GP bikes. SBKs just don't float my boat to the same extent.
I get pit access to the WSBK rounds at Phillip Island and was lucky enough to be there with the Aprilia guys (some of which were ex-GP personnel I'd met before) for the RSV4's first race (still under development, with rapid-proto'd intake ducts and unfinished machining...very cool) Fun, interesting, but not the same for me. I enjoy the racing, though.
The 'fraction of the budget' bit only came about when they ditched the 2 strokes, as I wrote before, the factories were spending more on Superbikes...not even close to what you could get 'at a dealer'. That said, the fact that MotoGP is now the realms of megabucks, doesn't change the fact that SBKs aren't exactly bargains at the pointy end. [No racing is, you spend as much as you dare]
I think the BSB type rules are a good compromise, when you read the organiser's statements explaining the reasons behind the changes, they are transparent about their aims(something Dorna could do with). Further, as an amateur wrencher, those rules are closer to what an average person/racer (circa 1985...)would do to their bike - cams, porting, better forks, blah - to go racing. It's do-able by the enthusiast. And closer to what the punter might ride - a good thing?? Right now, SBKs are a mix of unobtanium exotica and a modded proddy frame.
Again, I think the great advantage of SBK is the mix of winning riders and winning marques. Unless the rules kill this, I don't have much of a beef, though I understand why you might. As for Superstock, they'd be more interesting if they had a better calibre of rider on them.
It's not that. You know those old duffers you see clustering around and tossing off over a Manx Norton? I'm like that with 125GP/250GP bikes. SBKs just don't float my boat to the same extent.
I get pit access to the WSBK rounds at Phillip Island and was lucky enough to be there with the Aprilia guys (some of which were ex-GP personnel I'd met before) for the RSV4's first race (still under development, with rapid-proto'd intake ducts and unfinished machining...very cool) Fun, interesting, but not the same for me. I enjoy the racing, though.
The 'fraction of the budget' bit only came about when they ditched the 2 strokes, as I wrote before, the factories were spending more on Superbikes...not even close to what you could get 'at a dealer'. That said, the fact that MotoGP is now the realms of megabucks, doesn't change the fact that SBKs aren't exactly bargains at the pointy end. [No racing is, you spend as much as you dare]
I think the BSB type rules are a good compromise, when you read the organiser's statements explaining the reasons behind the changes, they are transparent about their aims(something Dorna could do with). Further, as an amateur wrencher, those rules are closer to what an average person/racer (circa 1985...)would do to their bike - cams, porting, better forks, blah - to go racing. It's do-able by the enthusiast. And closer to what the punter might ride - a good thing?? Right now, SBKs are a mix of unobtanium exotica and a modded proddy frame.
Again, I think the great advantage of SBK is the mix of winning riders and winning marques. Unless the rules kill this, I don't have much of a beef, though I understand why you might. As for Superstock, they'd be more interesting if they had a better calibre of rider on them.
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Manx Norton? A bit before my time. Though im familiar only because of the many Isle of Man TT dvds i've watched over the years. Though i'll tell u, the RCW588 (Norton F1) did spark my interest. I've always been fascinated by the Wankel rotary, and feel it never was given the chance it deserved in either a production or more apropos, in prototype trim. I made the case many years ago on this very forum, that the technology was killed by racing politics. But thats a discussion for another time. 
Dr No
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I'm not that old either!
But you can't avoid them at classic races. The duffers, that is.
In the early 90's, a Norton rotary raced in 500GP. The Roton. Supposedly 588cc but who knows how to measure a Rotary? But they let the wierd twin shock bike in. For a bit. No wucking fay they'd allow that now.
But you can't avoid them at classic races. The duffers, that is.
In the early 90's, a Norton rotary raced in 500GP. The Roton. Supposedly 588cc but who knows how to measure a Rotary? But they let the wierd twin shock bike in. For a bit. No wucking fay they'd allow that now.
