Conspiracy GP

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Oct 1 2008, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am aware of this interview, and I guess the implication is that ezy actually doesn't have to conspire where tyres are concerned.

I have been a ducati fan since before casey stoner was born, although casey's involvement has obviously increased my interest. My position which is as a fan may accord with yours, and is that if ducati did have an advantage as now seems likely whether due to tyres or other technology, it was hard and fairly won, and was a quite unlikely achievement in terms of the overall history of the sport . I would not have minded them keeping it a little longer.

Yeah, I was implying Ezy can fiddle with the tires as he sees fit according to him. I've only referred to his behavior as conspiratorial b/c he hasn't been forthright with the fans. I doubt the racers know much of what's going on either.

I believe that Rossi's title this year has the appearance of a fairly won title, but I think fairness is letting the game play out from year to year according to the published rules so the fans and competitors can interpret what's going on. I'm not sure that happened this year. I don't fault Rossi, he certainly didn't ban any technology to reduce cornerspeed. I'm not happy with his tactics to obtain Bridgestones, but his political maneuvering had minimal impact on Casey's tire struggles.

^^^^^Assuming the conspiracy has any merit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 1 2008, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh and, I would be intrigued to know what Babel, our resident 'Tire Expert' thinks of all this...

Happy to be at service
This is actually the best post from lex in long time. Of course he fails to see his own investigation go against his conspiracies. So, if we leave out the whole 2007 tire ........ and the not so mysterious Jerez and Qatar the rest is very good. Carcass has played an increasing role the later years and I agree that that's where Bridgestone has had an advantage.
Of course the failing of the ducati can be explained by their own tweaking of low range power (already reported late '07), and Qatar being an unusual smooth surface with good grip level masking those problems. An older surface with less grip, more bumps and less abusive to tires at Jerez were not at all good for the new Ducati. I can't rule out the 2008 carcass are less rigid as I guess both Bridgestone and the teams want more people than stoner to perform on them, but at the same time Stoner are still capable of some amazing lap times on those tires so there are no doubt they work just as good for him on most tracks. Carcass has also been a key focus for Rossi and what Michelin tried to do for him.
Especially I like the theory of why Stoner is the only one fast on Ducati/Bridgestone in '07. It's been just as true this year so the changes in tires are more likely an improvement than a step back to 990 tires.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Oct 1 2008, 07:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lex, your politics suck - actually that's not quite true. You ideals about free markets and business suck, even though I understand where they are coming from.
Your thoughts about tyres though are really interesting. Have you ever thought that the whole idea of motoGP is now run by a bunch of criminals, like the same ones on Wall St.? They don't care about anything but profit. They have no real interest in the fans. They are only concerned about revenue.
The grand prix circuit, in my mind, is now just a revenue stream albeit one which is dressed up in hype and glamour. It's a manufactured "product", dressed up in a glamourous package, spoon fed to the paying masses, with a few superstars to give it credibility.
The rules keep getting changed to protect the "product", whilst the fans get the short change. There is no level playing field - a single tyre manufacturer makes the playing field less equal, not more equal. Whilst the "product" needs to be protected, then some will be more equal than others.
Look what subscribing to motoGP costs me - something like 70-80 euros this year as I want to watch it live without subscribing to pay television in Aus.
EZY is another Ecclestone clone. A leach on a sport he doesn't care about, has never cared about, and a thief to boot. .... him!

Of course, I've thought that. TODAY'S CORPORATE ENVIRONMENT IS RUN BY THE EQUITY HOLDERS B/C CONSUMERS REFUSE TO EXERCISE THE POWER OF THE INVISIBLE HAND. THE MORALITY OF BUSINESS IS NOW LOW COST OR INDEFINITELY INCREASING UTILITY/BENEFIT. IN SOME INDUSTRIES IT'S BOTH.

Brigepoint bought the rights to DORNA in 2006 after CVC had to divest. Ezy is getting eaten alive by the new stakeholders now that viewership is in steep decline. Returning their investment to its original value is 90% of Ezy's job. Installing Rossi on the top step is the historically-proven path to growth.

Not saying Rossi didn't win it on merit, but it is insane to suggest the governing body is impartially administering the rules now that a small market rider is the defending champion. If 200million Australians watched MotoGP, there wouldn't be a single change to the rules this year! If 200million Americans watched MotoGP, Hayden would be the greatest rider of all time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 2 2008, 01:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not saying Rossi didn't win it on merit, but it is insane to suggest the governing body is impartially administering the rules now that a small market rider is the defending champion. If 200million Australians watched MotoGP, there wouldn't be a single change to the rules this year! If 200million Americans watched MotoGP, Hayden would be the greatest rider of all time.
LOL......we have found something to agree on.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Oct 1 2008, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Supposedly the new control tire was imposed for "safety & cost". What ....... ........! Yet you have people believe it (I guess because they will NEVER admit that the governing body is hell bend on lobbying for the darlings and well connected of the sport).

How would a control tire enable Dorna to manipulate the sport. It would make it a hell of a lot more difficult to supply any one with any special tires. That's suposed to bring equality not differency into the sport so how is this in any way "lobbying for their darlings"?
You are ver hung up witht he Safety thing and your're probably right, that this isn't about safety but what's the big deal. Just becuase they put som pretty words in the press release it's suddenly a big conspiracy? c'mon. Don't pretend to be lex. He'll ride around you in circles when it comes to conspiracies.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 1 2008, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How would a control tire enable Dorna to manipulate the sport.

Are you really that short sighted. I could probably name 10 ways this would make it easier to control the sport. I'll name one way which has already been touched upon in this thread. The control tire can be made to suit Rossi more than anyone, that would be a start. And who is to say that Rossi doesn't get better tires even though there is a control tire. I can just see it now Rossi gets the blue marked tires, Pedrosa gets the red marked and the rest get the plain tires

How do you explain why Ducati wants to go to Michelin all of the sudden. Now that Rossi and Peders are on the stones they are third in line which is not a good place to be if they want to win the championship. You think that they actually wanted to make this move and take one for the team (MOTOGP)?

Lex, are you the type that sits at home with the doors locked and the shutters pulled?

I may hate myself for doing this...

To satisfy all the Rossi boppers out there. IF there is a control tire and everyone gets the same stuff and they arn't made specifically for Rossi and the M1 or anyone else on the field. If all the riders are on equal ground, <u>then Rossi would win.</u> He may have a harder time and the racing would be better but this is taking away any advantage that other teams and riders may have.

Don't agree. Edwards said Rossi uses very hard tires (carryover from his 125 & 250 days) that Edwards couldn't use and neither would anyone want to. If they make them for Rossi (absurd because Rossi wouldn't agree to it) then a bigger probem arises. The tires will have to be built to some standard. Getting that standard agreed to and assuring that all teams get treated fairly is what will have to be established this winter if this ....... nightmare continues. Otherwise Suppo may look for allies and the grid lineup involving at least 10 machines could be in jeopardy if they aren't happy (Suzuki, Kawi and Ducati) and this isn't even mentioning Honda. These guys aren't going to accept second class status for anyone. It's ludicrous. What a can of worms this is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 1 2008, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't agree. Edwards said Rossi uses very hard tires (carryover from his 125 & 250 days) that Edwards couldn't use and neither would anyone want to. If they make them for Rossi (absurd because Rossi wouldn't agree to it) then a bigger probem arises. The tires will have to be built to some standard. Getting that standard agreed to and assuring that all teams get treated fairly is what will have to be established this winter if this ....... nightmare continues. Otherwise Suppo may look for allies and the grid lineup involving at least 10 machines could be in jeopardy if they aren't happy (Suzuki, Kawi and Ducati) and this isn't even mentioning Honda. These guys aren't going to accept second class status for anyone. It's ludicrous. What a can of worms this is.


dude.. for real... its like in SBK...All same tire make...rider and team team choose compound weather it be hard, med, or soft...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Oct 1 2008, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dude.. for real... its like in SBK...All same tire make...rider and team team choose compound weather it be hard, med, or soft...

That is how it is done in WSBK, but it has yet to be decided in MotoGP how the rules will be written for a single tire manuf. or control tire.

Does anyone know if Pirelli make a special tire for each track in the WSBK? It is known they offer a hard/med/soft, but is that hard/med/soft combo differ between tracks?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Oct 1 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you really that short sighted. I could probably name 10 ways this would make it easier to control the sport. I'll name one way which has already been touched upon in this thread. The control tire can be made to suit Rossi more than anyone, that would be a start. And who is to say that Rossi doesn't get better tires even though there is a control tire. I can just see it now Rossi gets the blue marked tires, Pedrosa gets the red marked and the rest get the plain tires

How do you explain why Ducati wants to go to Michelin all of the sudden. Now that Rossi and Peders are on the stones they are third in line which is not a good place to be if they want to win the championship. You think that they actually wanted to make this move and take one for the team (MOTOGP)?

Lex, are you the type that sits at home with the doors locked and the shutters pulled?

1. A tire with very ridgid caracass is what all the fastest riders need with a small correction for the midget. I agree with Lex that Bridgestone has done something right here and as documented Rossi and Stoner ride the same tires more often than not. To whoos advantage that would be is debatable. It's NOT like some here like to think, good bikes and good tires will mate just fine regardless of brand and model.
2. And for your fantasy about marking, pure utter BS. All tires will have to have the exact same markings. Falsify labels on the rubber and external labels to keep "specials" from each other would involve half the ....... paddock. It's simply not doable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Oct 1 2008, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dude.. for real... its like in SBK...All same tire make...rider and team team choose compound weather it be hard, med, or soft...

<u>Whether</u> it is hard, medium or soft...ya but listen. You think it is simple & I don't. I wish it would turn out to be simple but it is a complicated situation. Not in the conspiratorial sense but just technically. It will cost the manufacturers a lot of money to adjust to a spec tire and the traction control coming is a different order of magnitude just when we all want less of it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 1 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><u>Whether</u> it is hard, medium or soft...ya but listen. You think it is simple & I don't. I wish it would turn out to be simple but it is a complicated situation. Not in the conspiratorial sense but just technically. It will cost the manufacturers a lot of money to adjust to a spec tire and the traction control coming is a different order of magnitude just when we all want less of it.

No you and others are making mountains out of mole hills.... there is no issue... either ALL the tires work...or ALL the tires don't.....No more advantages....no more excuses.....It will be down to RIDER and BIKE now...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 1 2008, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><u>Whether</u> it is hard, medium or soft...ya but listen. You think it is simple & I don't. I wish it would turn out to be simple but it is a complicated situation. Not in the conspiratorial sense but just technically. It will cost the manufacturers a lot of money to adjust to a spec tire and the traction control coming is a different order of magnitude just when we all want less of it.

Hmmmm............I seem to remember a lot of teams having trouble adapting to their own tires this season.

Two of those teams have run Bridgestones for many years now. One of them won the championship last year.

Interesting indeed that a control tire would also have many technical complications. What does it all mean?

You're right though, a control tire that makes all members of the MSMA happy would be very difficult to construct.

All Pirelli tires are mould cast, not hand made. Unused tires from race weekends are reused for the next races (even if heated).

Would the rule only apply to MotoGP class or 250s/150s as well.

Just like WSBK where in race one you win and race two your tire is .... and you're tenth or wipe-out. Same bike same rider same day. Spec tires. I can hardly wait.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 1 2008, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmmm............I seem to remember a lot of teams having trouble adapting to their own tires this season.

Two of those teams have run Bridgestones for many years now. One of them won the championship last year.

Interesting indeed that a control tire would also have many technical complications. What does it all mean?

You're right though, a control tire that makes all members of the MSMA happy would be very difficult to construct.

Ducati raised the GP bike on Bridgestones and it was more like the tires were designed to meet the needs of the bike. Those same tires worked like crap on the Suzuki because they had different problems. Yamaha had to redesign the swingarm to adapt to Bridgestones. I expect inconsistent quality with spec tires and why wouldn't there be? They are going to make a production tire for the series now not a hand crafted one-off that is suited to the individual machine because they need twice as many of them or maybe more. The lack of ability to cope with the fluxuation in quality will be dealt with by programming which means TC overload.

I was looking for the quote where Dani was complaining his tires were like riding on ice at one race so he couldn't push the bike at all...but I can't find it. More of that coming soon to a motogp track near you.

Right on Burgess!!! He should be our mentor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Oct 1 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati raised the GP bike on Bridgestones and it was more like the tires were designed to meet the needs of the bike. Those same tires worked like crap on the Suzuki because they had different problems. Yamaha had to redesign the swingarm to adapt to Bridgestones. I expect inconsistent quality with spec tires and why wouldn't there be? They are going to make a production tire for the series now not a hand crafted one-off that is suited to the individual machine because they need twice as many of them or maybe more. The lack of ability to cope with the fluxuation in quality will be dealt with by programming which means TC overload.

I was looking for the quote where Dani was complaining his tires were like riding on ice at one race so he couldn't push the bike at all...but I can't find it. More of that coming soon to a motogp track near you.

Right on Burgess!!! He should be our mentor.

I don't get this. Automated production certainly will create much more consistent tires, but you claim the oposite?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Oct 1 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't get this. Automated production certainly will create much more consistent tires, but you claim the oposite?

I think he's claiming less consistent results b/c you can't have one-offs made for every track to suit your bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Oct 1 2008, 10:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he's claiming less consistent results b/c you can't have one-offs made for every track to suit your bike.

Ah, but that's Michelins aproach not Bridgestones?
I suspect that their specialized tires were the main reason for their down fall. Instead of consentrating on developing a better base tire the tried to patch up what they had by special design for each track.