Can I make this simple conclusion?

Hayden Fan · Mar 16, 2009

World Superbike is the top racing series in the world?

Closest competition.
Big names.
Manufacturer support from 7 different companies.
Ben Spies.
Races in every market in the world. Even MotoGP has not returned to Africa.
Ben Spies.

F1 is a continuing cluster fk.
MotoGP is on he verge of losing it's World Championship tag and called a Cup.
Indy Car is and will always be a continuing cluster fk.
Nascar. Need I say more?
Sports car. Car counts in Europe are high, but in North America are dwindling quicker than Bush's approval ratings were.
Motocross is again a one or two man show. Factory support, but no match to the talent of Reed and Stewart.
Supermoto needs a big name motorcross or road racer to make a full time move to get even a bit or notice. Great racing, but little support really hurts the sport.
Rally car has Loeb and Travis Pastrana right now. WRC has only two manufacturers competing, and Ford is no match for Loeb and his Citroen. S2000 needs to come quick for rally to start to come around again.
Karting is losing support world wide. Costs are rising, and many young talents are skipping karts or are running only a year or two before moving to cars.

But World Superbike and it's supporting series are growing and thriving. Great, close racing. Hell, outside AMA, I would say Superbike racing as a whole is growing and leaving all other motorsport in it's dust.

Wander · Mar 17, 2009

Some of your points are valid, but I still rate both F1 and MotoGP above WSBK.

First of all, F1 is still the biggest and most glamorous racing series there is (and with ease).
And what the hell? Last year in F1 was very entertaining and this year is looking to be full of surprises already!

And really, F1 can hardly be compared to Superbikes.

MotoGP, for me, doesn't lose it's number 1 status just, cause there aren't that many riders right now. Or cause there hasn't been super-close racing for wins in last couple of years. I do agree that Superbike is close (and closing), but I'd rather see how this MotoGP season gets going before I'd go any further. (Besides, and 125s and 250s are ....... awesome)

So yeah..

mjpartyboy · Mar 17, 2009

Rossi should get in on the SBK action: an AMA champion, a couple of BSB champions, a former SBK champion, former MotoGP riders, top level riders throughout pretty much the entire field, it's the place to be, plus I would like to see how Rossi would fare on production based machinery.

Tom · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Mar 17 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>World Superbike is the top racing series in the world?

Closest competition.
Big names.
Manufacturer support from 7 different companies.
Ben Spies.
Races in every market in the world. Even MotoGP has not returned to Africa.
Ben Spies.

F1 is a continuing cluster fk.
MotoGP is on he verge of losing it's World Championship tag and called a Cup.

You can make that conclusion if you chose, but to me F1 is clearly the top racing series in the world. Superbikes is doing extremely well for itself, but it doesn't have the glamour, popularity, status or competitor level as the pinacles of both 2 and 4 wheel motorsport. Also Ben Spies is not a reason why superbikes is a good series, a lot of series have themselfes superstars new and old.

michaelm · Mar 17, 2009

Spies to me is the only current wsbk rider actually or even potentially as good as at least the top 5 current motogp riders, and whilst this continues which may not be long motogp is still ahead imo. WSBK does not have a continuous record of improvement either and was under heavy criticism not many years ago, and whilst the flammini family seem to have things very right at the moment spies may demonstrate fairly shortly that close racing for the lead is not an intrinsic virtue of the formula.

F1 is inarguably still hugely the biggest motorsport in numbers of followers and financial terms, but (sorry tom) none of the current drivers attract my interest like the heroes of my youth, which may be my problem rather than that of F1.

xx CURVE xx · Mar 17, 2009

F1 sucks .... and those who like F1 are .... suckers

MotoGP is DIEING, SBK is growing...I love Moto GP though, always have... but atm there is very little real competition, factories are pulling out, and honestly no real benefit to retail bikes...THATS whats killing it...

michaelm · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>F1 sucks .... and those who like F1 are .... suckers

I am actually forced to agree with you in principle ; it has not always been my view, but yes, virtually all bike racing is probably better than any car racing.

Tom · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 17 2009, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>F1 is inarguably still hugely the biggest motorsport in numbers of followers and financial terms, but (sorry tom) none of the current drivers attract my interest like the heroes of my youth, which may be my problem rather than that of F1.

Don't be sorry, the characters in F1 are definitely strangled to some extent by the corporate influence, something that was not so in the past. I'm ok with it but i wasn't alive in the 60's or whichever era you may be familiar with. Despite being less popular/commercial bike racing is going in the same direction though, thats just the way it is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and honestly no real benefit to retail bikes...THATS whats killing it...

How can you say that when the brilliance of the retail bike that Spies is riding in your beloved superbike championship is a result of motogp research.

michaelm · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 17 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't be sorry, the characters in F1 are definitely strangled to some extent by the corporate influence, something that was not so in the past. I'm ok with it but i wasn't alive in the 60's or whichever era you may be familiar with. Despite being less popular/commercial bike racing is going in the same direction though, thats just the way it is.

How can you say that when the brilliance of the retail bike that Spies is riding in your beloved superbike championship is a result of motogp research.
I'm old but not that old; mid to late 70s and 80s rather than 60s, although I did see jackie stewart race as a young schoolboy (me not him

) .

I agree about the wsbk technology; basically they are getting motogp technology fairly soon after motogp (if not before in the case of the yamaha electronic suspension which may partially defeat my argument), but the expense of development of said technology seems to be ascribed entirely to motogp budgets.

xx CURVE xx · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 17 2009, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How can you say that when the brilliance of the retail bike that Spies is riding in your beloved superbike championship is a result of motogp research.

the BIG BANG set up was derived from the 990 not the 800 dumb dumb

BigAl · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the BIG BANG set up was derived from the 990 not the 800 dumb dumb

was the odd firing order not derived from the NSR? isnt that where they first used it?

xx CURVE xx · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 17 2009, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>was the odd firing order not derived from the NSR? isnt that where they first used it?

Maybe..but the old Yamaha 500 did also me thinks...

Point being is there is NO real benefit to retail bikes from Moto GP anymore.... there was a time we could get our hands on strokers for the street, no more...then they went to 4 stroke with the ALL MIGHTY 990 that closely resembled the litre bikes out from ALL manufacturers...the 800's are more like souped up 600s in my opinion...

Win on Sunday sell on Monday.... Moto GP has lost it's way.

Hayden Fan · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>F1 sucks .... and those who like F1 are .... suckers

MotoGP is DIEING, SBK is growing...I love Moto GP though, always have... but atm there is very little real competition, factories are pulling out, and honestly no real benefit to retail bikes...THATS whats killing it...

What is think is killing MotoGP is that Dorna and the people who are running MotoGP are trying to make it a series that would benefit retail bikes, and that is not the purpose of the Grand Prix classes. They might have at one time, but they are all prototypes. To use the analogy, "F1 with two wheels". The place where the technology is. and just like F1, the costs have gone up so high that people cannot afford to compete at a top level and are pulling out.

F1 is a series I was grown up around, and from what I remember as a little kid, and up until now, F1 has steadily gone down. Popularity is growing to new places like the Middle East, Asia, but the support in it's base, Europe, is dropping quickly.

xx CURVE xx · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Mar 17 2009, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is think is killing MotoGP is that Dorna and the people who are running MotoGP are trying to make it a series that would benefit retail bikes, and that is not the purpose of the Grand Prix classes. They might have at one time, but they are all prototypes. To use the analogy, "F1 with two wheels". The place where the technology is. and just like F1, the costs have gone up so high that people cannot afford to compete at a top level and are pulling out.

F1 is a series I was grown up around, and from what I remember as a little kid, and up until now, F1 has steadily gone down. Popularity is growing to new places like the Middle East, Asia, but the support in it's base, Europe, is dropping quickly.

No dude... Experimental bikes should be tested on test tracks with test riders...not in a racing series.. the bikes need to represent whats on the street AT least a bit...

parcferme · Mar 17, 2009

The pinnacle of motorcycle racing is not a series where the motorcycles were originally designed with blinkers and lights and reflectors and parts made out of snore-tanium.

A Grand Prix racing motorcycle is not even on the same planet as a superbike.

Close racing can't be created from a formula.

Tremulant · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>F1 sucks .... and those who like F1 are .... suckers

+1000. I like you more and more every day Curve.

Geonerd · Mar 17, 2009

The 'glamor' angle to Eff Wun baffles me. I'm not much of a 'joiner' and have never held movie stars, sports figures, etc., in any sort of special esteem. I really don't give a flip if some Rapper ....., or movie-star-whore-of-the-day is in pit lane or not.

I guess glamor is the only card left to play after years of ugly politics have corrupted what little racing there was. Why the teams allow two power-mad control freaks to run the show is beyond me. The blatant favoritism and corrupt rule interpretations are revolting. As supposed sporting competition, F1 is dead. I guess there's enough money in it to make sucking Bernie and spanking Max worth the complete loss of integrity and self respect.

Sadly I see MotoGP beginning to sliding in the same general direction. The current $ crunch may actually help in the long run by re-focusing everyone's efforts on the basics of running a team and going racing.

<u>2009 Care-O-Meter:</u>

Eff Wun: 1/10
Years back, I'd get up at 4AM to watch. Now, unless there's been an unusually good race, I don't even bother to DL the vids anymore.

MotoGP: 6/10
'We'll see' if the tire rule improves the racing. One good race per year ain't making it.

WSB: 8+/10
So far, so good. The races have been solid, if not entirely spectacular.
The only series I plan to see live.

-Moo

povol · Mar 17, 2009

I personally like F1. To me, Prototype racing [F1 - Moto GP] is not all about close competition.Its about the braniacs that can out think, out manuever, out design the other guy. For the most part,prototype racing has never been the closest racing,just the most advanced.There is 2 things killing prototype racing. One is todays culture that everybody should have a shot to win.Everybody does have a shot to win but it should take more than just entering the game and showing up,then waiting for the powers to legislate the faster teams down to your level.Thats when prototype racing starts losing its appeal and heads towards spec racing. Second, if you have a true prototype series,it cannot sustain itself economically and is doomed from the get go because one guy always has more money.In reality,there is no prototype racing but what we call prototype racing,i enjoy for the technology alone,could care less about bang bang finishes. I can get that in other series.

Tom · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the BIG BANG set up was derived from the 990 not the 800 dumb dumb

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 17 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe..but the old Yamaha 500 did also me thinks...

Point being is there is NO real benefit to retail bikes from Moto GP anymore.... there was a time we could get our hands on strokers for the street, no more...then they went to 4 stroke with the ALL MIGHTY 990 that closely resembled the litre bikes out from ALL manufacturers...the 800's are more like souped up 600s in my opinion...

Win on Sunday sell on Monday.... Moto GP has lost it's way.

Firstly, where any of the GP replica 2 stroke bikes even big bang? I don't think they were, but i'm not sure. Secondly, motogp has been 4 stroke for just 7 years, if you could give a few examples from the last 7 years of the two trokes of significant GP derrived technology that was used in production machines i'd love to hear about it and i'd doubt it'll be more than what has trickled down since. thirdly, it would be foolish to credit the big bang NSR as being the technology used in the the current GP bikes or cross plane R1, if it was actually the case the original R1 could easily have had it.

xx CURVE xx · Mar 17, 2009

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 17 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly, where any of the GP replica 2 stroke bikes even big bang? I don't think they were, but i'm not sure. Secondly, motogp has been 4 stroke for just 7 years, if you could give a few examples from the last 7 years of the two trokes of significant GP derrived technology that was used in production machines i'd love to hear about it and i'd doubt it'll be more than what has trickled down since. thirdly, it would be foolish to credit the big bang NSR as being the technology used in the the current GP bikes or cross plane R1, if it was actually the case the original R1 could easily have had it.

thank you for prooving you're a tool that knows nothing bout bikes Tommy

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Can I make this simple conclusion?

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