BMW say no to MotoGP

povol said:

The racing would fine, its just not what race fans want out of the premier motorcycle series in the world. I dont know when some are going to wake up and understand the race fans wants and needs. Mind boggling performance and technology is what we pay to see in prototype racing, not close racing. If its close, great, if its not, thats ok as well. Who here would drop 1000 bucks on a weekend to travel and watch bikes with less HP than whats sitting in my garage. Very few people go to WSBK and GP races to watch WSS and Moto2 . They are there to see the big boys roar, the support classes are just a bonus. If the big bore bikes were not there, you would watch on tv.

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Pov, this seems to be antithetical to what you like about NASCAR? No? I can see the logic in your post and even agree to an extent but frankly, I don't see why the two must be mutually exclusive. We're talking about MotoGP, the worlds premier series. I think we can have both provided the organizers and manufacturers have the courage to correct the present situation. While I agree that Moto2 is not the draw, I'm drawn to it because of the racing spectacle despite the fact that my garage bike makes similar power. Moto2 is extremely entertaining! They've dumbed down the tech/power and have achieved a series that is better than I think even they imagined when the switch from 250 smokers was announced.



Your point is well articulated and I agree with your assertion that the stands will fill even if Casey wins by 30 seconds week in and out. Certainly the machines present a reasonable draw by themselves, but I think the "fix" is far less elusive and costly than they'd have us believe. There are good riders languishing because of the current formula and ground is being lost to SBK in terms of performance and allure.



As for BMW, they're getting it handed to them in SBK despite the fact that their machine has been well received by the public and the cycle media. They need to craft a podium worthy SBK machine prior to launching an expensive and equally unsuccessful MotoGP bid. I don't believe it's in their DNA to allow themselves to be beaten twice a weekend by manufacturers they must feel are inferior...



They need to come good in SBK first. Incidentally, I think BMW will continue to struggle in SBK against Aprilia and I'm certain the next Ducati will prove formidable when it arrives next year. BMW will have their hands full for some time I believe. Allowing their power plant to race MotoGP in another chassis will allow for some development without their branding while they continue to work on their SBK package.

Austin said:

Kropotkin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this isn't new. I was talking to Levi about this during Le Mans, so this story has been making the rounds for at least a week, if not longer.

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More than that, two or three weeks, IIRC. It's content recycling.

Kropotkin said:

More than that, two or three weeks, IIRC. It's content recycling.

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Much obliged, sir.

levigarrett said:

Pov, this seems to be antithetical to what you like about NASCAR? No? I can see the logic in your post and even agree to an extent but frankly, I don't see why the two must be mutually exclusive. We're talking about MotoGP, the worlds premier series. I think we can have both provided the organizers and manufacturers have the courage to correct the present situation. While I agree that Moto2 is not the draw, I'm drawn to it because of the racing spectacle despite the fact that my garage bike makes similar power. Moto2 is extremely entertaining! They've dumbed down the tech/power and have achieved a series that is better than I think even they imagined when the switch from 250 smokers was announced.



Your point is well articulated and I agree with your assertion that the stands will fill even if Casey wins by 30 seconds week in and out. Certainly the machines present a reasonable draw by themselves, but I think the "fix" is far less elusive and costly than they'd have us believe. There are good riders languishing because of the current formula and ground is being lost to SBK in terms of performance and allure.



As for BMW, they're getting it handed to them in SBK despite the fact that their machine has been well received by the public and the cycle media. They need to craft a podium worthy SBK machine prior to launching an expensive and equally unsuccessful MotoGP bid. I don't believe it's in their DNA to allow themselves to be beaten twice a weekend by manufacturers they must feel are inferior...



They need to come good in SBK first. Incidentally, I think BMW will continue to struggle in SBK against Aprilia and I'm certain the next Ducati will prove formidable when it arrives next year. BMW will have their hands full for some time I believe. Allowing their power plant to race MotoGP in another chassis will allow for some development without their branding while they continue to work on their SBK package.

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Not really, if you watch a lot of Nascar, it becomes very obvious, very fast, that just about every week, there is a car capable of making shambles of the race.By its nature, and a little help from Nascar , there are enough caution causing incidents that allow adjustments in a 4- 500 mile race.If Nasacar was a 65 mile sprint and there were no cautions, you would see larger margins of victory in Nascar than Moto Gp. I just love motorsports, cant help it. This Sunday, i have warned my family not to .... with me unless they are bringing cheeseburgers. Sunday morning- F1 Monte Carlo

Sunday noon- Indy 500- Sunday afternoon- WSBK Miller, Sunday evening till midnight Charlotte 600.By far the best racing day of the year

Should the goal even be to get more manufacturers into MotoGP? Isn't it the manufacturers that are screwing it up?



Smarter minds then mine have in the past suggested that teams at the top of the sport should be companies who's sole purpose is to race. Not manufacturers who race as part of their R&D and PR. This is largely the case in F1 with Williams, Maclaren, Red Bull etc.



Personally I think BMW and other manufacturers supplying engines should be the limit of their involvement with the chassis developed by racing companies who can either go racing or supply race teams. This is where I believe Dorna are trying to go and the sport will be all the better for it in the long run.

Kropotkin said:

I would just like to point out that what Burgess would like to see is 600cc pure prototype MotoGP bikes. Make of that what you will. I make of it some of the most dire racing imaginable.

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Maybe not...



Assuming the formula is truly 'free,' (600cc, round pistons, maybe a minimal weight, no forced induction, what else?) you might wind up with someone running a 600cc 6 cylinder engine spinning at 25K+ That would sound pretty sweet, I'd bet.



One of the appeals of vintage F1 is the wide variety of engine configurations people ran before the DFV and, later, regulations took over. In 1967 you had several V12s (including the Honda which made the most glorious ear-splitting shriek), the Cosworth V8, Repco V8, BRM H16, and a number of underpowered 4 and 6 cylinder lumps trundling around at the back of the pack. The races sounded absolutely glorious! Now, of course, we have blueprint V8s which all sound more or less the same. Thanks .........

Mental Anarchist said:

Should the goal even be to get more manufacturers into MotoGP? Isn't it the manufacturers that are screwing it up?



Smarter minds then mine have in the past suggested that teams at the top of the sport should be companies who's sole purpose is to race. Not manufacturers who race as part of their R&D and PR. This is largely the case in F1 with Williams, Maclaren, Red Bull etc.



Personally I think BMW and other manufacturers supplying engines should be the limit of their involvement with the chassis developed by racing companies who can either go racing or supply race teams. This is where I believe Dorna are trying to go and the sport will be all the better for it in the long run.

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That's an interesting perception and one I could identify with. I'm not sure though if there are not R&D/ PR/ Marketing links between F1 drivetrain providers and the teams using their technology. Then again given that all participants are in the game to for gainful purposes this is understandable - so it comes down to a question of how they can best do it and at the same time provide an interesting and exciting sport spectacle to followers. Comparing F1 evolution with MotGP (and its predecessors) does show that the 4-wheelers moved to 3rd party chassis innovation much earlier and the likes of Williams, Benetton, Brabham et al have in their time enjoyed much more success than the like of eg Team Roberts. Engine development for the likes of BMW in a Suter CRT bike could be an inviting additional avenue with less brand exposure than the current "almost winning" status in WSBK. With Ducati or Suzi engines back in Bi-Mota chassis - Moriwake Hondas, Seeley Kwaks or whoever their 21st Century counterparts will be - who dares to think where the satellite teams would end up if the CRT bikes are given enough technical leeway over the factory leased also-rans. So maybe with enough imagination and a set of creative rather than restrictive rules CRT participation would not have to follow the JB "2nd class racing for 15th place" prognosis. Will the Japanese and current sole Italian/ European manufacturer play fair with engines. Will they accept that a move away from wins on Sunday - sells on Monday - needs the whole bike to come from them - remains to be seen. ImO anything that gets 25+ competitive bikes ion the grid is a step in the right direction.

Geonerd said:

Maybe not...



Assuming the formula is truly 'free,' (600cc, round pistons, maybe a minimal weight, no forced induction, what else?) you might wind up with someone running a 600cc 6 cylinder engine spinning at 25K+ That would sound pretty sweet, I'd bet.



One of the appeals of vintage F1 is the wide variety of engine configurations people ran before the DFV and, later, regulations took over. In 1967 you had several V12s (including the Honda which made the most glorious ear-splitting shriek), the Cosworth V8, Repco V8, BRM H16, and a number of underpowered 4 and 6 cylinder lumps trundling around at the back of the pack. The races sounded absolutely glorious! Now, of course, we have blueprint V8s which all sound more or less the same. Thanks .........

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Never fear, 2013 will bring a 1.6 litre turbo in line 4



The 2.4-liter naturally aspirated V8’s used in Formula One will be retired at the end of next year, to be replaced with 1.6-liter turbo inline fours. WTF is naturally the first thing that comes to mind, and it’s true that we know little about the character of 1.6-liter turbo inline fours. But if 1.5-liter turbo inline fours are any clue, they will be okay. The BMW’s M10 engine from the ’80s. With four cylinders, 1.5 liters of displacement, and a KKK turbocharger the size of an asteroid, it was good for 1,500 hp in qualifying trim. http://jalopnik.com/5800850/dont-fear-the-2013-f1-engines

ptk50 said:

That's an interesting perception and one I could identify with. I'm not sure though if there are not R&D/ PR/ Marketing links between F1 drivetrain providers and the teams using their technology. Then again given that all participants are in the game to for gainful purposes this is understandable - so it comes down to a question of how they can best do it and at the same time provide an interesting and exciting sport spectacle to followers. Comparing F1 evolution with MotGP (and its predecessors) does show that the 4-wheelers moved to 3rd party chassis innovation much earlier and the likes of Williams, Benetton, Brabham et al have in their time enjoyed much more success than the like of eg Team Roberts. Engine development for the likes of BMW in a Suter CRT bike could be an inviting additional avenue with less brand exposure than the current "almost winning" status in WSBK. With Ducati or Suzi engines back in Bi-Mota chassis - Moriwake Hondas, Seeley Kwaks or whoever their 21st Century counterparts will be - who dares to think where the satellite teams would end up if the CRT bikes are given enough technical leeway over the factory leased also-rans. So maybe with enough imagination and a set of creative rather than restrictive rules CRT participation would not have to follow the JB "2nd class racing for 15th place" prognosis. Will the Japanese and current sole Italian/ European manufacturer play fair with engines. Will they accept that a move away from wins on Sunday - sells on Monday - needs the whole bike to come from them - remains to be seen. ImO anything that gets 25+ competitive bikes ion the grid is a step in the right direction.

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Maybe they could have championships within championships, like BSB did with the EVO class. Have a Gp champion, and a CRT champion.

ptk50 said:

My, my all that's missing is the pontifical "we"

You are just so totally incapable of listening or learning. And are most certainly one of the last things I would sink my teeth into it.

It must be lonely for you to know everything and constantly get it wrong

I will take back the "Archie Bunker" label I gave you a few posts back - he had a humorous side - your illusions of omnipotence are just so predictable that they are becoming pathetic

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I relish being wrong b/c it gives me an opportunity to learn something new. You've not even been decent enough to provide me with a scrap of valuable information during your ad hominem henpecking. When you realize that you are not knowledgeable enough to change my mind regarding the subjects on which we disagree, you will find a better use of your time than pestering me.



I'm am at liberty to have whatever delusions I please and pontificate as much as I like b/c our dialogue left the realm of reasonable debate from the moment you joined. I let you pick the weapon and the location. Don't whine when I offend the few sensibilities you have.

mylexicon said:

I relish being wrong b/c it gives me an opportunity to learn something new. You've not even been decent enough to provide me with a scrap of valuable information during your ad hominem henpecking. When you realize that you are not knowledgeable enough to change my mind regarding the subjects on which we disagree, you will find a better use of your time than pestering me.



I'm am at liberty to have whatever delusions I please and pontificate as much as I like b/c our dialogue left the realm of reasonable debate from the moment you joined. I let you pick the weapon and the location. Don't whine when I offend the few sensibilities you have.

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Oh - now I understand - You doubt my knowledge and ability to reasonably debate whatever you delusionally pontificate - Hmmm reading your dialogue with other forum members it seems I am one of a growing constituency. Anyway - bottom line is - I'm getting bored with tweeking you - So - here's the offer - from now on I will try my best not to reply to any of your posts - It will be easier to do this if you could express your opinions as such and not blindly portray them as objectively proven and accepted facts. You may continue to be delusional - that is your good right - but please temper that old pontificatin' - that way I may be able to ignore you

Mental Anarchist said:

Should the goal even be to get more manufacturers into MotoGP? Isn't it the manufacturers that are screwing it up?



Smarter minds then mine have in the past suggested that teams at the top of the sport should be companies who's sole purpose is to race. Not manufacturers who race as part of their R&D and PR. This is largely the case in F1 with Williams, Maclaren, Red Bull etc.



Personally I think BMW and other manufacturers supplying engines should be the limit of their involvement with the chassis developed by racing companies who can either go racing or supply race teams. This is where I believe Dorna are trying to go and the sport will be all the better for it in the long run.

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I prefer racing-only manufacturers, but it is admittedly almost impossible to regulate the teams. Racing competition has given many of the great manufacturers their identity and their technological base for building production vehicles, but racing competition has also been responsible for wrecking many once-great companies. Thinning of the herd is merely part of the game, but life is supposed to start anew. No signs of new life in MotoGP. Instead, when competitors die, formal/informal barriers to entry are erected to protect the manufacturers who risked a great deal to beat them. Oligopoly results, frivolous spending becomes the rule. Electric vehicles are starting to break oligopoly powers by eliminating barriers to entry for prototype racing, but I don't think that upstart manufacturers should have to wait on politically-correct disruptive technologies.



The big problem with production manufacturers is that they cannot stay in a sport and lose. The racing bureaucrats who rely on corporate money know that losing isn't an option so they need to create 1 of 4 scenarios that seem to dominate racing: 1. The exclusive country club where participation makes you look special even if you don't win (MotoGP) 2. A rigged contest where institutional discrimination creates and sustains hopelessly underfunded and outgunned scapegoat-teams (F1) 3. Performance balanced egalitarianism (just about every series on earth from FIA GT series to LMS) 4. One-make or spec (NASCAR, IndyCar)



MotoGP has traditionally used #1, but if you look at Suzuki, it isn't working. Suzuki hurt their brand every day they stay in MotoGP, and the fan criticism of their "half-assed" team only reinforces that losing is not an option even with the country club model. CRT is sort of an attempt to move toward the F1 rigged contest. Performance-balanced egalitarianism and spec aren't really on the radar b/c the teams can't even wrap their brains around a horsepower cap.



The problem with MotoGP is that fickle production manufacturers are the only participants b/c they control the rulebook. If MotoGP had a backbone of competent racing-only or racing-dedicated manufacturers, the show could continue. Furthermore, if racing-only manufacturers were prevalent, the MSMA would be less inclined to withdraw b/c they don't want to surrender GP to upstart manufacturers. The ball is in Dorna's court. We know the manufacturers can't run their own separate series b/c they have control of the rulebook now and they completely screw it up. Now is the time to put the pedal to the metal. Get rid of Honda and Yamaha and leverage the European F1 racing infrastructure to get prototype equipment for small-market European production manufacturers who want to grow (some of these companies are GP legends) and race-only companies like Motocycsz, Ilmor, FB Corse, Team Roberts. Honda and Yamaha will be forced to stay and to adhere to a decent set of technical regulations that don't jeopardize the existence of the sport.

ptk50 said:

Oh - now I understand - You doubt my knowledge and ability to reasonably debate whatever you delusionally pontificate - Hmmm reading your dialogue with other forum members it seems I am one of a growing constituency. Anyway - bottom line is - I'm getting bored with tweeking you - So - here's the offer - from now on I will try my best not to reply to any of your posts - It will be easier to do this if you could express your opinions as such and not blindly portray them as objectively proven and accepted facts. You may continue to be delusional - that is your good right - but please temper that old pontificatin' - that way I may be able to ignore you

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You get to stop making a fool of yourself, and I have to rephrase my tempestuous opinions (or get a lobotomy) to stabilize your fragile psyche?



Declined.



I'll make you an offer. You can reply to me whenever you want in whatever manner you please, but if you disagree with me, you are obliged to make a reasonable rebuttal.

Mental Anarchist said:

Smarter minds then mine have in the past suggested that teams at the top of the sport should be companies who's sole purpose is to race. Not manufacturers who race as part of their R&D and PR. This is largely the case in F1 with Williams, Maclaren, Red Bull etc.

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Be realistic, Red Bull are in F1 for nothing other than marketting and PR, they aren't even in the automotive industry

Tom said:

Be realistic, Red Bull are in F1 for nothing other than marketting and PR, they aren't even in the automotive industry

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I wish they'd come back to MotoGP.

Tom said:

Be realistic, Red Bull are in F1 for nothing other than marketting and PR, they aren't even in the automotive industry

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Ahem and the 2 car companies in FI (Mercedes and Ferrari) are currently starring as "also ran" and "seasonally challenged"

I agree with Austin - it would be good if Didi RedBull would come back to MotoGP - as sponsor for ........... RedBull-BMW CRT or ???????????????????

Austin said:

I wish they'd come back to MotoGP.

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The Red Bull US Grand Prix at Laguna Seca

The Red Bull Indianapolis Grand Prix

Dovizioso, Stoner, Pedrosa (off the top of my head, there's probably more)

Ajo racing in 125s.

Red Bull Rookies Cup.



I think they're already in MotoGP.



BTW, I also heard a rumor that Red Bull turned down the opportunity to run Casey Stoner in a 1-man Honda team in 2010 ...

Kropotkin said:

The Red Bull US Grand Prix at Laguna Seca

The Red Bull Indianapolis Grand Prix

Dovizioso, Stoner, Pedrosa (off the top of my head, there's probably more)

Ajo racing in 125s.

Red Bull Rookies Cup.



I think they're already in MotoGP.



BTW, I also heard a rumor that Red Bull turned down the opportunity to run Casey Stoner in a 1-man Honda team in 2010 ...

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I'm thrilled with their contribution to the sport. The Rookies Cup is a fantastic idea, and the support for Stoner, Pedrosa, Dovi, Aoyama, Marquez, and all the rest is wonderful. I meant more along the lines of running a team in the top flight. The Stoner rumor, was that for the 2011 season? Because I wondered what happened to that rumor. There was also the rumor of the Red Bull Ducati team that would run Michelin rubber rumored for 2009 to prolong the tire war. And the rumor of them pairing with Team KR for 2008 (?).



I'm glad I get the opportunity to ask you this because as some here know I am very, VERY loyal to Red Bull, but I get the impression that they're not interested in coming back into MotoGP unless they get control of a team in the way they run their F1 team. Total control. Is that more or less accurate?

Austin said:

I wish they'd come back to MotoGP.

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Given how outrageously expensive Eff Wun is, their continued absence from MotoGP doesn't say good things about the perceived value of bike racing.

This isn't a nice news.



Then who are those 11 new teams or (16 bikes) who have registered for 2012 ?