Basic Rules Package

Thanks for this thread. This topic does need discussing.


 


Firstly I say go small and agile Really small to 500 cc 4 stroke.


 


Screamers with terrifying RPM's.

Bring back the 990's with no rider aides, no fuel limits, and any tire supplier willing the field enough tires for a team for the season.

 
clarkjw

1761541234978903

Wow, they went ahead with everything! I think it's crazy. Eventually, WSBK will become more advanced if DORNA keeps these electronics bans in place.

Chip Controlled Throttle, ABS, Electronic Suspension, Traction Control, Carbon Fiber, Exotic Ceramics, and eventually Electric Motorcycles are part of the new reality. I'm disappointed, but not surprised.


I really think FIM should focus on more universally applicable and easily monitorable things to improve the spectable:


Control Tires (FIM should have control of anything that directly touches the track surface, including knee sliders if tech evolves enough)

Rider+Bike Weight Minimums, secret ballot second highest bid, voted on by participating teams
<strike>Average and </strike>Top Speed Limits, designated by track safety/layout

Self Selected Team Primary Colors - including painted rims, (ever watch a WSBK race and not know who's who cause thery're all in Red&Black with shark fin designs?). At least 1/3 of Rider+Bike must be 1 color

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That is what I thought a few years ago...


When I said control tire, I mean those from manufaturers approved by the safety commission that are willing to supply at least 10 riders


 


I'd modifiy those suggestions further with...


Rider must be primary control mechanism of  directional changes, acceleration, and braking.


3 Classes (MotoGP,2,3)


Miniumum Age (13)


Minimum rider weight formula (kg/meter). One that would make Pedrosa about 60kg. Would be class specific.


Max of 30  bikes on grid, with 27 for regular riders and 3 open only to those with passports from country of the race.


Minimum post race bike weight by category, voted by teams


TV friendly races projected to 40 minutes. A 2 hour special that recaps the low formulas, championship standings, and news in the 1st hour, then does the live GP  broadcast in 2nd hour


More rider stats and popup data, especially when races become a procession. Lean angle, torque applied, brake force, drag, sector times and top speeds, etc.


Those exceeding the circuit top speed must ceed 1 position for 2 corners or drive through pit lane. Speeds should be voted on by teams and saftey commission.


Materials and emmissions restrictions, for safety only. Voted by teams.


 


I think the category specific speed limits and weight minimums would effectively cut costs and allow for differentiation between classes.  I don't like speed limits, but fuel limits and displacement maximums are worse

Mental Anarchist

3576621375879627

What would happen if Dorna go the arse and some one else took over, thru out the rule book and left it completely open to turn up with a bike with 2 wheels as the only must have?


Firstly what would people turn up with?


But maybe easier to answer is would a point and shoot bike with massive horsepower, acceleration and top speed be the direction taken as opposed to a nimble handler or an all rounder?

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Good question, but I think it would all come down to what tires are available, and what they could handle. I suspect Honda would turn up with a 900cc four stroke (possibly a V6), while the others turned up with 600cc two strokes. Honda would win.

No use of any technology that is not present on production bikes


 


ie carbon brakes, 10 fuel maps, traction control --- will all have to go

whammy

3576691375886372

No use of any technology that is not present on production bikes


 


ie carbon brakes, 10 fuel maps, traction control --- will all have to go

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I had a go on a BMW R1200GS (the new liquid cooled model) a couple of months ago. It had 6 different electronics settings, traction control, electronic suspension, and a bunch of other stuff. Truth is, road bikes are already ahead of race bikes in some areas.


 


Of course, the big question is this: what is motorcycle racing for?

Kropotkin

3576711375887129

I had a go on a BMW R1200GS (the new liquid cooled model) a couple of months ago. It had 6 different electronics settings, traction control, electronic suspension, and a bunch of other stuff. Truth is, road bikes are already ahead of race bikes in some areas.


 


Of course, the big question is this: what is motorcycle racing for?

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Well I would like to think that a prototype racing could be used primarily by the factory to produce a better road bike for all of us.


Perhaps some of the refinements in MotoGP are trickling down as in the BMW R1200GS or even vice versa and trickling up.


But corner by corner throttle management on a track has no practical use on a road bike unless it is being used to gather data for production use on an upcoming technology. Chicken and egg thing. What I am saying is there should be a solid link between the two.

 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1375887129

357671" data-author="Kropotkin

Of course, the big question is this: what is motorcycle racing for?

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To allow man AND machine to be pitted against each other in competion?

I suppose the biggest concern most of us have about removing technical restrictions, is the possibility that technological advances may effectively reduce it to a compettion of machines only. I don't know if this concern is justified. I remember when they banned active supsension in F1 for this very reason. It seemed to make sense, the Williams riders were often putting 2 seconds a lap on the rest of the field. Rider talent, it seemed, had become obsolete. Yet advanced electronics were banned before the other teams even had the chance to catch up with development, so who knows how things would have turned out otherwise. The fact that it was still Prost and Mansell who had the upperhand, rather than Patrese or Hill, does suggest that the driver still could make the difference. And despite all the talk in about rider aids turning motogp into something for the playstation kids ((c)Rossi), those kids still appear to suffer as much, if not more, from crashes these days as their predecessors. So much for whacking the throttle open and letting the computer sort it out.


Still, assuming that technological advances do indeed pose a threath to the essence of the sport, perhaps the rules should be anticipate such things. As it is, racing cars and motorcycles make more power than they can effectively put to use. Perhaps radically rethinking how that power should be generated, and limiting the amount of energy to be used would be a solution.

whammy

3576721375888635

Well I would like to think that a prototype racing could be used primarily by the factory to produce a better road bike for all of us.


Perhaps some of the refinements in MotoGP are trickling down as in the BMW R1200GS or even vice versa and trickling up.


But corner by corner throttle management on a track has no practical use on a road bike unless it is being used to gather data for production use on an upcoming technology. Chicken and egg thing. What I am saying is there should be a solid link between the two.

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I actually believe that corner-by-corner throttle management and traction control is the biggest and most important advance likely to appear on road bikes very soon. GPS mapping and vehicle communication is near ubiquitous, and it makes sense for vehicles to network together to monitor the state of the roads.

Mental Anarchist

3576621375879627

What would happen if Dorna go the arse and some one else took over, thru out the rule book and left it completely open to turn up with a bike with 2 wheels as the only must have?


Firstly what would people turn up with?


But maybe easier to answer is would a point and shoot bike with massive horsepower, acceleration and top speed be the direction taken as opposed to a nimble handler or an all rounder?

Click to expand...

 


People like to fantasize about formula libre, but it would only lead to carnage and death. The fuel would be toxic rocket fuel. The engines would be built of composite metals, including beryllium-based alloys, which are poisonous. Bodywork would drastically reduce drag and top speeds would probably exceed 400km/h on the long straights of Mugello, Catalunya, or Aragon. Active-suspension, active-steering, auto-clutch gearboxes, brake-assist would increase cornerspeed, and remove bike control from the riders.


 


Point-and-shoot or cornerspeed is basically irrelevant. The sharpest machines would probably weigh 120kg and pack 300hp-400hp. They'd be in the stands and on fire by the end of the first event. Anarchy is not the solution to creeping restrictions.


 


The most pragmatic regulatory change would be transitioning from fuel capacity limits to fuel flow limits. Let's say 40kg/h measured every .001 seconds, which should equate to 220-ish hp (check my math). Fuel flow limiting allows free fuel capacity and free engine bore. FFL could also lead to free displacement, free cylinder count, variable intake/exhaust, non-circular pistons, forced-induction, two-stroke, etc. FFL is backwards compatible so virtually every GP engine from the past would be legal, though 2-strokes would need direct-injection. I doubt the sanctioning body would allow such freedom, but FFL would still be quite liberating.

mylexicon

3576751375891095

People like to fantasize about formula libre, but it would only lead to carnage and death. The fuel would be toxic jungle juice. The engines would be built of composite metals, including beryllium-based compounds, which are poisonous. Bodywork would drastically reduce drag and top speeds would probably exceed 400km/h on the long straights of Mugello, Catalunya, or Aragon. Active-suspension, active-steering, auto-clutch gearboxes, brake-assist would increase cornerspeed, and remove bike control from the riders.


 


Point-and-shoot or cornerspeed is basically irrelevant. The sharpest machines would probably weigh 100kg and pack 300hp-400hp. They'd be in the stands and on fire by the end of the first event. Anarchy is not the solution to creeping restrictions.


 


The most pragmatic regulatory change would be transitioning from fuel capacity limits to fuel flow limits. Let's say 40kg/h measured every .001 seconds, which should equate to 220-ish hp (check my math). Fuel flow limiting allows free fuel capacity and free engine bore. FFL could also lead to free displacement, free cylinder count, variable intake/exhaust, non-circular pistons, forced-induction, two-stroke, etc. FFL is backwards compatible so virtually every GP engine from the past would be legal, though 2-strokes would need direct-injection. I doubt the sanctioning body would allow such freedom, but FFL would still be quite liberating.

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I like this fuel flow idea. It is something to think about

whammy

3576761375894182

I like this fuel flow idea. It is something to think about

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FFL definitely has potential. F1 and LMP1 are using ffl next season. The proposal has been around since the 60s, when Duckworth and Chapman proposed FFL for F1, but the ultrasound sensors to make it work were only recently developed.


 


If successful in F1 and LMP1, it could be implemented in MotoGP for 2017, but I doubt the overall regulations would change a great deal. The 1000cc max, 4-cylinder max, and 4-stroke mandate would probably remain. Forced-induction would remain banned, imo, along with non-circular pistons and variable intake/exhaust. The 20L limit would probably also survive, but at 225hp, it would be much less restrictive. Hopefully, the regulatory casualty would be the bore limit, and since fuel flow is capped, displacements down to 750cc would be feasible. Maybe DI could be brought into play.


 


The goal is to bring more manufacturers into MotoGP without alienating the existing teams. FFL improves the sport for new entrants, but it protects the competitive advantage of manufacturers like Honda and Yamaha. The engine restrictions are the sticky wicket, imo. Without them, MotoGP could easily draw between 7-10 manufacturers. With strict engine restrictions, MotoGP might be doomed to remain a small country club.

That's an easy answer

Honda and Yamaha wouldn't show up because their big ....... babies that won't play if the rules arent written and controlled by them.


Suzuki wouldn't show cuz their a bunch of ....... quitters.


Kawasaki would show up with a KX 450 because that's the only thing they build that goes fast.


Ducati would show up with front end problems

New Zealand would have an entry called BJC motorsports that runs of ........ and is slow to the take


Stoner wouldn't show because the lack of rules would confine him.


Krop wouldnt show up because his Marquez Matters website got shut down once everyone realized that riders without favored equipment werent special


Oh and Ryan Villopoto would be world champion because he is truly an alien

JohnnyKnockdown

3576821375902001

That's an easy answer

Honda and Yamaha wouldn't show up because their big ....... babies that won't play if the rules arent written and controlled by them.


Suzuki wouldn't show cuz their a bunch of ....... quitters.


Kawasaki would show up with a KX 450 because that's the only thing they build that goes fast.


Ducati would show up with front end problems

New Zealand would have an entry called BJC motorsports that runs of ........ and is slow to the take


Stoner wouldn't show because the lack of rules would confine him.


Krop wouldnt show up because his Marquez Matters website got shut down once everyone realized that riders without favored equipment werent special


Oh and Ryan Villopoto would be world champion because he is truly an alien

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Hump day and JKD appears just a wee bit grumpy.

Some people were talking about races from 2002 the other day. Just happened to stumble across this guy's YT account yesterday evening.


 


https://www.youtube.com/user/LiveMotoRu/videos

mylexicon

3576871375904730

Some people were talking about races from 2002 the other day. Just happened to stumble across this guy's YT account yesterday evening.


 


https://www.youtube.com/user/LiveMotoRu/videos

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Good find lex.

JohnnyKnockdown

3576821375902001

That's an easy answer

Honda and Yamaha wouldn't show up because their big ....... babies that won't play if the rules arent written and controlled by them.


Suzuki wouldn't show cuz their a bunch of ....... quitters.


Kawasaki would show up with a KX 450 because that's the only thing they build that goes fast.


Ducati would show up with front end problems

New Zealand would have an entry called BJC motorsports that runs of ........ and is slow to the take


Stoner wouldn't show because the lack of rules would confine him.


Krop wouldnt show up because his Marquez Matters website got shut down once everyone realized that riders without favored equipment werent special


Oh and Ryan Villopoto would be world champion because he is truly an alien

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"Runs on ........" that is some funny ..... best post for ages.

whammy

3576691375886372

No use of any technology that is not present on production bikes

 

ie carbon brakes, 10 fuel maps, traction control --- will all have to go

Click to expand...

Slicks?

Allowed?