1000's possible for 2011

Noyes articles always make a good read.

Maybe they can tailor the rules not to interfere with WSBK and get Aprillia or even BMW to join in the near future.I wouldn't mind 1000 cc,that's for sure.

I know I've said this before, but it seems like they are going to have to do something with the displacement in WSBK.

What's the rationale behind racing a 1000cc prototype bike, then rolling the technology into a production road bike, and then racing the technology again in WSBK?

It seems like you only need 1 racing series to derive product identity for a given displacement. MotoGP will be used to drive 1000cc sales (the bikes might all become D16RR exotics).

1000 = MotoGP
800/900/1000 = WSBK (4s/triples/twins)
600/675/750 = WSS (4s/triples/twins)

Nice and straight forward for the consumer. Moto2 and Moto3 don't matter b/c the classes aren't sales motivated; instead, they were designed to help people learn how to build GP bikes. However, I do think they will need to raise the displacement in Moto2. Trade the Honda 600 for a Suzuki 750 with 170-180 horsepower and a service life of 5,000 km. Make Moto3 500cc twins.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 22 2009, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I know I've said this before, but it seems like they are going to have to do something with the displacement in WSBK.

What's the rationale behind racing a 1000cc prototype bike, then rolling the technology into a production road bike, and then racing the technology again in WSBK?

It seems like you only need 1 racing series to derive product identity for a given displacement. MotoGP will be used to drive 1000cc sales (the bikes might all become D16RR exotics).

1000 = MotoGP
800/900/1000 = WSBK (4s/triples/twins)
600/675/750 = WSS (4s/triples/twins)

Nice and straight forward for the consumer. Moto2 and Moto3 don't matter b/c the classes aren't sales motivated; instead, they were designed to help people learn how to build GP bikes. However, I do think they will need to raise the displacement in Moto2. Trade the Honda 600 for a Suzuki 750 with 170-180 horsepower and a service life of 5,000 km. Make Moto3 500cc twins.

I agree with you regarding WSBK and displacement.
As for Moto2/3 I don't. I think they did a mistake in the start going to 600cc. They should have gone for 400/450 for Moto2 and eventually 200-250cc to replace 125, maybe as high as 350 if they restrict it to 1 cyl.
They are not promoting sales now but the 600cc Mptp2 is clearly an attempt to attract sponsors and factories with sales as an argument but the Honda Engine more or less destroy that possibility. With smaller capacity it would be lower cost and they could promote sales of classes almost gone from the streets without taking anything away from WSS.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 22 2009, 04:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with you regarding WSBK and displacement.
As for Moto2/3 I don't. I think they did a mistake in the start going to 600cc. They should have gone for 400/450 for Moto2 and eventually 200-250cc to replace 125, maybe as high as 350 if they restrict it to 1 cyl.
They are not promoting sales now but the 600cc Mptp2 is clearly an attempt to attract sponsors and factories with sales as an argument but the Honda Engine more or less destroy that possibility. With smaller capacity it would be lower cost and they could promote sales of classes almost gone from the streets without taking anything away from WSS.
Agree with you and Lex about this. Although I'm perfectly happy with a 600cc Moto2 formula and would like to see a 450cc Moto3 formula.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Nov 23 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Part 2
http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/mot...even-2011-pt-2/


Part 3

http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/mot...even-2011-pt-3/
Thanks for linking Pov, excellent articles.

Noyes is very good at getting reliable inside information very early and presenting it well.

I finally got around to reading the entire 3 parts.

Good inside info from Dennis, but I still don't know what to make of the situation. I support the rule in principle b/c GP is supposed to support the prototyping industry not just the manufacturers, but surely they can come to some kind of engine leasing agreement. The 1000s have got to be cheaper due to engine service life so it seems like the manufacturers should be capable of putting together a proposal that is significantly cheaper than 700,000 euros. Even if they can't do much better than 500,000 euros, it seems like that is still significantly cheaper than trying to prototype a 1-off production derived engine. I can only assume that the manufacturers are going to be building the production-derived engines (or providing kits to the private teams). After the teams make the purchase, they may make further modifications if they can improve upon the factory design.

The rumor floating around is that Aprilia are going to build somekind of production-derived race engine. Will they will provide engines to private teams?

I think they are planning to raise fuel capacity. Noyes pointed out that the manufacturers are worried about rev wars. A 1000cc engine turning a 18,000-20,000 rpm probably wouldn't even make it half distance. Furthermore, if the governing body are really dedicated to cheap engines, I think they are going to have to increase fuel capacity to reduce the electronic sophistication required to get the bike across the finish line.

I'm expecting a conservative 1L increase, but I'm hoping we go back to 24L

It looks like this series is destined to become what SRP racing is in the US. A few killer prototypes and lots of hot rod production machines on the track at the same time. Motogp may be over. That may be a good thing or bad depending on your point of view. It's obvious that the riders don't like the current arrangement. It won't change the results in the long run though. The top guys will still be the top guys and no one will ever win on a production based bike if the factory machines are on the track. So what is the point? Just to keep the series going at any cost I guess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Nov 24 2009, 04:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It looks like this series is destined to become what SRP racing is in the US. A few killer prototypes and lots of hot rod production machines on the track at the same time. Motogp may be over. That may be a good thing or bad depending on your point of view. It's obvious that the riders don't like the current arrangement. It won't change the results in the long run though. The top guys will still be the top guys and no one will ever win on a production based bike if the factory machines are on the track. So what is the point? Just to keep the series going at any cost I guess.
i agree with the whole post but dont you mean "at less cost"? that is the reasoning behind this all surely?

leave all the cost-discussion aside and just imagine the feeling U have sitting on the tribune and hear them goin by!


800 cc vs. 1000 cc.

youd cut a finger off to hear the 1000s

Well cost in the sense of lessening the quality. That is the potential loss cost-wise to the fan. The factories have new engines to design and frames to hold them and suspension to handle them....big savings there I'd bet. No one is dragging a 2006 990 out of the attic. The whinging about track safety will be an ambient roar with 365km/hr bikes running around. Unfortunately there is no solution that will see the series continue in it's present form. All the main complainers have the 990's to measure the 800's against. The newcomers don't care. I'm kind of hopeful and pessimistic all at the same time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Nov 24 2009, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well cost in the sense of lessening the quality. That is the potential loss cost-wise to the fan. The factories have new engines to design and frames to hold them and suspension to handle them....big savings there I'd bet. No one is dragging a 2006 990 out of the attic. The whinging about track safety will be an ambient roar with 365km/hr bikes running around. Unfortunately there is no solution that will see the series continue in it's present form. All the main complainers have the 990's to measure the 800's against. The newcomers don't care. I'm kind of hopeful and pessimistic all at the same time.

Since when has hp/liter equated with quality construction? Ferry Porsche once said that the perfect race car would fall apart as it crossed the finish line. Amazing how the marketing people have managed to repackage the shoddy reality of prototype racing into a shining beacon of technological progress.

Prototypes have been known throughout the years as being unreliable pieces of junk that have a certain personality or soul that makes them unique amongst other racing vehicles. Grand Prix motorcycle racing has been true to the roots of prototyping for a long time. They didn't quit belching blue smoke until the start of the 21st century so it was pretty clear they didn't occupy themselves with appearance.

MotoGP is fine. The facade is crumbling, but the inner workings of the sport are alive and well.

The only loose end to tie up is Honda. They cannot be allowed to forgo wisdom and common sense so they can chase stupid marketing intangibles like hp/liter. I wager they've cost everyone at least $100M between unnecessary development costs and lost commercial revenue. Somebody should hand them a bill.

Motogp got themselves between a rock and a hard place as they say..

They should realy change it to 1000 or 1200cc. for next year.

now that moto2 is 600cc, they have to change and give more cc to motogp, otherwise maybe moto2 chalenges the popularity of the motogp bikes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Nov 26 2009, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They should realy change it to 1000 or 1200cc. for next year.

now that moto2 is 600cc, they have to change and give more cc to motogp, otherwise maybe moto2 chalenges the popularity of the motogp bikes.
2011 would be the earliest possible because they are under contract to leave the engine spec unchanged until then.

600 and 800 are no problem as it was not a problem with SS 600 vs SBK 750.
Higer spec engines make sure to differentiate more then the cc should count for.
So for what ever reason they should go to 1000 it's not about the difference between MotoGP (Moto1) and Moto2.

A 1000cc prototype with 23-24 liters of fuel would not nned to be a super-sophisticated engine. No use running into complications, even with spring valves and "ordinary" materials it would produce enough power to make technological escalations useless.

This also means many would be able to rent engines and maintain them, as KR was doing with Honda. I do not see much use in having stock-derived units at that point. Many smaller manufacturers could also enter the MotoGP arena developing entire bikes, engine included.

A limitation in the processing power of the ECUs would also be desirable and could reinforce this scenario. Less costs, more competition, more teams and bikes on the grid

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rossiofsky @ Nov 25 2009, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>now that moto2 is 600cc, they have to change and give more cc to motogp, otherwise maybe moto2 chalenges the popularity of the motogp bikes.
Even if Moto2 lapped faster than MotoGP, which I don't think will ever be the case, the draw is still the talent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 26 2009, 09:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2011 would be the earliest possible because they are under contract to leave the engine spec unchanged until then.
The contract doesn't seem to be an issue, they're saying this could easily be possible for 2011 which would come one year before the contract ends. I imagine the only thing from making the change now is ironing out a rules package and giving manufacturers time to get their 1000cc program going again.