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Yamaha concerned by power deficit

Joined Jun 2006
2K Posts | 20+
south wales UK
Yamaha MotoGP boss Davide Brivio has admitted that his team needs to find more power, but is concerned that the 2010 engine use restrictions could hamper its efforts to do so.

Although Yamaha started the 2010 season with a one-two in Qatar for Valentino Rossi and Jorge Lorenzo, the M1 appeared to lack straightline performance compared to its rivals - with Honda in particular seeming to enjoy a power advantage.

With each rider only allowed to use six engines during the 2010 campaign, Brivio is concerned that catching up could be difficult.

"We struggle on the straights," Brivio admitted to Gazzetta dello Sport. "Let's hope we can quickly find some small solution to patch the situation.

"But because of the new rule that forces us to use no more than six engines for the season, finding an immediate solution may be a bit of a problem. We must take into consideration the available units."

Rossi's bike stopped just after the chequered flag on Sunday night, having run out of fuel. Brivio confirmed Rossi's suspicion that this was simply because excessive wheelspin during the race had used more fuel, but said it had not been a drama and Yamaha's in-built automatic fuel management system had not been required.

"If the bike slides, you lose grip and the bike consumes more fuel," he said.

"We have a system that calculates fuel consumption during the race and leaves you with a sufficient amount to reach the end of the race. If it calculates that it's consuming too much, it steps in by reducing the power.

"There are tracks more problematic than others, and it has occurred in the past that we finished right on the limit. It also depends on the combination between track and temperature: when it's cold you consume more, less so when it's hot.

"During the post-race meeting we have established that the system did not step in. The fuel was sufficient, and in fact Valentino crossed the finish line with no problems. The system did not reduce the power."

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as i said before the races started there was an interview with furuwassa and he was saying getting the M1 motor to do more millage with the same power was a challenge and caused a few problems.

so it looks like this is turning out to be true the yamaha had the lowest top end speed in a straight line at qatar.... even slower than suzuki.. ducati and honda have the fastest straight line speed.

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a quote from speedTV :

The Italian was an easy target on the long front straight in Doha. His M1 maxed out at 319 kph, a massive 10 kph behind Stoner's Ducati at 329 kph.

And Honda has joined the party with a power upgrade that saw factory rider Andrea Dovizioso hitting 327 kph. Even the Suzuki of Spanish rookie Alvaro Bautista was ahead of Rossi at 320 kph.

Tall Texan Ben Spies suffered the most and highlighted his smooth and brainy ride to fifth on debut with the Tech3 Yamaha team with a best of just 318 kph -- the slowest of the 17-rider field.

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I think yamaha need to sort this issue soon..

what do you guys think?
 
Should Yamaha be worried? It depends.

If Yamaha are slow b/c they have the widest engine configuration, the biggest riders, and therefore, the worst aerodynamics, then no, they shouldn't be worried. They will only experience trouble at circuits like Qatar, Mugello, Catalunya, Malaysia, Portugal, and Valencia. They have no chance of winning at Qatar or Valencia (though Casey's fall changed the Qatar race). Rossi is untouchable at Mugello, and Lorenzo has been unbeatable at Estoril. Imo, they only get burned at Catalunya and Malaysia.

If Yamaha genuinely lack top end, yes, they should be worried. They'll get burned at all of the tracks with a long straight from the exit of the last turn to the entry of the first turn.
 
I wonder if the Yamaha's lack of speed will cause us to have a deja vue of 2007? Meaning the Yamaha out performs the other bikes on the brakes and cornering while gobbled up on the straights. 2007 Rossi only had to worry about the ducati,2010 Rossi has Stoner, Dovi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa followed by a resurgent Hayden/Spies

There will be fireworks going off this year that is for sure
 
By not pushing the donk to extremes at Qatar they probably haven't damaged the first engine as much as the others.

We will find out soon enough if it's just games or a real cause for concern. I don't believe the gap is anywhere near what it was in 2007.....
 
It seems only Rossi so much down. Colin had clocked 321 and Jlo an average of 320Kmph

Possibly it is the war Vale's bike is set up
 
size-does-matter-742262.jpg
 
Why was Rossi's M1 slower than even the other Yamahas?

A possible answer is the gear ratio. They had probably calculated his gears to slipstream Stoner, i.e. a rather long top gear. But Pedrosa made Rossi lose contact with Stoner at first, then Stoner crashed, and Rossi had to lead the race without anybody cutting the air in front of him, with a top gear that was too long. So he lost some revs in the top gear.

That would answer the question
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 15 2010, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why was Rossi's M1 slower than even the other Yamahas?

A possible answer is the gear ratio. They had probably calculated his gears to slipstream Stoner, i.e. a rather long top gear. But Pedrosa made Rossi lose contact with Stoner at first, then Stoner crashed, and Rossi had to lead the race without anybody cutting the air in front of him, with a top gear that was too long. So he lost some revs in the top gear.

That would answer the question
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That's a good answer and one I can buy into. Yamaha has come a long way since 2007 and has had the chance to see others' top speed over the winter - they would not knowingly go into 2010 with a 10kmh deficit. The extra 10kmh didn't help Dovi against Rossi, but must have really po'd Hayden with that finish.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ Apr 15 2010, 09:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's a good answer and one I can buy into. Yamaha has come a long way since 2007 and has had the chance to see others' top speed over the winter - they would not knowingly go into 2010 with a 10kmh deficit. The extra 10kmh didn't help Dovi against Rossi, but must have really po'd Hayden with that finish.

The winter testing should have given them an idea of what was to come, but not the complete picture. Edwards has been quoted as saying during testing that with the new long-life engines, all of the bikes were within '4 or so kmph' of each other on top speed. Once they put them into race configuration though and need to start considering the extended life, that all changes as we saw in the race.

At this stage, Yamaha is suffering more than the other manufactures in top speed. As a reference, from the Qatar race in 2009 to that in 2010:

Stoner dropped 8.8kmph in top speed

Pedrosa dropped 11.2

Dovi 6.4 (his difference was less probably due to improved riding this year)

Lorenzo 10.4kmph down

Edwards 7.6 down

Rossi - down 15.6!!


Given J-Lo and Edwards suffered less (and their 2009 top speed was at most 3.1km slower than Vale), you would have to assume that some of Rossi's deficit was down to setup/gearing. It will be interesting to see how things progress as the engines age, I DO NOT want to see a repeat of 2007 and have to watch one of the field's best riders try and produce divine miracles week in & week out on an underpowered slug. Bring on close racing!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 15 2010, 06:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why was Rossi's M1 slower than even the other Yamahas?

A possible answer is the gear ratio. They had probably calculated his gears to slipstream Stoner, i.e. a rather long top gear. But Pedrosa made Rossi lose contact with Stoner at first, then Stoner crashed, and Rossi had to lead the race without anybody cutting the air in front of him, with a top gear that was too long. So he lost some revs in the top gear.

That would answer the question
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thats what gp one thinks also... maybe rossi was thinking of a laguna seca sequel huh!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slev7n @ Apr 16 2010, 03:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>thats what gp one thinks also... maybe rossi was thinking of a laguna seca sequel huh!

Yup, and GPOne says this info comes from Burgess himself!
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My view before the race was that the only chance for Rossi was to slipstream Stoner, as I said in a post here, so afterwards I naturally thought of a "slipstream" tall gear when wondering about the strange speed deficit of Rossi's M1.
1+1=2
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Rossi was slow all weekend

FP 1

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FP2

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QUALI
Qualifying

Pos. Num. Rider Nation Team Bike Km/h Time Gap 1st/Prev.
1 27 Casey STONER AUS Ducati Marlboro Team Ducati 329.1 1'55.007
2 46 Valentino ROSSI ITA Fiat Yamaha Team Yamaha 319.4 1'55.362 0.355 / 0.355
3 99 Jorge LORENZO SPA Fiat Yamaha Team Yamaha 320.5 1'55.520 0.513 / 0.158
4 14 Randy DE PUNIET FRA LCR Honda MotoGP Honda 319.2 1'55.831 0.824 / 0.311
5 65 Loris CAPIROSSI ITA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP Suzuki 321.6 1'55.899 0.892 / 0.068
6 4 Andrea DOVIZIOSO ITA Repsol Honda Honda 325.8 1'55.963 0.956 / 0.064
7 26 Dani PEDROSA SPA Repsol Honda Team Honda 323.0 1'55.990 0.983 / 0.027
8 5 Colin EDWARDS USA Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 318.7 1'56.005 0.998 / 0.015
9 69 Nicky HAYDEN USA Ducati Marlboro Team Ducati 322.2 1'56.163 1.156 / 0.158
10 7 Hiroshi AOYAMA JPN Interwetten Honda Honda 323.7 1'56.227 1.220 / 0.064
11 11 Ben SPIES USA Monster Yamaha Tech 3 Yamaha 318.0 1'56.271 1.264 / 0.044
12 36 Mika KALLIO FIN Pramac Racing Team Ducati 328.5 1'56.283 1.276 / 0.012
13 19 Alvaro BAUTISTA SPA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP Suzuki 319.5 1'56.450 1.443 / 0.167
14 41 Aleix ESPARGARO SPA Pramac Racing Team Ducati 321.5 1'56.652 1.645 / 0.202
15 58 Marco SIMONCELLI ITA San Carlo Gresini Honda 320.7 1'56.957 1.950 / 0.305
16 40 Hector BARBERA SPA Paginas Amarillas Aspar Ducati 326.6 1'57.130 2.123 / 0.173
17 33 Marco MELANDRI ITA San Carlo Honda Gresini Honda 321.8 1'57.325 2.318 / 0.195

Warm up
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Rossi, Lorenzo, Hayden, and Spies were slow all weekend. Only Dovi was at the top and he finished 3rd. Top 4 riders were covered only by 1.8 secondsI believe? I don't know folks maybe I'm reading too much into it, but when we get to tracks where the front straights are normal sized we might be in for a treat....that's asssuming everyone stays fit and on form.
 
Longest striaght of the season at qatar out of the way and they got a one/two.......should they be that worried?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 15 2010, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why was Rossi's M1 slower than even the other Yamahas?

A possible answer is the gear ratio. They had probably calculated his gears to slipstream Stoner, i.e. a rather long top gear. But Pedrosa made Rossi lose contact with Stoner at first, then Stoner crashed, and Rossi had to lead the race without anybody cutting the air in front of him, with a top gear that was too long. So he lost some revs in the top gear.

That would answer the question
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Theonly question I have there is then why did Rossi run out of fuel? That would suggest he had it too low geared to me would it not? I also remember China 07 ( and possibly Laguna 08?) where Burgess set it up very low geared which seemed odd because the Duc had such legs. The argument then was that they were going to try and use the power to attempt to put the bike in front od Stoner in the tight bits and slow him ..... as we saw at Laguna ...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaramaC @ Apr 16 2010, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Longest striaght of the season at qatar out of the way and they got a one/two.......should they be that worried?

Of course not, they have the best bike on the grid, scored a 1 - 2 at the track which will make the most of their weakness and Rossi's fans are already laying foundations in case the title should go elsewhere.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 16 2010, 07:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course not, they have the best bike on the grid, scored a 1 - 2 at the track which will make the most of their weakness and Rossi's fans are already laying foundations in case the title should go elsewhere.


OH ....!....INCOMING!!!!!......LOL
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Apr 16 2010, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Theonly question I have there is then why did Rossi run out of fuel? That would suggest he had it too low geared to me would it not? I also remember China 07 ( and possibly Laguna 08?) where Burgess set it up very low geared which seemed odd because the Duc had such legs. The argument then was that they were going to try and use the power to attempt to put the bike in front od Stoner in the tight bits and slow him ..... as we saw at Laguna ...
According to Yamaha (Briggs on Twitter) the excess spinning of the rear meant more apparent miles (to the engine) and hence more fuel usage. Too little rear end traction would also lead to a slower speed out of the last corner and, depending on the location of the trap, a slower top speed.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 16 2010, 05:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course not, they have the best bike on the grid, scored a 1 - 2 at the track which will make the most of their weakness and Rossi's fans are already laying foundations in case the title should go elsewhere.

Then let the faith do its work… the 10th is coming!
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