And by the way, having MotoGP as the development series and WSBK as the production series is getting things arse-about. WSBK should be for developing street bikes, which means you race a developmental version of the bike you expect to be selling to the punters in two years' time. MotoGP should be about having the best riders. Though really, the best riders will always go where the best money is.
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Not sure when they Rebooted 500cc? what/when was that?
I for one hope MGP never gets like NASCAR, its the most unbearable racing series on the planet. It never has been and has attracted folk because it has been what it has been and it hasn't strayed too far from that overlying formula ie. prototype racing.
Next year they are going CRT, it will be interesting to see how that pans out.
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Yep, it wasnt that long ago Spies himself was victim of a tire that came apart at 185 mph. We are very lucky to still have the kid as entertainment. I personally saw a tire explode on Matt Mladin coming down the back straight of Road Atlanta in the area of 185-190 mph. How he saved it is beyond me. Another rider, Brian Lovingood wasnt so lucky the same weekend when he had a tire explode in the same exact place, ended his career. These all happened in a small time frame in the same year when Dunlop was producing tires that were being overwhelmed by the bikes.
They rebooted the premier class in 2002. It was called "MotoGP". I think you are familiar with it?
Don't abandon reason at the mention of NASCAR. Most of us hate NASCAR b/c spec racing is the bane of our existence, but NASCAR's use of air-restrictors to control top speeds when necessary could prove to be beneficial in MotoGP.
This was also because they could not trademark "500 GP". The history of it is similar to Intel and their decision to drop the x86 designation, and move to the Pentium. They couldn't put a trademark on i586, and were sick of their competitors calliing their chips 486s as well. Background on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_(brand)#Origins_of_Pentium_trademark
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Im a Nascar fan and the mention of restrictor plates makes me want to puke.Putting them on GP bikes would probably make me shot myself
Dont forget Shinya Nakano, his tyre blew apart at Mugello at god knows what speed, got banged up pretty bad from what i remember.
I dont think it is the arsehole Flammini's that should be having a go at Dorna, as much as i despise them it is them who should be having a go at the Flammini's -
Gp's are supposed to be prototypes ie you cant just go into your local Yamaha dealer & pick up an M1, no matter how much green you show em. Superbikes are supposed to be bikes that you can if your wallet allows go into a dealer & get the same bike you see on the telly but that just aint true anymore. Those things are so complicated & expensive you cant get your hands on them as joe public so if you ask me its superbike that are going outside the rules not gp's.
As far as getting back to racing that is actually good to watch, then im not sure, but lowering the capacity aint gonna cut it. All this will do is what it has done already, increase costs so high that sponsors leave, factories leave & only the richest apply.
Same thing ive said a hundred times before, what would you rather watch -
1. 16 bikes lapping at record pace seconds apart
2. 20+ bikes lapping slower but close together with some good paint swapping & most of all competition.
At the moment all we are treated to is a competition of engineers & electronics, no matter who wins just an occasional spark of close racing.
[quote name='povol' timestamp='1299623744' post='268082']
Yep, it wasnt that long ago Spies himself was victim of a tire that came apart at 185 mph. We are very lucky to still have the kid as entertainment. I personally saw a tire explode on Matt Mladin coming down the back straight of Road Atlanta in the area of 185-190 mph. How he saved it is beyond me. Another rider, Brian Lovingood wasnt so lucky the same weekend when he had a tire explode in the same exact place, ended his career. These all happened in a small time frame in the same year when Dunlop was producing tires that were being overwhelmed by the bikes.
[/quote
I dont think it is the arsehole Flammini's that should be having a go at Dorna, as much as i despise them it is them who should be having a go at the Flammini's -
Gp's are supposed to be prototypes ie you cant just go into your local Yamaha dealer & pick up an M1, no matter how much green you show em. Superbikes are supposed to be bikes that you can if your wallet allows go into a dealer & get the same bike you see on the telly but that just aint true anymore. Those things are so complicated & expensive you cant get your hands on them as joe public so if you ask me its superbike that are going outside the rules not gp's.
As far as getting back to racing that is actually good to watch, then im not sure, but lowering the capacity aint gonna cut it. All this will do is what it has done already, increase costs so high that sponsors leave, factories leave & only the richest apply.
Same thing ive said a hundred times before, what would you rather watch -
1. 16 bikes lapping at record pace seconds apart
2. 20+ bikes lapping slower but close together with some good paint swapping & most of all competition.
At the moment all we are treated to is a competition of engineers & electronics, no matter who wins just an occasional spark of close racing.
[quote name='povol' timestamp='1299623744' post='268082']
Yep, it wasnt that long ago Spies himself was victim of a tire that came apart at 185 mph. We are very lucky to still have the kid as entertainment. I personally saw a tire explode on Matt Mladin coming down the back straight of Road Atlanta in the area of 185-190 mph. How he saved it is beyond me. Another rider, Brian Lovingood wasnt so lucky the same weekend when he had a tire explode in the same exact place, ended his career. These all happened in a small time frame in the same year when Dunlop was producing tires that were being overwhelmed by the bikes.
[/quote
Hey Lex,
I kinda like spec racing as everyone has the same kit, they just have to set it up & ride/drive it - rather than the who has the best car - Formula 1 is a perfect example!!
I kinda like spec racing as everyone has the same kit, they just have to set it up & ride/drive it - rather than the who has the best car - Formula 1 is a perfect example!!
Jeez i know its not good to restrict anything in racing but thats a bit far aint it Pov!
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Well you said they "rebooted" 500cc which sounds like they revived them, when in fact you probably should have just said "booted" 500's. Would have sounded silly saying 500GP when all there was going to be was 990 4strokes running around.
When the world is an oversimplified dichotomy, I'll let you know. Until then, I'm going to embrace the idea that racing is about the process of building machines and developing rider skill, not about the resulting entertainment product. However, I am of the opinion that bad technical regulations often lead to poor rider development and boring entertainment. If the sport looks bad on TV and few manufacturers are putting in an effort, you can rest assured that the technical regulations have some fundamental flaws.
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Come on its a shocker! I was waiting for my favorite "needlepoint masters" show to come on the other day, had to watch about 10 seconds of Nascar till my show came on so I changed over to the butter shaving championships for that 10 seconds!
The only good thing that ever came from NASCAR is "SHAAAAKE and BAKE!"
Actually was the Jean Girrard character based on Rossi?
That's called "club racing"
That's called "international sports".
Like it or loathe it, it's the way it is. MotoGP and WSBK do not exist in a vacuum, they have to have someone pay the bills. If there were a billion or so technically savvy fans with a passion for engineering, MotoGP would be a viable product as a development platform. Judging by the debate on most racing fan forums, we're a very, very long way from that.
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I see no problem with that, except I believe they may have played with the last two words a bit though the years, and put down on paper what "a bike" was
Two points.......
And I am a bike racing fan first and foremost,
Firstly, close racing will definitely improve the specticle, but it will not save MotoGP, and it is not the only key.
Why is MotoGP more popular than (say) World SuperSport for example. SS has some of the best racing you will ever see, with close racing and lots of overtaking, on bikes that look like they are going really fast (move around a lot, sliding, and on the limit). Why is SS not the category that most people watch, and analyse every detail of. Because the bikes are boring, conventional bikes. If there was no WSBK or MotoGP, and SS was the top category, with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner etc all fighting it out on 600's, would SS be as popular as MotoGP is ???? Maybe, but I doubt it.
For a pure enthusiast, SS is great racing, 20+ bikes all within 1.0sec of each other, and lots of passing, so if thats what people want, why don't they embrace SS. Because it is not the top category, it is not the peak, its not where the superstars are, its not where the money is.
As far as actual racing goes, F1 offers very little, but it is the most watched form of motorsport in the world. Why. There is better racing on any given weekend in Formula 3, with a bunch of unknowns, pulling off 'on the limit' moves, and somehow making them stick. People watch F1 because it is the pinnacle, the top, the most glamourous, the most prestigous, the most exotic, it is where the money is, it is where the beautiful people are, and it attracts the superstars. It has ATMOSPHERE.
MotoGP needs to increase the 'status' of MotoGP, and go more towards bikes that 'appear' to be exotic prototypes, not more towards production bikes. More visible technology, more expensive materials, more conceptual ideas, more radical ideas. I applaude Ducati for going to the full CF chassis, even if it is proven to be a failure - and that is the spirit of what MotoGP needs to be. Ducati also puts a priority on making the bike look beautiful.
MotoGP is structured towards bike racing fans only, they need to increase the spectical, introduce a party atmoshpere, more beautiful women, more celebrities, and bikes that appear to be really exotic and completely different to the R1 owned by the guy down the street. That way - if Pedros runs away and wins the race by 20 sec, at least people have experienced the atmosphere of MotoGP.
MotoGP needs a field of Rossi like superstars, and DORNA need to step in and help build a superstar image to the top riders. They need to be snapped by the paps with supermodels, on the back of yachts, driving Ferrari's, doing coffee in Cannes etc....... As much as I think he is a ...., more of the Lorenzo land type .........
That will bring the sponsors back.
Secondly, MotoGP needs to reduce the true costs, to attract more teams, and non-factory teams. DORNA needs to work on the business model for privateer teams to run a team profitably. A team should be able to come in, build a competative bike, secure sponsorship money (from other than bike factories), and turn a profit.
The costs are mostly in the people - not the materials. The most expensive part and the most development money goes to engines and gearboxes, and electrionics. Chassis development is not hugely expensive (ask any of the Moto2 teams).
So, leave the engine formula where it is (changing opens up a whole new can of worms). All the manufacturers are getting close to the development limits of the current 800cc engine, so the difference between top and bottom teams in engine performance is not huge and will get less and less as time goes by (and personally I don't think 1000cc bikes will produce better racing). Did the fans of F1 change when the engines changed. Did the racing get better. No to both.
Rev limit the existing engines, and take away fuel limits. Make the bikes as loud and extreme as they like.
Limit the electronics, or introduce a spec electronic package that all bikes must use. As long as the bikes look like they are on the edge, and are sliding around, electronics are not important to the image of the sport, it is not something that people see. The electronics need to be there for safety, but limit the ability for one team to get an invisible edge by spending millions of dollars on electronics.
My point is MotoGP is the top category, the pinnicle. DORNA need to build on that, expoit that, not move away from that to meet budget limitations.
Spend money on the image of MotoGP to mainstream people, who might go to the races for the party.
My opinion for whatever its worth.
And I am a bike racing fan first and foremost,
Firstly, close racing will definitely improve the specticle, but it will not save MotoGP, and it is not the only key.
Why is MotoGP more popular than (say) World SuperSport for example. SS has some of the best racing you will ever see, with close racing and lots of overtaking, on bikes that look like they are going really fast (move around a lot, sliding, and on the limit). Why is SS not the category that most people watch, and analyse every detail of. Because the bikes are boring, conventional bikes. If there was no WSBK or MotoGP, and SS was the top category, with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner etc all fighting it out on 600's, would SS be as popular as MotoGP is ???? Maybe, but I doubt it.
For a pure enthusiast, SS is great racing, 20+ bikes all within 1.0sec of each other, and lots of passing, so if thats what people want, why don't they embrace SS. Because it is not the top category, it is not the peak, its not where the superstars are, its not where the money is.
As far as actual racing goes, F1 offers very little, but it is the most watched form of motorsport in the world. Why. There is better racing on any given weekend in Formula 3, with a bunch of unknowns, pulling off 'on the limit' moves, and somehow making them stick. People watch F1 because it is the pinnacle, the top, the most glamourous, the most prestigous, the most exotic, it is where the money is, it is where the beautiful people are, and it attracts the superstars. It has ATMOSPHERE.
MotoGP needs to increase the 'status' of MotoGP, and go more towards bikes that 'appear' to be exotic prototypes, not more towards production bikes. More visible technology, more expensive materials, more conceptual ideas, more radical ideas. I applaude Ducati for going to the full CF chassis, even if it is proven to be a failure - and that is the spirit of what MotoGP needs to be. Ducati also puts a priority on making the bike look beautiful.
MotoGP is structured towards bike racing fans only, they need to increase the spectical, introduce a party atmoshpere, more beautiful women, more celebrities, and bikes that appear to be really exotic and completely different to the R1 owned by the guy down the street. That way - if Pedros runs away and wins the race by 20 sec, at least people have experienced the atmosphere of MotoGP.
MotoGP needs a field of Rossi like superstars, and DORNA need to step in and help build a superstar image to the top riders. They need to be snapped by the paps with supermodels, on the back of yachts, driving Ferrari's, doing coffee in Cannes etc....... As much as I think he is a ...., more of the Lorenzo land type .........
That will bring the sponsors back.
Secondly, MotoGP needs to reduce the true costs, to attract more teams, and non-factory teams. DORNA needs to work on the business model for privateer teams to run a team profitably. A team should be able to come in, build a competative bike, secure sponsorship money (from other than bike factories), and turn a profit.
The costs are mostly in the people - not the materials. The most expensive part and the most development money goes to engines and gearboxes, and electrionics. Chassis development is not hugely expensive (ask any of the Moto2 teams).
So, leave the engine formula where it is (changing opens up a whole new can of worms). All the manufacturers are getting close to the development limits of the current 800cc engine, so the difference between top and bottom teams in engine performance is not huge and will get less and less as time goes by (and personally I don't think 1000cc bikes will produce better racing). Did the fans of F1 change when the engines changed. Did the racing get better. No to both.
Rev limit the existing engines, and take away fuel limits. Make the bikes as loud and extreme as they like.
Limit the electronics, or introduce a spec electronic package that all bikes must use. As long as the bikes look like they are on the edge, and are sliding around, electronics are not important to the image of the sport, it is not something that people see. The electronics need to be there for safety, but limit the ability for one team to get an invisible edge by spending millions of dollars on electronics.
My point is MotoGP is the top category, the pinnicle. DORNA need to build on that, expoit that, not move away from that to meet budget limitations.
Spend money on the image of MotoGP to mainstream people, who might go to the races for the party.
My opinion for whatever its worth.
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Outch.
I'm just talking about the difference between deontological and teleological approach to reaching and end result. In my world, reaching a result is impossible without refining the process. The MSMA only care about maintaining their little club and developing their scooter technology. Dorna are sprinting towards spec racing. Neither will work in the long run.
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Winner!
I have said all along that the true prototype racing fans, are fans of the technology, and the rider that had the balls to go out and ride it. Kind of like the first guys that strapped their ... into a rocket to be shot out into space. They had very little idea of what to expect but the thrill of going where no man had gone before overcame the fear of not coming back. Those are my hero's, the men who show no fear while pushing the limits. Damn shame of what its become really.
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So ....... has everyone finished slashing there wrists yet"
Every year ..... this same ole discussion in the off season ........ then when the flag drops at Qatar ...... its gone
Every year ..... this same ole discussion in the off season ........ then when the flag drops at Qatar ...... its gone
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Hallelujah!
