Winglets-Strakes to be outlawed in 2017

Kropotkin said:

The total downforce generated by the strakes is around 5kg, I was told. That does not require a huge amount of structural strength.

If you think about it, you can see that the amount of load on the structures is relatively small. Fairings stay in place and in one piece, despite being subject to massive loads. Yet they break easily and without injuring riders when they collide.

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Massive loads? Not really.

If the highest pressure area is the fairing nosecone....and we make some assumptions:
the area is 40cm by 40cm
the speed is 300kph (83.3 m/s)
and the air density is 1.2 kg/m^3
Then:
Pressure = 0.5 x 1.2 x 83.3^2 = 4163Pa
acting on an area of (.4 x .4 = .16m^2)
so; 4163 × 0.16 =
666 N
It's the devil's work!!

povol said:

But that is if you hold your hand straight. When angled to create downforce you increase the load ten fold, plus my family cruiser never went 225 mph. Lol. If what Krop says is true about it only creating 5 kg of down force, doesn't seem like it would be worth the hassle to head down that path of development .

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If thinking for wheelie control 5 kg is not significant. But that sounds like Oxley having no idea, or more to the point Ducati to Oxley, "yeah isa for da wheelie"

More likely they were saying the Duc was was hard to control going into the braking zone. By that I assume at high speed, just setting up to brake the last thing you want as a rider is to fight the bike wobble. 5 kg sounds exactly the force the rider would put through the bars to keep it straight. If the winglets do that for them the rider is free to set up the corner and possibly brake a few yards later.

birdman said:

Still the most obvious explanation would be stability. Not as in suspect geometry stability. Thinking Ducatis of the past were long low stable beasts due to the L engine which were difficult to turn. Now it's a short wheelbase V. Nice and agile. But lost the d stability at high speed. So what does Gigi do? Stretch the wheelbase again to the best compromise? Nah, keep it short and agile, put on the winglets for top speed stability, have the best of both worlds. No wonder they have to ban it.

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The GP15's weakness was acceleration out of the hole...well the weakness of the GP15 was only evident when the two factory riders rode it.

I feel like Ducati suffers from battered woman syndrome when it comes to GP. The husband (DORNA) prefers other women (HONDA & YAMAHA) but loves to keep the wife (DUCATI) around because he knows he can abuse her to his heart's content, and she'll never leave even when he consorts with the other women endlessly.

povol said:

But that is if you hold your hand straight. When angled to create downforce you increase the load ten fold, plus my family cruiser never went 225 mph. Lol. If what Krop says is true about it only creating 5 kg of down force, doesn't seem like it would be worth the hassle to head down that path of development .

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The Centre of Pressure of a bike is above the Centre of Mass. So at high speed, the aero forces are trying to rotate the bike backwards (wheelie) taking load off the front tyres. The winglets try to counter that effect. Hence the increase in front end stability at high speed. So as JPS wrote some is better than none (assuming the winglets have no detrimental effects, which I suspect they do - cross/yaw wind anyone? - but Ducati think these are outweighed by the benefits)

Jumkie said:

Hell, even brake guards didn't prevent Rossi from kicking it....



I'll get my coat.

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Well played, sir. Well played.

Found this on another site

It's a prototype series, the factories should be able to do what they want

povol said:

Found this on another site

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Freeth's bike.
MV Agusta also ran them, not sure if they raced with them though.

Richy56 said:

It's a prototype series, the factories should be able to do what they want

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I agree to an extent. Engine performance, chassis, suspension, electronics etc, but if mounting chainsaws to the sides increased performance I would have to go on the side of safety.

A paragraph in the article said brake levers, sensors and such are essential to operate a motorcycle and safety while strakes are not. They are there for performance and potentially not safe. Performance can be achieved thru other means. I don't think Dorna is out to get Ducati because they are in love with Honda or Yamaha. At least that's the way I see it.

Maybe we should get rid of fairings. Those things are dangerous. If a piece snaps off someone can get their throat sliced.

povol said:

Ducati didn't spend millions inventing wings and their affects. They tried the band aid approach to a problem that other builders have overcome without gaudy and dangerous appendages . The regulations are very in depth when it comes to the shapes and size limitations of body parts and it's done for a reason, not just to .... with people. If you don't reign it in now, before long you would have 18 inch wings, then 2 foot wings etc. . It will be interesting to see how much of a hissy fit Ducati throws if they are banned. If they complain at all, it will be a feigned response to garner concessions as I don't think they were ever anything more than a stop gap measure to begin with.

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I'm with you. If they don't ban wings it could destroy traditional marriage as we know it. :happy:

Keshav said:

I'm with you. If they don't ban wings it could destroy traditional marriage as we know it. :happy:

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Ah, the village ..... speaketh.

Jumkie said:

Maybe we should get rid of fairings. Those things are dangerous. If a piece snaps off someone can get their throat sliced.

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Why stop at that? Get rid of those bone breaking, smoke belching, snarling machines altogether and force them all to prance around the track on tippy-toes, with their arms akimbo, wearing ballet outfits and panty shields, with the nut cracker suite playing in the background.

I think ducati already thought about the danger if other rider got tangled. somewhere in their design, or material they used, or anything.

and I'm wondering if Povol and Oxley knows everything they need to banning ducati wings.

Sorry for my english

HelloMars said:

I think ducati already thought about the danger if other rider got tangled. somewhere in their design, or material they used, or anything.

and I'm wondering if Povol and Oxley knows everything they need to banning ducati wings.

Sorry for my english

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In all seriousness I agree. If you look at the Yamaha winglets for example, they are held in place by 3 pop rivets so it's hard to imagine how they could do any serious damage.

Justin Wilson's death in IndyCar last year is fueling all of this .....

What if, what if, what if.

Motor racing is dangerous.

F1 is about to engage in the ultimate knee-jerk reaction because of Jules Bianchi and Justin Wilson who wasn't even racing in F1 when he was killed...and Jules sadly would not have been saved by anything because of the massive deceleration involved. F1 turned into a series of ..........all the driver whining begging for halo protection around the cockpit because something MIGHT happen.

Winglets flying off?

.....

That's the big concern?

These guys do 225MPH at Mugello...and people are concerned about winglets possibly coming off even though nothing indicates it would happen?

Insane.

JPSLotus said:

Justin Wilson's death in IndyCar last year is fueling all of this .....

What if, what if, what if.

Motor racing is dangerous.

F1 is about to engage in the ultimate knee-jerk reaction because of Jules Bianchi and Justin Wilson who wasn't even racing in F1 when he was killed...and Jules sadly would not have been saved by anything because of the massive deceleration involved. F1 turned into a series of ..........all the driver whining begging for halo protection around the cockpit because something MIGHT happen.

Winglets flying off?

.....

That's the big concern?

These guys do 225MPH at Mugello...and people are concerned about winglets possibly coming off even though nothing indicates it would happen?

Insane.

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we are not concerned with winglets coming off, just the opposite actually. The problem I see with them is the damage they could do by NOT coming off the bike in an incident.

povol said:

we are not concerned with winglets coming off, just the opposite actually. The problem I see with them is the damage they could do by NOT coming off the bike in an incident.

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Bro, I hear you. But pegs are just as dangerous. Seriously, if a bike cartwheels into another rider, the peg can pierce the head and kill instantly. I honestly don't see winglets any more or less dangerous. The windshield can do damage to a rider's exposed neck if it gets in the right place. Etc. And so forth.

If the argument against winglets is because it's 'just' a performance element and 'not essential' well then there are a bunch of things we could reasonably argue should be banned on the grounds of safety because as you say...anything, unforseen, can happen.

Btw double jeopardy is a safeguard so people are not 'tried' twice for murder after being legitimately acquitted; NOT a get out of jail card the next time one is busted for murder. Big difference. You can and quite often do see murderers sentenced multiple times for multiple murders.

While I fully agree that the winglets could indeed cut a rider were there to be an impact (and apologies for raising it, but think bike colliding with Rider incidents) there does need to be an acceptance that motorsports by it's very nature is dangerous and as such we do need to find ways to minimise the risks but not destroy the competitive essence that so makes the sport


Just to mention a coupld of incidents of which I am aware.

- Kev Curtain was collected by another rider, the rider's footpeg piercing the leathers and embedded itself into Kev's calf muscle

- Judd Greedy was run over after falling and suffered extremely severe neck trauma (he passed away) as the result of the fairing impacts

- Dale Corser (Troys brother) was involved in a super motard meet at Oran Park, he crashed and the clutch lever impacted near his femoral artery (never found out exactly what it did cut) resulting in severe cuts and blood loss (I was present at this one, saw it happen and had to clean the mess - luckily we had ambulances and some doctors competing)

- There was also a rider who was impacted by the bar ends at a Sydney track meet (cannot recall name) but it pierced his helmet.


Why mention?

Well these are just a few incidents that happened with the 'standard fare' equipment of motorcycles and the addition of winglets adds another risk at a time we should be reducing or minimising the risks.