Where is Ducati now

J4rn0 · May 23, 2012

I have been thinking about Ducati (yes I care about them) and thought a little about their situation.

The good: they are not speaking of vague front end any more. Now they speak of power delivery and taming the engine. That means the current frame's basic design is sound.

The bad: understeer still persisting, and power delivery too aggressive. Their riders have to wait more than Yam's or Honda's riders to open up. Understeer can also be connected with traction; how to put the power on the ground is now the main issue.

If we listen to the sound of the engines, something has changed. Ducati is the only factory machine that still 'rattles' when the TC intervenes. Honda and Yamaha stopped sounding that way last year. That means their TC belongs to a new generation, that doesn't cut the ignition so much any more. It's more subtle: it seems the new generation of TC is predictive, and acts on the fuel injection. (It needs to be predictive to intervene that way, otherwise it could not react in time).

This development caught Ducati unprepared. A major redesign of the injection system coupled with a predictive TC is not a joke. That's probably why Preziosi sounds very careful when he speaks of improvements: he knows that what he can give soon enough is a lighter engine with heavier crankshaft, revised cams to flatten the torque curve, and revised electronics to smooth out the power delivery, but he doesn't know when they'll be able to replicate the latest developments in traction control. So he speaks conservatively of 'some improvement' coming.

This would explain why Ducati is suddenly competitive in the wet: less lean angles and less power mean they can open the throttle as soon as the others do. Which is not the case on the dry.

cliche guevara · May 23, 2012

it puzzles me why the desmo seems to be good in the wet. i know in the wet the hp figures drop and we can expect all the engines to make roughly the same power, but that doesn't really change the throttle response does it? or maybe because less fuel is needed in the wet they can make the engine run thicker, thus making alternation of load much smoother?

i suspect its not necessarily power delivery (a stepped power curve) that makes the duc hard to ride but rather poor load transition.

i know its a whole different thing to a motogp, but when i ride a bike fast that runs very lean the bit of the corner where i get on the gas make the bike go really wide or very unstable(if you're brave enough to really hit the throttle) at the rear,maybe thats where stoners genius came into play .

i'd love to see some telemetry (preferrably already analyzed by someone who knows what hes talking about) but i've got the impression that rossi gets on the gas much more smooth and gradual where he would need to crank it open to keep the load transition time as short as possible

basspete · May 23, 2012

J4rn0 said:
I have been thinking about Ducati (yes I care about them) and thought a little about their situation.

The good: they are not speaking of vague front end any more. Now they speak of power delivery and taming the engine. That means the current frame's basic design is sound.

The bad: understeer still persisting, and power delivery too aggressive. Their riders have to wait more than Yam's or Honda's riders to open up. Understeer can also be connected with traction; how to put the power on the ground is now the main issue.

If we listen to the sound of the engines, something has changed. Ducati is the only factory machine that still 'rattles' when the TC intervenes. Honda and Yamaha stopped sounding that way last year. That means their TC belongs to a new generation, that doesn't cut the ignition so much any more. It's more subtle: it seems the new generation of TC is predictive, and acts on the fuel injection. (It needs to be predictive to intervene that way, otherwise it could not react in time).

This development caught Ducati unprepared. A major redesign of the injection system coupled with a predictive TC is not a joke. That's probably why Preziosi sounds very careful when he speaks of improvements: he knows that what he can give soon enough is a lighter engine with heavier crankshaft, revised cams to flatten the torque curve, and revised electronics to smooth out the power delivery, but he doesn't know when they'll be able to replicate the latest developments in traction control. So he speaks conservatively of 'some improvement' coming.

This would explain why Ducati is suddenly competitive in the wet: less lean angles and less power mean they can open the throttle as soon as the others do. Which is not the case on the dry.

Good call on the TC, Arrab and me were talking bout this at Silverstone last year. The Ducati sounded dog rough on acceleration compared to the others.

Makes sense to me

sewarion · May 23, 2012

I think you made some good points. But the question is whether the development of 'next gen' (Honda/Yam-like) electronics can compensate the much discussed shortcomings/principle disadvantages due to the V-engine-weight distribution etc. thing.

Anyway, as for the Ducs' peformance in the wet: I think that that bike physics on the absolute edge of ultra high level (dry) performance are a totally different matter to 'ordinary' bike physics as we know them. This special area is defined by the interplay of the narrow band in which the BS work. the radical geometry that is necessary to use the tyres, and the extreme forces that arise when you really hit that limit, plus electronics that let you perform within this narrow band. And it's exactly this very narrow band that is understood better by Yam and Honda, or at least translated much more efficiently into their bikes. While the Duc has problems reaching this 'zone' (getting heats into the tyres, unridable below 100%, etc.), and even when in this zone it remains pretty much a beast when compared to the jap bikes. We will see how Ducati addresses this very complex issue, but I doubt that next gen electronics can savior too much when you have geometry problems, whereas they would be much more helpful in compensating for harsh power delivery.

The Ducati is a great bike in 'ordinary' terms, which are much more reflected in the wet. It's the specific ultra high performance area of contemporary MotoGP that hurts them, and this is why they seem so much better in the rain.

MdubSTYLIE · May 23, 2012

I bet Dani could race the .... out of the duc in the wet being a sea captain and all. They should sign him.

Zootalaws · May 23, 2012

How many manufacturers are running big-bang engines now? Is it only Ducati?

If so, that could be the difference in sound you are hearing. I have no idea how they would control TC for a big-bang 90-degree V-4, but I am sure it would leave large periods of time with no 'bang'

chopperman · May 23, 2012

Zootalaws said:
How many manufacturers are running big-bang engines now? Is it only Ducati?

If so, that could be the difference in sound you are hearing. I have no idea how they would control TC for a big-bang 90-degree V-4, but I am sure it would leave large periods of time with no 'bang'

I though the Yam was a cross-plane config?

Zootalaws · May 23, 2012

Crossplane and big-bang are different. And not exclusive. You can have big bang and crossplane together, or not.

Do we know what the M1 is running?

hawkdriver · May 23, 2012

There's a good article about Ducatis head electronics engineer saying that Casey took very angular lines through the corners while Rossi takes smooth circular lines. I'll post a link for you when I get home if you can't find it.

cliché guevara said:
it puzzles me why the desmo seems to be good in the wet. i know in the wet the hp figures drop and we can expect all the engines to make roughly the same power, but that doesn't really change the throttle response does it? or maybe because less fuel is needed in the wet they can make the engine run thicker, thus making alternation of load much smoother?

i suspect its not necessarily power delivery (a stepped power curve) that makes the duc hard to ride but rather poor load transition.

i know its a whole different thing to a motogp, but when i ride a bike fast that runs very lean the bit of the corner where i get on the gas make the bike go really wide or very unstable(if you're brave enough to really hit the throttle) at the rear,maybe thats where stoners genius came into play .

i'd love to see some telemetry (preferrably already analyzed by someone who knows what hes talking about) but i've got the impression that rossi gets on the gas much more smooth and gradual where he would need to crank it open to keep the load transition time as short as possible

hawkdriver · May 23, 2012

They are on track now testing the new parts now that the sun is out. Keep an eye on Alex Briggs twitter, a mechanic for Rossi, he also replies to almost all post unless your name is Kropo lol. All the problems they have in the dry are there in the wet but it isn't as bad according to him.

gui22a · May 23, 2012

Comparision.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AhfvvhlvnUE

Rattles at 5 secs.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9MKk97cxCc

Does not rattle.

Zootalaws · May 23, 2012

I'll have to take it on advisement... too many years of loose helmets and loud bands

They all sound the same to me...

gui22a · May 23, 2012

Zootalaws said:
I'll have to take it on advisement... too many years of loose helmets and loud bands

They all sound the same to me...

You must be kidding

ROCKGOD01 · May 23, 2012

I have heard that Ducati have switched electronics to Mitsubishi from M.M. ANyone heard that as well?

Keshav · May 23, 2012

J4rn0 said:
I have been thinking about Ducati (yes I care about them) and thought a little about their situation.

The good: they are not speaking of vague front end any more. Now they speak of power delivery and taming the engine. That means the current frame's basic design is sound.

The bad: understeer still persisting, and power delivery too aggressive. Their riders have to wait more than Yam's or Honda's riders to open up. Understeer can also be connected with traction; how to put the power on the ground is now the main issue.

If we listen to the sound of the engines, something has changed. Ducati is the only factory machine that still 'rattles' when the TC intervenes. Honda and Yamaha stopped sounding that way last year. That means their TC belongs to a new generation, that doesn't cut the ignition so much any more. It's more subtle: it seems the new generation of TC is predictive, and acts on the fuel injection. (It needs to be predictive to intervene that way, otherwise it could not react in time).

This development caught Ducati unprepared. A major redesign of the injection system coupled with a predictive TC is not a joke. That's probably why Preziosi sounds very careful when he speaks of improvements: he knows that what he can give soon enough is a lighter engine with heavier crankshaft, revised cams to flatten the torque curve, and revised electronics to smooth out the power delivery, but he doesn't know when they'll be able to replicate the latest developments in traction control. So he speaks conservatively of 'some improvement' coming.

This would explain why Ducati is suddenly competitive in the wet: less lean angles and less power mean they can open the throttle as soon as the others do. Which is not the case on the dry.

I know of places where they never speak of racism - despite the fact that it still exists. The fact that Ducati is not publically bemoaning the lack of progress with the chassis doesn't mean ergo the problem is solved.

Keshav · May 23, 2012

gui22a said:
Comparision.

[media]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AhfvvhlvnUE[/media]

Rattles at 5 secs.

[media]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9MKk97cxCc[/media]

Does not rattle.

Why can't they sound that awesome on the MGP broadcasts?

Jumkie · May 23, 2012

Well the test has been reduced to a few hours because of rain...again. How many times has this been the case this year? Kropo once explained to me when I posed the question, that they do this because its easier to run to the factory when they forgot to bring something. I don't buy it. I think they're just stupid. They should pack everything they need, tripple check they have everything, then fly away to somewhere it DOES NOT ....... RAIN!!! Stupid .....!

Anyway, good for them the track dried out at noon. Lucky, and I emphasis the word LUCKY for them tomorrow's weather is favorable. I hope they get some .... sorted.

hawkdriver · May 23, 2012

Keshav said:
I know of places where they never speak of racism - despite the fact that it still exists. The fact that Ducati is not publically bemoaning the lack of progress with the chassis doesn't mean ergo the problem is solved.

The other thing is how many times have we heard that the front is good but when they try to fix the rear the front goes bad again. Maybe third times a charm or are we on #4.

hawkdriver · May 23, 2012

Alex Briggs

We hit the track after lunch when it dried out. JB cracked the whip on us & we managed to get the whole days planed test done in 1/2 a day.

I can't tell you exactly what we did. But its been good. Some stuff not what we need, but we also tested something that made us smile.

I hope they took a step forward, Alex has always been honest about progress and steps backwards. He also quickly dispels BS from the so called motgp journos.

Jumkie · May 23, 2012

Keshav said:
I know of places where they never speak of racism - despite the fact that it still exists. The fact that Ducati is not publically bemoaning the lack of progress with the chassis doesn't mean ergo the problem is solved.

Interesting way of putting it. Well, if the last year and a third is any indication, they will continue to develop the GP12.46. This, despite the fact that when they they reluctantly caved in to X.69 direction they immediately had success (despite Nicky's mysterious downturn since). So lets just hope that they at least ask for Nicky's opinion on the new developments, of course if its successful, we can all gladly pat Rossi on the back, if its ...., Ducati it will be clearly in the blame.

Where is Ducati now

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