What's Wrong with the Ducati?

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BarryMachine
3504791367672586

 

Well thank you.

 

Can't say I remember that as "metalanguage" though the ideology was the same.

 

Was DrN suggesting they change CoG and cant the engine back for lessening of VSG? CoG is just a relatively static ( constant ) ( apart from say fuel loss etc. ) variable, and easily adjustable. Matter of fact I wondered when the change in Min weight occurred at the beginning of 2012 whether it was a result of Ducati's testing that cuased them to perhaps run extra ballast to try and reposition there CoG . In any case none of that has worked.

 

The problem has been described as a vibration at the front that renders the front unpredictable. Whatever they have is causing a change in the centroid ( not CoG ) of turning of the bike. A "mystery" varying shift of that centroid would explain what the riders are saying, A VSG attempting to straighten ( stabilise longitudinally ) would explain that.

 

And thence back to the discussion ......... DoE ( as you call it ) is precisely what I have been going on to ascertain the cure for the Ducati.

ie. Ducati have changed so much:

 

Several frames constructions ( tough some folk still blame this.

CoG ....... :rolleyes: these aren't "showroom bikes" they can be fiddled with so easily ....... to suggest Ducati haen't tested this is ludicrous.

Engine tilted back ........ to some extent as ( supposedly ) Ducati have tried that.

Tyres ........

 

All ( and more ) to no avail, ergo its something that is a "mystery" to them

 

VSG's are a mystery!! whats wrong with that!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

 

Until such time as they produce a test and negative result for the affect of VSG, and given that it would be a noticeable characteristic of say a Duc compared to a Yam engine, I feel I can declare ...... Its the VSG!
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Barry. Barry. Barry. Stop embarrassing yourself.

If such a blatant display of ignorance wasn't so amusing, I'd almost feel bad about exposing it.
 
Good article from Krop.

Dumb arse calcs (sorry Jum) shows a potential/optimal/theoretical (sorry Jum) fuel advantage of 190 odd grams of fuel. Seems a bit much, but even if it's 50cc it's worth having. Stupid but I needed to understand the magnitude of any advantage, assuming they don't cut fuel during the shift, which 21l says you will.

That said, I think it's more to do with not unsettling the bike over any fuel saving.
 
Even with a twenty K speed advantage Ducati are no better than a CRT, If Pirros bike is no better its time to go home, the worst day for Ducati ever.
 
thedeal
3506391367758646

Even with a twenty K speed advantage Ducati are no better than a CRT, If Pirros bike is no better its time to go home, the worst day for Ducati ever.
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Reading race lap analysis we can see Pirro had consistently a bit better pace than Dovi until lap 16. After that he subtly fell down, but some laps he was able to regain the better pace. The fall in pace was too abrupt, which led us to a conclusion that it was Pirro's lack of physical condition in race given he is now only a test rider.


 


So we have a mid to low end rider, <u>without any race physical and mental rhythm</u>, lapping consistently faster than Dovi, a factory experienced top end rider, for much of the race. That was pretty good to me.


 


Last year in Jerez Pirro was 3 to 3.5 seconds off the pace, with Gresini CRT. This year, given all these conditions, he cut it down to an average of 1.5 seconds. So I don't think Ducati GP13.2 is a worst bike, it's just the rider that is not good enough to test it.
 
gui22a
3507041367766078

Reading race lap analysis we can see Pirro had consistently a bit better pace than Dovi until lap 16. After that he subtly fell down, but some laps he was able to regain the better pace. The fall in pace was too abrupt, which led us to a conclusion that it was Pirro's lack of physical condition in race given he is now only a test rider.
 
So we have a mid to low end rider, <u>without any race physical and mental rhythm</u>, lapping consistently faster than Dovi, a factory experienced top end rider, for much of the race. That was pretty good to me.
 
Last year in Jerez Pirro was 3 to 3.5 seconds off the pace, with Gresini CRT. This year, given all these conditions, he cut it down to an average of 1.5 seconds. So I don't think Ducati GP13.2 is a worst bike, it's just the rider that is not good enough to test it.
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Might however also be his tires going off, which Ducati is notorious for.
 
stiefel
3507221367770131

Might however also be his tires going off, which Ducati is notorious for.
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It might be but I don't think so because tires normally don't go off suddenly, it's going down progressively as it happened with both Hayden and Dovi (albeit more than Hondas and Yamaha).


 


Well tomorrow we'll have a test, so we'll see what Dovi and Hayden think. 
 
gui22a
3507251367770897

It might be but I don't think so because tires normally don't go off suddenly, it's going down progressively as it happened with both Hayden and Dovi (albeit more than Hondas and Yamaha).
 
Well tomorrow we'll have a test, so we'll see what Dovi and Hayden think.
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I really hope you're judgement is correct in this case. I badly want Ducati to be competitive again.
 
stiefel
3507261367771228

I really hope you're judgement is correct in this case. I badly want Ducati to be competitive again.
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AFAIK the new bike has better insertion in turns, i.e, better front end feel, but it still lacks a solution for running wide in corners (understeering). However, this info is about the older version. We know nothing about this version Pirro has been riding.


 


It's not the final solution yet, rumors are that we must expect a refined version in Barcelona test, including a revised engine and gearbox, both expected to be lighter and smaller. This will be the ace of spades to cure the understeer. Have no idea if it will work. 
 
gui22a
3507321367773761

AFAIK the new bike has better insertion in turns, i.e, better front end feel, but it still lacks a solution for running wide in corners (understeering). However, this info is about the older version. We know nothing about this version Pirro has been riding.
 
It's not the final solution yet, rumors are that we must expect a refined version in Barcelona test, including a revised engine and gearbox, both expected to be lighter and smaller. This will be the ace of spades to cure the understeer. Have no idea if it will work.
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Well, they are being run by Germans now...

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
New frame, meant to allow better weight distribution.


A new more compact engine to take full advantage of the new frame should debut at Mugello or Misano.
 
gui22a
3507251367770897

It might be but I don't think so because tires normally don't go off suddenly 
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Say what? Yes they do. All's going fine, then .... nothing left. There's a tiny layer of rubber compared to a road tyre. When it's gone, it's gone.


 


What you may be confused with are riders that manage their tyre wear better - knowing that thrashing the bike is just going to eat the tyre and have your handling just disappear. Scott Redding 2012 and Scott Redding 2013 are a perfect example of this. Last year Redding slipped and slid his way round the track for 5 laps and then had nothing left. Redding 2013 is much more aware of managing his tyres and look at the difference to his position - it's called racecraft.


 


Race tyres degrade in two ways - they overheat and delaminate, or they wear out, both result in grip just disappearing.


 


I would say that Pirro was pushing it as hard as he could to be where he was and he ran out of tyre. Hayden and Dovi are much more experienced with GP bikes and would know that riding 11/10ths is not the way to last to the end of the race.


 


Stoner mentioned it enough - that he was catching 3, 4, 5... 10 front-end loses a lap on the Ducati when the tyres went off and that they went off like falling off a cliff.
 
gui22a
3507041367766078

Reading race lap analysis we can see Pirro had consistently a bit better pace than Dovi until lap 16. After that he subtly fell down, but some laps he was able to regain the better pace. The fall in pace was too abrupt, which led us to a conclusion that it was Pirro's lack of physical condition in race given he is now only a test rider.


 


So we have a mid to low end rider, <u>without any race physical and mental rhythm</u>, lapping consistently faster than Dovi, a factory experienced top end rider, for much of the race. That was pretty good to me.


 


Last year in Jerez Pirro was 3 to 3.5 seconds off the pace, with Gresini CRT. This year, given all these conditions, he cut it down to an average of 1.5 seconds. So I don't think Ducati GP13.2 is a worst bike, it's just the rider that is not good enough to test it.
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I didnt say it was a worse bike,what said was if its not an improvement they should quit, i like others want them to be comtetative but Dovi being out paced by a crt!! surely it cant get worse. can it??
 
Matthew Birt:


 


Hayden and Dovizioso both tested the Ducati 'lab' bike raced by Michele Pirro in Jerez today. No big progress to report for Ducati fans. Was marginally better on corner entry and turning but not cured understeer at all. Nicky said: "It is easier on corner entry to lay it into the corner and you don’t have to fight it as much. And it improved the turning a little bit but mainly because on entry you can make the apex so on the exit like in Turn 4 I could keep a good exit and get a good drive off the inside." Dovi's verdict was: "We compare the chassis and the difference is so small unfortunately. The entry is a little better in the fast corners. But it is nothing special and the lap time didn’t change so much."
 
They are still using the same old engine crank and box that was designed to work as a stressed member. That's certainly a big limitation as that engine is bigger and heavier than it needs be for a twin spar frame, and its positioning options are restricted. 
 
J4rn0
3508671367873696

They are still using the same old engine crank and box that was designed to work as a stressed member. That's certainly a big limitation as that engine is bigger and heavier than it needs be for a twin spar frame, and its positioning options are restricted. 
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Sure, everything has gone as expected. 


 


Understeer, as far as I understood, seems to be a problem related to positioning the engine in the frame. Current engine won't help. We'll see a better progress by June, but to cure the problem of tire degradation Ducati will have to apply a new set of technology on their electronics side. 


 


Gobmeier said today that updates are coming from Audi, but not to this bike. I don't get it but maybe it's something related to new techs. 
 
The Germans are taking one step at a time, just like they said they would.   The Ducati should start making some in-roads with about two races left this year.  Dovi should be in the mix a little more next year with the GP14.
 

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