What's Wrong with the Ducati?

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birdman
3496651367029025

 

You mean like a carbon fibre stressed engine canted forward L4 screamer with desmo thingy valves shrieking down straights at 17000 rpm? Preposterous, must be a alloy framed mass centralised 75 degree V4. Convention people, we must comply with convention. This is no place for innovation.
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Good words Bird. Why would we want innovation in a prototype class? Bring back the tyre wars, or put them all on bog standard Blades. Take the keys from a hat at every round and race the bike you are given. That gives you a level playing field and pure racing. Pro Am anyone? It's GP I want the best riders, factories and tyre companies fighting, and innovating to win the title.
 
J4rn0
3496141366995636

Barry, how does the VSG theory explain the fact that Ducatis always worked very well in the wet?


 Tires could explain that (Bridgestone have not

"upgraded" or changed the body of their rain tires, I heard).
Click to expand...


 


Glad you put a question mark at the end of that, because I believe that is possible myth. It only seemed to surface when Rossi once got a 3rd ( or 2nd ) on the Duc. in the wet ......... and maybe referencing back to Stoner on the Duc ...... which would be a mute point as Stoner on anything in the wet was good.


 


However ......... my theory on VSG's is in part based on why the Duc seemed to work in a "loose as a goose" ( slipping around ) situation ....... I was reminded of laydown engine speedway bikes v's the old upright cylinder engines. The Laydown is better once in a slide, the upright seeming "twitchier" to control in the slide.


 


Even though I have not seen any data comparing the Duc's performance in the wet v's dry. the analogy of a laydown engine ( with its reciprocating mass near 90 degrees, and in front of the centroid of the bike ( not the CoG ...... thats too simple, it suggests the bike is a lump of lead and experiences no dynamic forces ...... or at least attempts to remain blissfully ignorant of such forces ) .
 
birdman
3496611367020196

And I the opposite, because I have always baracked for the underdogs.


 


The tire war gave the smaller companies with the lower budgets the opportunity to compete by choosing the alternative. The day the alternative was taken away, what happened? Ducati became a POS, yes, but far more important to me, Kwaka immediately gave the big .... you to Ezy and pulled out, while Suzuki went back to one bike.
Click to expand...


 


Keeping tyre competition but banning SNS would have helped. If the teams had to use tyres they brought to the track before Friday practise, that would have helped the tyre war.


 


It seems they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Rossi complained the Michelin's were ...., Dorna folded. The rest of the field have been paying out the ... ever since.
 
BarryMachine
3496811367074505

Glad you put a question mark at the end of that, because I believe that is possible myth. It only seemed to surface when Rossi once got a 3rd ( or 2nd ) on the Duc. in the wet ......... and maybe referencing back to Stoner on the Duc ...... which would be a mute point as Stoner on anything in the wet was good.


 


However ......... my theory on VSG's is in part based on why the Duc seemed to work in a "loose as a goose" ( slipping around ) situation ....... I was reminded of laydown engine speedway bikes v's the old upright cylinder engines. The Laydown is better once in a slide, the upright seeming "twitchier" to control in the slide.


 


Even though I have not seen any data comparing the Duc's performance in the wet v's dry. the analogy of a laydown engine ( with its reciprocating mass near 90 degrees, and in front of the centroid of the bike ( not the CoG ...... thats too simple, it suggests the bike is a lump of lead and experiences no dynamic forces ...... or at least attempts to remain blissfully ignorant of such forces ) .
Click to expand...


 


Look here Barry, the only time Rossi-Ducati beat Stoner-Honda, it was raining cats and dogs. The only other time he could have beaten him, but ended as we all know in a torpedoing episode, it was also raining.


Coincidence? No way.
 
We now know that the Stoner-Honda was not a revolution/entirely foreign machine from the Ducati. It was actually the bike that Stoner was asking for at Ducati: A 90 V twin with smooth throttle delivery, no understeer.


 


Stoner jumped ship and landed with a bike that he was well suited. Rossi jumped ship and landed on a machine that is still several iterations before it can run consistently at the front.
 
birdman
3496651367029025

You mean like a carbon fibre stressed engine canted forward L4 screamer with desmo thingy valves shrieking down straights at 17000 rpm? Preposterous, must be a alloy framed mass centralised 75 degree V4. Convention people, we must comply with convention. This is no place for innovation.
Click to expand...


 


The role of a single tire supplier should be exactly that of providing tires that do not impact the performance of any of the (hopefully) conceptually different prototypes that take part in the championship. Sometimes I wonder why this seems so difficult to understand -- not so much for Bridgestone, who might be partially justified for having a tunnel vision focused on absolute performance at the cost of an exceedingly narrow range of useful working temperatures; but for Dorna and FIM who are supposed to look at the large picture and act accordingly in the interest of the sport.
 
Stoner jumped ship and landed with a bike that he was well suited. Rossi jumped ship and landed on a machine that is still several iterations before it can run consistently at the front.
Click to expand...


 


what? the? ....?
 


Qatar: Yamaha, Yamaha, Honda, Honda, Yamaha, Honda.


COTA: Honda, Honda, Yamaha, Yamaha, Honda, Yamaha.


 


Yeah, those Yamaha's are completely outclassed - they just haven't got what it takes to run consistently at the front...
 
J4rn0
3496971367093061

Look here Barry, the only time Rossi-Ducati beat Stoner-Honda, it was raining cats and dogs. The only other time he could have beaten him, but ended as we all know in a torpedoing episode, it was also raining.


Coincidence? No way.
Click to expand...


 


So you agree with me on the VSG's? ......... it would seem :lol:
 
BarryMachine
3496811367074505

 

Glad you put a question mark at the end of that, because I believe that is possible myth. It only seemed to surface when Rossi once got a 3rd ( or 2nd ) on the Duc. in the wet ......... and maybe referencing back to Stoner on the Duc ...... which would be a mute point as Stoner on anything in the wet was good.

 

However ......... my theory on VSG's is in part based on why the Duc seemed to work in a "loose as a goose" ( slipping around ) situation ....... I was reminded of laydown engine speedway bikes v's the old upright cylinder engines. The Laydown is better once in a slide, the upright seeming "twitchier" to control in the slide.

 

Even though I have not seen any data comparing the Duc's performance in the wet v's dry. the analogy of a laydown engine ( with its reciprocating mass near 90 degrees, and in front of the centroid of the bike ( not the CoG ...... thats too simple, it suggests the bike is a lump of lead and experiences no dynamic forces ...... or at least attempts to remain blissfully ignorant of such forces ) .
Click to expand...


Ok, Barry.

Can you describe, or go one better create, the DoE array that would isolate and quantify the effect of 'VSG's on the speedway laydown engine compared to the higher CoG of the upright engine, in regards to controllability in a slide?


(While you're at it, you want to calc the Mean Piston Speed on those fuckers....might open some people's eyes...)
 
BJ.C
3497201367129602

what? the? ....?
 


Qatar: Yamaha, Yamaha, Honda, Honda, Yamaha, Honda.


COTA: Honda, Honda, Yamaha, Yamaha, Honda, Yamaha.


 


Yeah, those Yamaha's are completely outclassed - they just haven't got what it takes to run consistently at the front...
Click to expand...


I think he means when Rossi landed on the Ducati.
 
Dr No
3497351367140930

Ok, Barry.

Can you describe, or go one better create, the DoE array that would isolate and quantify the effect of 'VSG's on the speedway laydown engine compared to the higher CoG of the upright engine, in regards to controllability in a slide?


(While you're at it, you want to calc the Mean Piston Speed on those fuckers....might open some people's eyes...)
Click to expand...


 


God damn!!! will you guys drop CoG!! its bugger all to do with it.


 


Its about a force hats being created that effects to turning of a bike.


 


Like the wheels spinning on that bike. If you are stopped and put your feet up on the footpegs and hold your hands up in the air what happens as compared to if you did the same at 100kph. What holds you up?? It sure as hell is not CoG ...... cos that has not changed. ( thats an analogy don't get dumb and try to use that on me )


 


Because an engine encloses the piston/conrod etc. in a solid engine case it creates a phantom shaft "somewhere" in space around that engine, that "somewhere is the point around which VSG;s operate. At any one time when the piston is say flying toward the head, it can be instantaneously seen as a mass on a wheel which has its axis at the point "somewhere".


If that point is close to the Centroid of the bike ( not CoG ) in a turn it has little effect. If its away from that  centroid, then the effect is more.


 


With may cylinders there is a chance to negate the many instantaneous VSG's by smoothing the engine fire ( ala Honda ) or bring the bank of cylinders back around the centroid ( ala Yamaha ..... and to some extent Honda ) and narrow the V ( ala Honda ).


 


Tipping the Duc engine back did a bit, but its still ain't good enough. And now sadly it is difficult to see any rider get on it and give it a serious go ........ they already have the excuse that "the Duc is flawed" so they can just ride it a tad below par ( safe ) and collect a paycheck.
 
BarryMachine
3497491367145649

 

God damn!!! will you guys drop CoG!! its bugger all to do with it.

 

Its about a force hats being created that effects to turning of a bike.

 

Like the wheels spinning on that bike. If you are stopped and put your feet up on the footpegs and hold your hands up in the air what happens as compared to if you did the same at 100kph. What holds you up?? It sure as hell is not CoG ...... cos that has not changed. ( thats an analogy don't get dumb and try to use that on me )

 

Because an engine encloses the piston/conrod etc. in a solid engine case it creates a phantom shaft "somewhere" in space around that engine, that "somewhere is the point around which VSG;s operate. At any one time when the piston is say flying toward the head, it can be instantaneously seen as a mass on a wheel which has its axis at the point "somewhere".

If that point is close to the Centroid of the bike ( not CoG ) in a turn it has little effect. If its away from that  centroid, then the effect is more.

 

With may cylinders there is a chance to negate the many instantaneous VSG's by smoothing the engine fire ( ala Honda ) or bring the bank of cylinders back around the centroid ( ala Yamaha ..... and to some extent Honda ) and narrow the V ( ala Honda ).

 

Tipping the Duc engine back did a bit, but its still ain't good enough. And now sadly it is difficult to see any rider get on it and give it a serious go ........ they already have the excuse that "the Duc is flawed" so they can just ride it a tad below par ( safe ) and collect a paycheck.
Click to expand...
Read it again.

Then have a go at answering the question, Mr Phsntom Shaft...
 
Dr No
3497611367149453

Read it again.

Then have a go at answering the question, Mr Phsntom Shaft...
Click to expand...


 


No .... I believe you are not getting my answer ........ possibly because you ........ as I said ....... have attempted to compare CoG.
 
BarryMachine
3497831367158143

 

No .... I believe you are not getting my answer ........ possibly because you ........ as I said ....... have attempted to compare CoG.
Click to expand...
What a sooky cop out.

But an excellent way to reveal the paucity of your knowledge. But I guess it's difficult to answer a question thst your own response demonstrates you don't understand.

Give it up, BM.
 
Moment of Inertia, Mr Phantom Shaft.


Now how about that DoE on the laydown v vertical speedway engine?

Have a shot. Forget the array, how'd you go about it?
 
Dr No
3497351367140930

 (While you're at it, you want to calc the Mean Piston Speed on those fuckers....might open some people's eyes...)
Click to expand...


 


It's not as high as a jet sprint boat :)


 


Seriously though - the mps is the limiting factor and both Honda and Yamaha have learned that if you keep it down, your engines last a whole lot longer. So they are going long on torque and gearing and keeping rpm below the point they start ripping the oil off the walls.
 

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