Help Support MotoGP Forum:
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
J4rn0
Well, with all do respect my Italian friend, NOT exactly news! Those of us who have been paying attention indicted the series back in 07-08 for eliminating Ducati's relationship with Bridgestone. Even then they requested to develop a relationship with Michelin, the manufacture which became the ire of blame for costing VR his god given right of uninterrupted titles. Isn't this why you and I had such animated discussions during the tire debacle that led to the <del>Rossi</del> spec tire? You never wanted to accept the tire war was eliminated in favor of Rossi (just like it took you a couple of years to accept that Ducati was making changes FOR Rossi.) You also never accepted the changes in tire development once VR had the Bridgestones were decidedly detrimental to Ducati (where Casey requested to be supply with the 07 spec tire).
Its 2013, and barely now the power politics have enable Ducati to declare the problem to their woes could be resolved with a tweak of the tires? Uhm, maybe they should threaten to QUIT (like Rossi did) take all 4 of their bikes if they don't get special tires, you know, to put pressure on the League...oh crap, TOO LATE, they already added 10+ pretend bikes that give everybody the allusion of a full grid. Good bye leverage. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Ducati should have quit GP back in 08-09 (around the time Stoner became 'the most hated rider in the world', this was the writing on the wall for DucatiGP).
Well, with all do respect my Italian friend, NOT exactly news! Those of us who have been paying attention indicted the series back in 07-08 for eliminating Ducati's relationship with Bridgestone. Even then they requested to develop a relationship with Michelin, the manufacture which became the ire of blame for costing VR his god given right of uninterrupted titles. Isn't this why you and I had such animated discussions during the tire debacle that led to the <del>Rossi</del> spec tire? You never wanted to accept the tire war was eliminated in favor of Rossi (just like it took you a couple of years to accept that Ducati was making changes FOR Rossi.) You also never accepted the changes in tire development once VR had the Bridgestones were decidedly detrimental to Ducati (where Casey requested to be supply with the 07 spec tire).
Its 2013, and barely now the power politics have enable Ducati to declare the problem to their woes could be resolved with a tweak of the tires? Uhm, maybe they should threaten to QUIT (like Rossi did) take all 4 of their bikes if they don't get special tires, you know, to put pressure on the League...oh crap, TOO LATE, they already added 10+ pretend bikes that give everybody the allusion of a full grid. Good bye leverage. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Ducati should have quit GP back in 08-09 (around the time Stoner became 'the most hated rider in the world', this was the writing on the wall for DucatiGP).
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
Typical!! VSG's are too hard to understand , so its the. Tyres. 
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Jumkie
What I want to discuss here is the role of the tires in a single tire supplier context as we have now: tires should become a commodity that do not cause advantage or disadvantage for any manufacturer, as it is in F1. That's what I was saying.
By the way I never agreed with your opinions, regarding Rossi in general and Rossi-Ducati in particular, but that's not relevant to this issue.
With all respect Jum, you are off the mark, too obsessed with your own agenda probably.
What I want to discuss here is the role of the tires in a single tire supplier context as we have now: tires should become a commodity that do not cause advantage or disadvantage for any manufacturer, as it is in F1. That's what I was saying.
By the way I never agreed with your opinions, regarding Rossi in general and Rossi-Ducati in particular, but that's not relevant to this issue.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
BarryMachine
Barry, how does the VSG theory explain the fact that Ducatis always worked very well in the wet? Tires could explain that (Bridgestone have not "upgraded" or changed the body of their rain tires, I heard).
3495581366936767
Typical!! VSG's are too hard to understand , so its the. Tyres.
Barry, how does the VSG theory explain the fact that Ducatis always worked very well in the wet? Tires could explain that (Bridgestone have not "upgraded" or changed the body of their rain tires, I heard).
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
J4rn0
There was an Italian guy with us in the Austin party house. I told him ALL Italians have a pass on being VR fans. They earned it by birth and blood.
Ok buddy, lets shelve all that other stuff about DucatiVR... Yes, I agree with you, spec tires should not be detrimental to any one factory manufacture. The thing is, that IS EXACTLY WHY the League instituted to a single spec tire (Oh, you won't find it in any press release though). Come an my good friend, is it not obvious to you, or are you still of the opinion VR, being the only one to switch in 08, then shortly after the elimination of the 'tire war' resulting in a single tire supplier, then tire development changed causing ONE factory to be detrimentally affected! Is connecting the dots that difficult? I suppose you can make the case that allowing VR to switch (affectively killing the tire war) was done to HELP him (that is NOT HURT anybody else). Perhaps it was an unintended consequence, regardless, the results were the same. Bridgestone CHANGED development (away from what Ducati). That change was decidedly in favor of VR and the Jap manufactures and detrimental to Stoner and DUCATI. How in the world can we still argue this point? What are we going to ague next? Friend, like it or not (which I don't), believe it or not (which you seem not to) the series revolves around Valentino Rossi. It has since about 02-03 to present. I accept this reality, the difference between me and you is that we disagree in who this reality has affected the sport.
Just a quick note. While at AustinGP, we met up with a cool ... MF who is Curve's brotha from anotha motha. This dude was in charge of the Yamaha tent, which was totally bad .... He said on Friday he sold over 1000 VR hats totaling $70,000. By Sunday morning he sold out of VR hats, and said of all the sales he made over the weekend, VR .... was more than half of his entire income. He said had he brought more VR ...., that he would have doubled his total for the event. Which he estimated at about $215,000. The man sells! This is one vender tent, we might be able to imagine all other Dorna licensed merchandise venders at the track (of which there were many). I was mind-boggled since this was one time I could get a real sense from a personal contact as to the immense magnitude that VR represents where business men running a sport are MOST interested—the money. If there is still ANY DOUBT that the League’s schemes, ambitions, business dealing, changes to rules regardless of major or minor, are not overwhelming influenced by VR’s bottomless money making potential, then there is nothing I can ever say to convince you otherwise.
Friend, those of us here on the forum are as informed as one can get about the sport, and even here there is disagreement. Its why Carmelo can ostentatiously declare being ‘calm about VR’s future’ month’s before the public knew anything. I accept this is NOT an authentic competition. This doesn't stop me from enjoying and marveling at the sport, the technical aspects and the breathtaking abilities of all the riders (at least the ones they feature and we are lucky enough to get footage of), as was said in 'Faster' the movie, "anybody who can qualify for a MotoGP grid is a hero" of sorts, but I am under no illusion about the ........ < this here is the point that gets lost! We can agree all day that VR is awesome to watch on a bike, gregarious, jovial and fun, you can debate all his antics & mind-games are lighthearted and affective, and I would agree with you, I mean this honestly and wholeheartedly (I remember taking an elevator ride with VR given we stayed in the same hotel, as he came in after mid-night laughing about chicks and whatever fun party .... they just did, the thought occurred to me, this guy is a kid having fun and most likely is much like me who refuses to grow up, he is probably the guy I would have the most fun with if we hung out, that includes Nicky btw). I may like him for his personality, I simply don't believe the machinates of the League (that means Carmelo & Co.) are not inclined to exploit his brand, which to me translates into hard and fast tweaks to rules.
HEISMAN
Ha! Oh, it wouldn't help. I'm hopeless. :lol:
3495771366964503
With all respect Jum, you are off the mark, too obsessed with your own agenda probably.
What I want to discuss here is the role of the tires in a single tire supplier context as we have now: tires should become a commodity that do not cause advantage or disadvantage for any manufacturer, as it is in F1. That's what I was saying.
By the way I never agreed with your opinions, regarding Rossi in general and Rossi-Ducati in particular, but that's not relevant to this issue.
There was an Italian guy with us in the Austin party house. I told him ALL Italians have a pass on being VR fans. They earned it by birth and blood.
Ok buddy, lets shelve all that other stuff about DucatiVR... Yes, I agree with you, spec tires should not be detrimental to any one factory manufacture. The thing is, that IS EXACTLY WHY the League instituted to a single spec tire (Oh, you won't find it in any press release though). Come an my good friend, is it not obvious to you, or are you still of the opinion VR, being the only one to switch in 08, then shortly after the elimination of the 'tire war' resulting in a single tire supplier, then tire development changed causing ONE factory to be detrimentally affected! Is connecting the dots that difficult? I suppose you can make the case that allowing VR to switch (affectively killing the tire war) was done to HELP him (that is NOT HURT anybody else). Perhaps it was an unintended consequence, regardless, the results were the same. Bridgestone CHANGED development (away from what Ducati). That change was decidedly in favor of VR and the Jap manufactures and detrimental to Stoner and DUCATI. How in the world can we still argue this point? What are we going to ague next? Friend, like it or not (which I don't), believe it or not (which you seem not to) the series revolves around Valentino Rossi. It has since about 02-03 to present. I accept this reality, the difference between me and you is that we disagree in who this reality has affected the sport.
Just a quick note. While at AustinGP, we met up with a cool ... MF who is Curve's brotha from anotha motha. This dude was in charge of the Yamaha tent, which was totally bad .... He said on Friday he sold over 1000 VR hats totaling $70,000. By Sunday morning he sold out of VR hats, and said of all the sales he made over the weekend, VR .... was more than half of his entire income. He said had he brought more VR ...., that he would have doubled his total for the event. Which he estimated at about $215,000. The man sells! This is one vender tent, we might be able to imagine all other Dorna licensed merchandise venders at the track (of which there were many). I was mind-boggled since this was one time I could get a real sense from a personal contact as to the immense magnitude that VR represents where business men running a sport are MOST interested—the money. If there is still ANY DOUBT that the League’s schemes, ambitions, business dealing, changes to rules regardless of major or minor, are not overwhelming influenced by VR’s bottomless money making potential, then there is nothing I can ever say to convince you otherwise.
Friend, those of us here on the forum are as informed as one can get about the sport, and even here there is disagreement. Its why Carmelo can ostentatiously declare being ‘calm about VR’s future’ month’s before the public knew anything. I accept this is NOT an authentic competition. This doesn't stop me from enjoying and marveling at the sport, the technical aspects and the breathtaking abilities of all the riders (at least the ones they feature and we are lucky enough to get footage of), as was said in 'Faster' the movie, "anybody who can qualify for a MotoGP grid is a hero" of sorts, but I am under no illusion about the ........ < this here is the point that gets lost! We can agree all day that VR is awesome to watch on a bike, gregarious, jovial and fun, you can debate all his antics & mind-games are lighthearted and affective, and I would agree with you, I mean this honestly and wholeheartedly (I remember taking an elevator ride with VR given we stayed in the same hotel, as he came in after mid-night laughing about chicks and whatever fun party .... they just did, the thought occurred to me, this guy is a kid having fun and most likely is much like me who refuses to grow up, he is probably the guy I would have the most fun with if we hung out, that includes Nicky btw). I may like him for his personality, I simply don't believe the machinates of the League (that means Carmelo & Co.) are not inclined to exploit his brand, which to me translates into hard and fast tweaks to rules.
HEISMAN
Ha! Oh, it wouldn't help. I'm hopeless. :lol:
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Jum you do write a lot. I'm in awe.
I have always been in favor of some kind of control tire, and against the tire war, independently of whatever Rossi did (he played his game but so what, everybody did). I think tires should be a commodity with no real influence on the results of the competition, precisely because said competition is about determining a best rider and a best manufacturer, i.e. it is supposed to be among bike manufacturers and riders. Tires should have more or less the same influence as gasoline in it (those who want tire wars should invent a championship in which tire suppliers compete using control bikes and random riders...).
I have always been in favor of some kind of control tire, and against the tire war, independently of whatever Rossi did (he played his game but so what, everybody did). I think tires should be a commodity with no real influence on the results of the competition, precisely because said competition is about determining a best rider and a best manufacturer, i.e. it is supposed to be among bike manufacturers and riders. Tires should have more or less the same influence as gasoline in it (those who want tire wars should invent a championship in which tire suppliers compete using control bikes and random riders...).
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
J4rn0
If you go back to read my takes when they proposed the single tire, I was for it, I was in complete agreement with your description above. I think I might have been in the minority at the time, as most wanted the tire war to continue. Its precisely that the tire war favored the Michelin riders for most years, then add to that those who got the special Michelins that convinced me a real "spec tire" would level the playing field. But I didn't consider the cunning of the league to later make that "spec tire" a 'Rossi-spec tire'. This change in development became clear when Stoner started to have all kinds of issues with the revised tire in 08 and infamously requested to use the 07 spec. J4rno, when you say, I write a lot, what about that bothers you? Do you read it? What parts are the “fat” I should cut out?
3496231367000410
Jum you do write a lot. I'm in awe.
I have always been in favor of some kind of control tire, and against the tire war, independently of whatever Rossi did (he played his game but so what, everybody did). I think tires should be a commodity with no real influence on the results of the competition, precisely because said competition is about determining a best rider and a best manufacturer, i.e. it is supposed to be among bike manufacturers and riders. Tires should have more or less the same influence as gasoline in it (those who want tire wars should invent a championship in which tire suppliers compete using control bikes and random riders...).
If you go back to read my takes when they proposed the single tire, I was for it, I was in complete agreement with your description above. I think I might have been in the minority at the time, as most wanted the tire war to continue. Its precisely that the tire war favored the Michelin riders for most years, then add to that those who got the special Michelins that convinced me a real "spec tire" would level the playing field. But I didn't consider the cunning of the league to later make that "spec tire" a 'Rossi-spec tire'. This change in development became clear when Stoner started to have all kinds of issues with the revised tire in 08 and infamously requested to use the 07 spec. J4rno, when you say, I write a lot, what about that bothers you? Do you read it? What parts are the “fat” I should cut out?
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 307
- Location
- Up ..... Creek
What's odd is why, in '08, would Bridgestone build a tire at the detriment of Ducati, if the tire war was going on?
Obviously when Rossi requested to use Bridgestones, they would make a tire specific to his bike. The Japanese are smart enough to know histire wouldn't be applicable to the Duc. My guess is they still built one specific for the Duc, but they dropped the ball.
It has to be attributed to them not having enough resources dedicated to the effort and made some mistakes in their calculus equations.
Obviously when Rossi requested to use Bridgestones, they would make a tire specific to his bike. The Japanese are smart enough to know histire wouldn't be applicable to the Duc. My guess is they still built one specific for the Duc, but they dropped the ball.
It has to be attributed to them not having enough resources dedicated to the effort and made some mistakes in their calculus equations.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Jumkie
Sir, even assuming I was qualified (I am not), why on earth should I help you in communicating your wrong ideas more effectively?
3496271367001565
If you go back to read my takes when they proposed the single tire, I was for it, I was in complete agreement with your description above. I think I might have been in the minority at the time, as most wanted the tire war to continue. Its precisely that the tire war favored the Michelin riders for most years, then add to that those who got the special Michelins that convinced me a real "spec tire" would level the playing field. But I didn't consider the cunning of the league to later make that "spec tire" a 'Rossi-spec tire'. This change in development became clear when Stoner started to have all kinds of issues with the revised tire in 08 and infamously requested to use the 07 spec. J4rno, when you say, I write a lot, what about that bothers you? Do you read it? What parts are the “fat” I should cut out?
Sir, even assuming I was qualified (I am not), why on earth should I help you in communicating your wrong ideas more effectively?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
J4rn0
And I the opposite, because I have always baracked for the underdogs.
The tire war gave the smaller companies with the lower budgets the opportunity to compete by choosing the alternative. The day the alternative was taken away, what happened? Ducati became a POS, yes, but far more important to me, Kwaka immediately gave the big .... you to Ezy and pulled out, while Suzuki went back to one bike.
Now consider if Ezpeleta had allowed Ducati, Kawasaki and Suzuki to switch to Michelin. Imo we would have a far better competition than todays CRT grid filler. Aprilia and BMW might have even joined the series.
Why? Exactly as your new mate Gobmeier claims, with the right tire all sorts of weird and wonderfull creations can suddenly be more competitive. Its not then a simple matter of who spends most wins, or maybe who is most popular wins. But sadly no, we need control tires, control aluminium frames and suspensions and electronics etc etc so we can all marvel at the same top 4 bikes and riders finish every race in ................. the top 4! (excluding the occassional defective brake disc )
3496231367000410
Jum you do write a lot. I'm in awe.
I have always been in favor of some kind of control tire, and against the tire war, independently of whatever Rossi did (he played his game but so what, everybody did). I think tires should be a commodity with no real influence on the results of the competition, precisely because said competition is about determining a best rider and a best manufacturer, i.e. it is supposed to be among bike manufacturers and riders. Tires should have more or less the same influence as gasoline in it (those who want tire wars should invent a championship in which tire suppliers compete using control bikes and random riders...).
And I the opposite, because I have always baracked for the underdogs.
The tire war gave the smaller companies with the lower budgets the opportunity to compete by choosing the alternative. The day the alternative was taken away, what happened? Ducati became a POS, yes, but far more important to me, Kwaka immediately gave the big .... you to Ezy and pulled out, while Suzuki went back to one bike.
Now consider if Ezpeleta had allowed Ducati, Kawasaki and Suzuki to switch to Michelin. Imo we would have a far better competition than todays CRT grid filler. Aprilia and BMW might have even joined the series.
Why? Exactly as your new mate Gobmeier claims, with the right tire all sorts of weird and wonderfull creations can suddenly be more competitive. Its not then a simple matter of who spends most wins, or maybe who is most popular wins. But sadly no, we need control tires, control aluminium frames and suspensions and electronics etc etc so we can all marvel at the same top 4 bikes and riders finish every race in ................. the top 4! (excluding the occassional defective brake disc
)
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Bird, I doubt there can be magic tires that would transform any oddly designed bike in a winner; but assuming all MotoGP bikes are actually decently designed prototypes, the only alternative to a 'commodity' tire that doesn't suit nor penalize anybody, would be a custom tire developed specifically for each bike, to suit it perfectly -- now that would be probably ideal. But is that possible?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,467
- Location
- Dont Know
J4rn0
You mean like a carbon fibre stressed engine canted forward L4 screamer with desmo thingy valves shrieking down straights at 17000 rpm? Preposterous, must be a alloy framed mass centralised 75 degree V4. Convention people, we must comply with convention. This is no place for innovation.
You mean like a carbon fibre stressed engine canted forward L4 screamer with desmo thingy valves shrieking down straights at 17000 rpm? Preposterous, must be a alloy framed mass centralised 75 degree V4. Convention people, we must comply with convention. This is no place for innovation.
