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I agree that they have made changes. I never said Rossi and burgess are always right . They asked for a machine that works for them and have not yet recieved one. They are not engineers . They only give feedback and maybe give suggestion. Honda Just pulled out a new bike for a 10th or 2 imagine what they would do if they were as far off as ducati. I'm not saying they have done nothing I'm just stating my opinion which is that given the situation I think Ducati should do more if they want to challenge Honda and Yamaha .
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Fair enough, I was probably a bit harsh on you. My objection was mainly with your assertion that Ducati have not 'bend over backwards' for them, while I would argue that they could hardly have changed more on their bike during the last season. I have always been a big Ducati fan, by the way.
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The question I would like answered is this........
Have all the changes made in the last two seasons been implemented as a possible way to circumvent what has become, right or wrong, the biggest percieved design flaws with the bike ?
If they've been asking for extra injectors, redisigned engine cases/countershaft location etc and haven't, or won't be given it......then I could see that you'd try to come up with ideas to beat the same problem that they're going to let you try.......ie frame, swing arm, rider position.
None of that last stuff is viewed as being essential to the Ducati "brand" or "soul" in the same way that they seem hung up on the engine design.....according to reports and social media.
Unfortunately, unless someone here works in that garage, I'm probably not going to get the answer I'm after.......
Have all the changes made in the last two seasons been implemented as a possible way to circumvent what has become, right or wrong, the biggest percieved design flaws with the bike ?
If they've been asking for extra injectors, redisigned engine cases/countershaft location etc and haven't, or won't be given it......then I could see that you'd try to come up with ideas to beat the same problem that they're going to let you try.......ie frame, swing arm, rider position.
None of that last stuff is viewed as being essential to the Ducati "brand" or "soul" in the same way that they seem hung up on the engine design.....according to reports and social media.
Unfortunately, unless someone here works in that garage, I'm probably not going to get the answer I'm after.......
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If you remember back to the start of it all in 2010, Rossi and JB said many times they did not expect a Yamaha clone. The Ducati had potential they said, and Rossi would modify his style once his shoulder improved.
But in actual fact what they needed all along was a Yamaha clone.
You criticised Italy for their atrocities in Abyssinia and he countered that criticism by relating that Italy's actions were not exceptional; almost every major European power engaged in similar conduct. I don't see how that's 'blindingly jingoistic'. It's historical reality.
j4rno is regarded by the forum members as one of the best contributors to our forum - in fact, in my mind, he's the most valuable. His posts are balanced and rational.
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No one ever said the narrow engine would magically transform the bike but it would give a much larger amount of adjustability.
Go look at bike specs from 990 to now and tell me which bike still has a long wheelbase and low CG, then tell me which bike is shity in the corners and in agility change of direction. If the word of Aprillia, Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki who have all said the 90 degree engine is not optimal because of balance and the longer wheelbase required to fit the engine than I don't know what else to say to you. It seems your problem is with the yellow koolaid drinkers instead of Ducati who haven't delivered the one thing at a time as you say. The crew asked for the engine to be changed in January and it still hasn't been done. Back to the wheel base, maybe this simple picture will help you understand why a smaller engine is much easier to package and get a smaller wheelbase out of.
Well there you go, the real reason Ducati failed to change the engine.
http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20120814#pg19
Burgess described the notion that Ducati's 90 degree V-four is too long and bulky as "bunkum. The Honda is very close to a 90 degree. They told me the same nonsense when I went to Yamaha at the end of 2003. They said you'll never win with an in-line 4.
The bike was "about one percent off the mark" he said: while the engine was particularly good.
The killer had been the lack of meaningful improvement since the beginning of the year.
It isn't criticism, it is stating facts. Letting such actions ride because "almost every major European power engaged in similar conduct" is .........
Not in this case - everyone has their off days.
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It is evident that Burgess andf Rossi grossly misjudged Ducati's situation -- they assumed Stoner was only a very fast rider, but nothing phenomenal, and so wrongly concluded that the bike was probably not so bad, better than the 2003 Yamaha. Some hubris played there no doubt.
The big winner in all this is Stoner.
The big winner in all this is Stoner.
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Zoot I feel sorry for you, you should really stop digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. With that logic, in a MotoGP forum like this, in 2012, we could use the "indisputable facts" of the Japanese atrocities in Asia during WWII as arguments against Honda and Yamaha? WTF are you talking about???
I really hope you have the good sense to STFU about this subject forever.
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We'll see how far they get with that 90 as long as the sport is still moving towards high corner speeds and I'll take the Japanese word over JBs any day as they've no doubt actually tested it rather than speculating. It's only gonna get worst when they introduce a true rev limit, handling is gonna be that much more important. 1% sounds small, but isn't acceptable in any endeavor, imagine if 1% of the aircraft that took off every day never made it back. completely unacceptable.
Geonerd
Desert Varmint
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In other words, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it."
May as well kill the thread, all this discussion has been a pointless waste of energy...
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1% never made it back I'd be happy, means the engine was burning fuel. Everythings relative, depends on perspective.
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No, more like they tested it and it didn't work. Suzuki actually tested a 90V4 engine and they couldn't get the package to balance out, if the game was still point and shoot the bike would be much better. GP has been evolving to higher corner speeds and much more stable bikes, you can see that every race weekend.
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No 1% means 93 aircraft crashes a day.
Perspective, is that a nice way to spin losing so you can feel better about it.
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No. As Stiefel would say, those are some mad debating skills yo!
Not at all the same... you are grasping at straws. You should take your own advice, though, instead of continuing on trying to force your will on to others. You do love to tell people what to do, don't you?
