What's Wrong with the Ducati?

Zoot, do not provoke me,



As I said I come from a family of anti-fascists who fought it with arms and risked their lives to bring the regime down, so you cannot trap me into defending that -- but your argument is an abvious pretext, hopelessly far fetched and with the only aim of slinging mud against Italy. As such it is preposterous. One can find examples of that kind of "imperial" warfare (with similar 'victories' as well as burning defeats -- I assume you know everything about the famous colonial battle of Isandalwana, for instance, since you say you have an education in history).



You will excuse me for not pursuing this little OOT debate, but judging from the nonsense you said so far, I am obliged to doubt your knowledge, and certainly your judgement and general culture.You even confuse racial pride with national pride (I doubt that your education, if any, has led you to consider that Italians are a different race than other Europeans; now, that would really be amusing...)

Zootalaws said:

Ask J4rn0 - he was the one that brought Italy's fine martial history to a bike thread.

Click to expand...

Actually not, it was you... you do not even remember what you write. EOT

J4rn0 said:

Zoot, do not provoke me

Click to expand...

Ahh... the 'point the finger at the responder for your actions' technique... yeah, I am provoking you by replying to your post...



Stop making such blindingly jingoistic posts, then.

J4rn0 said:

Actually not, it was you... you do not even remember what you write. EOT

Click to expand...

Yeah, I forgot I wrote this. How remiss of me:

J4rn0 said:

My father was a partisan who fought the Nazis and Fascists in Italy and was wounded in battle.

Click to expand...

Zootalaws said:

Yeah, I forgot I wrote this. How remiss of me:

Click to expand...

That was a response to another post that brought it up. And you picked it up from there. Now, take my advice, stop making a fool of yourself.

Thank god the motogp summer break is shorter now

"[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]And you picked it up from there." yeah... it's hell, all this public forum posting ...., isn't it? People reading and responding to posts that they weren't even invited to... tell you what, there's this invention called 'private messaging' - it's for people that don't want their posts responded to.[/font]



All this talk of provocation, pushing your 'advice', you are heavy into this master/dominance model, aren't you?



If you post stupid ...., expect a stupid .... response.



If you post aggressively, expect aggressive posts in return.



The best you could do in defending yourself was to pick me up on the difference between race and nation... I'm so impressed.



And don't forget, you were the one that got all bent out of shape about an innocuous post on a motorcycle forum by someone making a joke - you need to chill it out a little rather than being your typical thin-skinned self.



Yes, I was slinging mud - not at Italy but at your prideful nature. I like Italy - one look at my car and motorcycle owning habits over the past 40 years, not to mention my film collection, my past girlfriend history and my personal dining choices would give the lie to any attempt to show me as being Italophobic.

J4rn0 said:

You are clearly an ....., perhaps (partially) excusable because of your obvious ignorance.

Insulting Italians and Ducati in a forum is easy, isn't it. I'm sure in person you would be more amenable to reason...

My father was a partisan who fought the Nazis and Fascists in Italy and was wounded in battle. I would be glad to teach you a lesson (in history, but not only) if there was the occasion.

Tip: come to Misano or Mugello or any race in Italy, we'll meet and have some fun.

Click to expand...

All anyone has to do is go back through history and see what Italians have brought to the world. Radio, Ferrari/Lamborghini, more fine art than you can shake a stick at, Da Vinci, etc. The list goes on and on. I know Ducati will make a comeback with a focus that only Rossi quitting would make happen. Shame it has to be the way it is but...that is how it goes I guess.

Zootalaws said:

"[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]And you picked it up from there." yeah... it's hell, all this public forum posting ...., isn't it? People reading and responding to posts that they weren't even invited to... tell you what, there's this invention called 'private messaging' - it's for people that don't want their posts responded to.[/font]



All this talk of provocation, pushing your 'advice', you are heavy into this master/dominance model, aren't you?



If you post stupid ...., expect a stupid .... response.



If you post aggressively, expect aggressive posts in return.



The best you could do in defending yourself was to pick me up on the difference between race and nation... I'm so impressed.



And don't forget, you were the one that got all bent out of shape about an innocuous post on a motorcycle forum by someone making a joke - you need to chill it out a little rather than being your typical thin-skinned self.



Yes, I was slinging mud - not at Italy but at your prideful nature. I like Italy - one look at my car and motorcycle owning habits over the past 40 years, not to mention my film collection, my past girlfriend history and my personal dining choices would give the lie to any attempt to show me as being Italophobic.

Click to expand...

You do not follow my advice to stop, so you are making more and more a fool of yourself. You lost a good occasion to stay quiet when you decided to post offensively about Italy and Italians, do not be surprised if you get kicked in return. Learn the lesson. Bye...



In case you don't understand what the lesson is about: do not say anything offensive about any national, ethnic or religious group. Whatever you say in that way is bound to be wrong, makes a fool of you and will provoke a legitimate reaction from the people you insult.

Zootalaws said:

Ask J4rn0 - he was the one that brought Italy's fine martial history to a bike thread.

Click to expand...

Actually........it was me, because of this.

Noodles Romanoff said:

When Field Marshall Kesselring was asked what resources would be required to halt the Allied advance through italy, he replied that the answer to the question depended on whether the Italians had capitulated, or were still fighting alongside the Wermacht.



If the Italians had capitulated by theat point in time, he estimated that 10 or 12 divisions should suffice.



If the Italians were still fighting alongside them, a minimum of 20 to 25 divisions would be required.







"What's wrong with the Ducati ?"



.........It's Italian.

Audi will be throwing good money after bad during the short term.

Click to expand...

I used the example to imply that the, logical, methodical, rigid and well ordered German approach to all things were up against it when they had to work with the off the cuff, flamoyant, passionate and emotional approach to things that Italians take.

ie, Audi are going to have their work cut out changing the way Ducati operate........in the short term.



Humour went wrong....









As for saying Ducati will be back bigger and better now that Rossi has quit, that's pretty funny......nothing changed when the other 21 riders quit or were disposed of.







And for modern history lessons and small Italian manufacturers.....one word........Cagiva.



The only Italian manufacturer to achieve anything in the premier class was MV Augusta........and that was eons ago.









This interview with the guy behind the Attack CRT bike makes Ducatis small manufacturer argument look pretty lame. I accept there is a vast difference between the cost of a CRT bike and a full factory prototype, but having said that, there is a vast difference between their respective budgets and resources.



Also, Attack have gotten close to making the 107% cut off in four months.



What have Ducati done in 9 years.......especially if you remove Stoners talent in 07 ?



The last line in the interview is something Ducati could do well to start applying to their racing effort.









Team owner Richard Stanboli had taken on the mountainous task of building an in-house frame run with a Kawasaki engine to compete in the CRT category as a wildcard at the U.S. Grand Prix. A shakedown test had been planned the weekend before at a local Californian circuit, yet had to be cancelled due to last minute vendor problems.



This meant that Rapp and the Attack Performance team only got their first outing on the four-month-old project during the first practice session at Laguna Seca. And despite taking large strides in every session with regards to lap times, they unfortunately could not make the 107 per cent marker off the top time needed to qualify for the event. The team will however be back at Indianapolis in just over two weeks time, and Stanboli is confident his team will fair better there.



Stanboli commented: "I was disappointed that we could not make the show. We were let down by a couple of vendors and that put us behind our very tight development schedule. We had no choice but to cancel an important first test with Bridgestone and hoped for the best. Preparation is the key to success and there is no room for hope in racing. We went to Laguna blind and that will not happen again. We will be ready for Indy."



He also remained rather philosophical about the whole thing, quoting a phrase from Henry Ford: "Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently."

They need to start treating the cause instead of the symptoms. They are going about this like a mechanic instead of an engineer, they need to know why it doesn't work before they can fix it properly otherwise they'll keep having the same problems.

I told you why ...... VSG.

J4rn0 said:

...when you decided to post offensively about Italy and Italians

Click to expand...

When did I do that? Read it back - I posted fact. If you took offence about fact, you need to keep away from discussions of history or you are going to be perpetually in a snit.



OK, you took offence - but that's the thing about offence, you need to take it, it isn't something I can give you.



As to your threats and warnings, I don't really find the need to pay them any mind. Keep them for someone you think can intimidate.

hawkdriver said:

They need to start treating the cause instead of the symptoms. They are going about this like a mechanic instead of an engineer, they need to know why it doesn't work before they can fix it properly otherwise they'll keep having the same problems.

Click to expand...

So far the theory list has been - rider error, too stiff a chassis, side-loading the forks, seating position, engine location and COG, VSG, swingarm location, wheelbase, power delivery, rake/trail not allowing the tyre to come up to temperature, excessive wear on the front tyre, loading the rear tyre, not enough grip on the rear tyre, spinning the rear causing delamination of the tyre... I'm sure there's more.



The only consistent problem over the last 3-4 years is that Ducati aren't able to resolve the problems. The alloy chassis may be the answer, but they know little about alloy spar chassis and are about 25 years behind the Japanese - it is going to take some time to make it work.



They have a lot of experience with the carbon chassis, but seem to have consigned 10 years of data to the bin.



They have a lot of experience with the L-4, it puts out a lot of power, there are moves afoot to bring the induction and injection up to snuff, that may help.



Regardless, without a rider that can give them the good feedback and a will in the factory to take that feedback and make it work, they are destined to stay in pretty much the same place they are now.

Zootalaws said:

So far the theory list has been - rider error ( tested .... fail ) , too stiff a chassis ( tested...... fail ) , side-loading the forks ( tested .... fail ), seating position ( tested .... fail ), engine location ( tested ..... fail ) and COG (tested ...... fail ) , VSG ( NOT TESTED!!!!!! ) , swingarm location ( tested ..... fail ), wheelbase ( tested ..... fail ) , power delivery ( t ....f ) , rake/trail ( t .... f ) not allowing the tyre to come up to temperature ( t ......f ), excessive wear on the front tyre ( TF ), loading the rear tyre (tf) , not enough grip on the rear tyre ( tf ), spinning the rear causing delamination of the tyre ( tf ) ... I'm sure there's more.

Click to expand...

At least the effects of VSG have never been tested! .....

A lot of folks seem to think it was the frame. From what I read it seems that the riders can't get the bike to turn in fast enough and if they open the gas when neccesary to do fast laps the bike runs wide on exit. I'm not engineer but to me it seems like they need more weight up front. Personally I think the problem in the L config of the engine. If they see the I4 and 72deg Honda and 65deg (I think) Suzuki turning well and not having these issues then why not try a smaller angle that allows more movement and weigh up front? That is what Rossi/burg have been asking for all along. Which is why it confuses me when folks say "ducati has bent over backwards" lol. How many chassis did dani p try in 09? Like 15 Or so. That is bending over backwards.

R6Ryder said:

A lot of folks seem to think it was the frame. From what I read it seems that the riders can't get the bike to turn in fast enough and if they open the gas when neccesary to do fast laps the bike runs wide on exit. I'm not engineer but to me it seems like they need more weight up front. Personally I think the problem in the L config of the engine. If they see the I4 and 72deg Honda and 65deg (I think) Suzuki turning well and not having these issues then why not try a smaller angle that allows more movement and weigh up front? That is what Rossi/burg have been asking for all along. Which is why it confuses me when folks say "ducati has bent over backwards" lol. How many chassis did dani p try in 09? Like 15 Or so. That is bending over backwards.

Click to expand...

Rossi and Burgess have been asking for every damn single thing on that bike to be redesigned, modified and replaced, including a switch from a carbon fiber subframe to a conventional alloy twin beam frame. Ducati have changed that bike to the point where the only way I could still recognize it was by the freaking color, all in one season. They have implemented changes at such a high rate that even if they'd found a solution, they would not have noticed. All acting according to the demands of Rossi and Burgess. You'll have to forgive them for re-evaluating the usefulness of that kind of chaotic development.



Don't try to invent a history wherein Rossi and Burgess knew what was wrong with the bike all along but Ducati did not listen. Rossi and Burgess had no clue, asked for every change they could think off and Ducati made the mistake of trusting the development capabilities of those two and try to deliver as much as they could.

stiefel said:

Rossi and Burgess have been asking for every damn single thing on that bike to be redesigned, modified and replaced, including a switch from a carbon fiber subframe to a conventional alloy twin beam frame. Ducati have changed that bike to the point where the only way I could still recognize it was by the freaking color, all in one season. They have implemented changes at such a high rate that even if they'd found a solution, they would not have noticed. All acting according to the demands of Rossi and Burgess. You'll have to forgive them for re-evaluating the usefulness of that kind of chaotic development.



Don't try to invent a history wherein Rossi and Burgess knew what was wrong with the bike all along but Ducati did not listen. Rossi and Burgess had no clue, asked for every change they could think off and Ducati made the mistake of trusting the development capabilities of those two and try to deliver as much as they could.

Click to expand...

Pure dribble

Have Ducati issued any rebuttals of Burgess accusations? No. What have they done? Tried to hire a former Yamaha engineer. The one piece of that development team they didn't have. If that doesn't speak volumes, if that's not good enough for you, nothing will be.

ROCKGOD01 said:

All anyone has to do is go back through history and see what Italians have brought to the world.

Click to expand...

This man has had an extraordinary impact on my life. If it wasn't for Marconi, my mother would not have met my father, and (though unrelated to this) the internet may not have existed.