What's Wrong with the Ducati?

we got enough backing it in threads

Zootalaws,



I am interested in your take on this paragraph in Ducati's press release about Rossi leaving.



Racing has always been in Ducati’s DNA, and now more than ever, it is integral to the Borgo Panigale company’s product development and image. AUDI shares Ducati’s strategic approach and agrees with its growing commitment to competition.



Why did they not say that racing is about winning and winning only? The only thing I could come up with is they would have had to say "now that Rossi has left we can concentrate on winning again" which obviously under the circumstances would have been a little rude!



I think product development and image is basically what I was saying and you were claim was naive and ignorant. Well it seems that perhaps I know a little more about racing than you do. Embarrassing for you considering your 20 years of actual race experience as opposed to my bench racing experience.

Mental Anarchist said:

Zootalaws,



I am interested in your take on this paragraph in Ducati's press release about Rossi leaving.



Racing has always been in Ducati’s DNA, and now more than ever, it is integral to the Borgo Panigale company’s product development and image. AUDI shares Ducati’s strategic approach and agrees with its growing commitment to competition.



Why did they not say that racing is about winning and winning only? The only thing I could come up with is they would have had to say "now that Rossi has left we can concentrate on winning again" which obviously under the circumstances would have been a little rude!



I think product development and image is basically what I was saying and you were claim was naive and ignorant. Well it seems that perhaps I know a little more about racing than you do. Embarrassing for you considering your 20 years of actual race experience as opposed to my bench racing experience.

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Warning: Promotional Pamphlet fluff/hype do not always align with reality.

Keshav said:

Warning: Promotional Pamphlet fluff/hype do not always align with reality.

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I wasn't talking about Rossi!

So who gets fired at Ducati !

povol said:

So who gets fired at Ducati !

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Professor X

You

xx CURVE xx said:

Professor X

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You would think so, especially after it was reported that he said he didn't care if he lost his position at Ducati and just wanted to make his bike better when talking with the former Yamaha engineer.

When Field Marshall Kesselring was asked what resources would be required to halt the Allied advance through italy, he replied that the answer to the question depended on whether the Italians had capitulated, or were still fighting alongside the Wermacht.



If the Italians had capitulated by theat point in time, he estimated that 10 or 12 divisions should suffice.



If the Italians were still fighting alongside them, a minimum of 20 to 25 divisions would be required.







"What's wrong with the Ducati ?"



.........It's Italian.







Audi will be throwing good money after bad during the short term.

Zootalaws said:

Then your point is lost on me.

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Z-Man, Pov got it and made a salient rebuttal... should be clear as mud!

It is... I wouldn't have been surprised to see a 9-year veteran, even one that never rode 250 or Moto2, beating a rookie.



I am surprised that Bradl, a rookie, has the same number of points as a nine-year veteran on a factory ride...



So now I won't be surprised at whichever rookie hands him his hat next year... Hayden's just taking the money - he gave up racing a long time ago.

Zootalaws said:

It is... I wouldn't have been surprised to see a 9-year veteran, even one that never rode 250 or Moto2, beating a rookie.



I am surprised that Bradl, a rookie, has the same number of points as a nine-year veteran on a factory ride...



So now I won't be surprised at whichever rookie hands him his hat next year... Hayden's just taking the money - he gave up racing a long time ago.

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Zootalaws said:

It is... I wouldn't have been surprised to see a 9-year veteran, even one that never rode 250 or Moto2, beating a rookie.



I am surprised that Bradl, a rookie, has the same number of points as a nine-year veteran on a factory ride...



So now I won't be surprised at whichever rookie hands him his hat next year... Hayden's just taking the money - he gave up racing a long time ago.

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If that is true what does it say about VR as Hayden has often been quicker and he isnt taking tens of millions.

This is from an old engineering text and is what's wrong with Ducati and their so called DNA

"Good designers are known as such for the ruthlessness with which they appraise their

own schemes as for the power of their imagination in producing them - indeed, a fertile

mind has no hesitation in scrapping its product if it finds it inadequate; it is only the designer

to whom an idea comes rarely who must make it work at all costs."

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The Germans will fix this

Only if they remove the the people in Ducati that are causing the inhibition regarding development.



Comparing rookies and the like to Hayden/Rossi on the duc is like comparing a rookie tennis player to Nadal/Federer......if the rookie had something resembling a tennis raquet, while Nadal and Federer were forced to use golf clubs.





There have been 24 riders throw a leg over that pile of junk (albeit, some of them very briefly) in nine years. And that's just the factory team.....I didn't include the sattelite teams.



Out of the 24, one bloke did something with it, for one year. After that, no matter what he did, the results tapered off year after year until he had enough and left.



He was then told through the media that he should thank them ! Another talented rider was shipped off to the shrink.



How anyone can use any riders performance on the Ducati as an argument against them is beyond me.





What Bradl's performance (for example) shows is that if you have something that resembles a motorcycle, with good people around you, then talent can perform at or above the expected level.



What Ducati shows is the exact opposite.



Simple.

Noodles Romanoff said:

Only if they remove the the people in Ducati that are causing the inhibition regarding development.



Comparing rookies and the like to Hayden/Rossi on the duc is like comparing a rookie tennis player to Nadal/Federer......if the rookie had something resembling a tennis raquet, while Nadal and Federer were forced to use golf clubs.





There have been 24 riders throw a leg over that pile of junk (albeit, some of them very briefly) in nine years. And that's just the factory team.....I didn't include the sattelite teams.



Out of the 24, one bloke did something with it, for one year. After that, no matter what he did, the results tapered off year after year until he had enough and left.



He was then told through the media that he should thank them ! Another talented rider was shipped off to the shrink.



How anyone can use any riders performance on the Ducati as an argument against them is beyond me.





What Bradl's performance (for example) shows is that if you have something that resembles a motorcycle, with good people around you, then talent can perform at or above the expected level.



What Ducati shows is the exact opposite.



Simple.

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Precisely.

Any chance of having other TIRE manufacturers back in motogp? Don't seem like Ducati has had the capability to build bike around tires, so maybe if michelin/kumho/goodyear/yokohama/dunlop/hankook/hoosier or any other tire manufacturer can build a tire around their bike philosophy, they can have something akin to their 03-06 performance?



Ok, just a pipe dream . Just send another rider's career to the meat grinder

Noodles Romanoff said:

When Field Marshall Kesselring was asked what resources would be required to halt the Allied advance through italy, he replied that the answer to the question depended on whether the Italians had capitulated, or were still fighting alongside the Wermacht.



If the Italians had capitulated by theat point in time, he estimated that 10 or 12 divisions should suffice.



If the Italians were still fighting alongside them, a minimum of 20 to 25 divisions would be required.







"What's wrong with the Ducati ?"



.........It's Italian.

Audi will be throwing good money after bad during the short term.

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You are clearly an ....., perhaps (partially) excusable because of your obvious ignorance.

Insulting Italians and Ducati in a forum is easy, isn't it. I'm sure in person you would be more amenable to reason...

My father was a partisan who fought the Nazis and Fascists in Italy and was wounded in battle. I would be glad to teach you a lesson (in history, but not only) if there was the occasion.

Tip: come to Misano or Mugello or any race in Italy, we'll meet and have some fun.

It was a poor attempt at using black humour in an effort to highlight how difficult the Italians can be to work work with.



......even if it is with other Italians.



Appologies, I in no- way meant to make humorous the cost in lives that fought against the terrible regimes, or the apalling situation or politics of the time.



Again, appologies.



I'd like to think I'm not an ...............jst that I occasionaly make bad judgement calls.

Noodles Romanoff said:

It was a poor attempt at using black humour in an effort to highlight how difficult the Italians can be to work work with.



......even if it is with other Italians.



Appologies, I in no- way meant to make humorous the cost in lives that fought against the terrible regimes, or the apalling situation or politics of the time.



Again, appologies.



I'd like to think I'm not an ...............jst that I occasionaly make bad judgement calls.

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Fair enough, but again, why do you think the Italians are especially difficult to work with? More than, say, the Spanish or the French or the Chinese or the Indians? Do you have first hand experience, or is it just the usual silly prejudices?

Passion that leads to single mindedness.



When it works, it works well.........when it doesn't.......



How long did Cagiva percivere with their ideas ? Turns out with a few tweaks in a direction that they hesitated to go with for a long time, they had a decent bike there all along.



For all the suposition and wondering as to the faults with the Ducati, it seems the biggest issue is the packaging of the engine, and the location of things such as the countershaft sprocket.



The notion that because they are a "small manufacturer" and find it difficult to quickly produce modified/new components seems a little rich when the Attack CRT bike knocked up a new frame in around four weeks.



Sure, they aren't in the same league as the other CRT bikes, but taken in context........



I for one didn't expect Rossi and JB to go out and win like they did with Yamaha, but they are no fools and it seemed reasonable to expect that the thing would progress significantly.



Somewhere in the red team, someone isn't listening........or being stubborn.Who they are, or where the fault/blame lies, I have no idea.None-the-less, if you remove any aligience or hatred towards the rider or crew chief, comments like "We told them what the problem is, but...." seem rather telling. The line could be taken that he was/is trying to absolve himself of blame.



.....I take the other line, that above all else he wanted/wants to be up the front or winning.



I am not a Rossi "fan", but see it as a shame for Ducati in the sense that Rossi and JB were to them as Lawson was to Cagiva.



Opportunity missed.



Footnote. JB and Rossi aren't without there own single mindedness in their ideas, so maybe it was a case of an irresistable force meeting an immovable object.

J4rn0 said:

Fair enough, but again, why do you think the Italians are especially difficult to work with? More than, say, the Spanish or the French or the Chinese or the Indians? Do you have first hand experience, or is it just the usual silly prejudices?

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The post prior to the one to which you replied is more relevant ie the control tyre, and also the rules being changed so that (like ferrari in F1) ducati can no longer for practical purposes build a more powerful engine. An equipe the size of ducati winning races, let alone a world championship, against the likes of honda and yamaha remains a remarkable achievement.