What's Wrong with the Ducati?

Great article on the Duc issue.. Rossi and Nick has no chance on that pos



http://manziana.moto..._T_KV0.facebook







This article has been written yesterday. Today have been evolutions refering Rossi's contract.

This article will highlight some facts that occurred between 2011 and 2012, relating to the negotiation of the purchase of Ducati by Audi.

A lot has already written about this, but some elements appear to be inconsistent, so I thought it was worth exploring it in more detail. So what are we investigating? Mainly we are trying to understand why Ducatiseems not to have been able to follow the development program and steps envisioned for 2012 with the new GP12.

Obviously the argument rests on assumptions, but based on facts that give sense to this article, also considering the financial reasons we will touch (the property switch of Ducati), I turned to a more experienced friend in this area: an economics teacher who teaches in a school in Switzerland.

Has the transfer of ownership of Ducati caused lags in the GP program? This is what I will try to demonstrate, quoting as usual the links that support my statements, in order to bring coherence to my hypothesis.

The story might begin when the investing group Investindustrial of Andrea Bonomi, owner of Ducatishares, decides that the time is ripe for action. In August 2011 he instructs Goldman Sachs to review the value of Ducati if it were to enter into the Hong Kong stock market (a place that has previously welcomed luxury brands where they can be listed with relative ease). In this way, in addition to an evaluation of the market value of the company, he opened the door to the possible fresh capital to proceed to new investments and the broadening of Ducati activities.

http://www.motori24....cati-rumors.php

Meanwhile, the 2011 Ducati MotoGP season ends as we know, with the high expectations set for January 2012 for the presentation of the brand new GP12 in Madonna di Campiglio. But the bike, the day of its unveil isn’t there!

Filippo Preziosi, then, made these remarks:

"What we are going to face is very challenging. From the concept of a bike to get to the first race it usually takes 2 years, our path will instead go into hyper-drive, we are confident of success. It is a courageous choice, but not impossible and Ducati has already proven that it can do it in the past. "

Asked if the bike that would be seen in Sepang would be a “workshop: bike, he said:

"No, I expect that it will be the base bike, after that we will introduce innovations in the course of the season but we won’t change it too much. During winter testing we define a sound basis so not to races as tests as it happened last year. From this point of view, the regulation will give us a hand, allowing some additional days of testing with the official riders."



http://www.gpone.com/index.php/201201115837/Preziosi-non-sara-la-moto-di-Valentino.html



The new GP12 made its first appearance at the first Sepang tests, conducted from January 29 to February 1, 2012.

What is new is the addition to the aluminum frame (developed after the Valencia test in November 2011) is the tilted back engine in order to find a better balance of the bike.

The results are not exciting, even though the first tests showed them to be less than a second slower than the opponents. Considering that the Japanese competitors had grown their projects in years of experience, crafted them through years of victories, while the Ducati project is an “infant” of just 3 months, the gap could have been acceptable. What didn’t seem right were other things: the engine, that now is inclined (as I pointed out in other articles) appeared to have a modified oil pan with an oil recovery pipe on the sump. My hypothesis was that it served to lubricate a bank of the Desmo engine left starving for oil because of it’s new location.

It’s probably correct to assume that steps preprogrammed by Preziosi included the construction of a new engine with the same “new” 90 degree angle titled backwards but with a new bottom housing that would bring it back in the proper position, avoiding the use of the provisional oil recovery pipe









(and also - as pointed out recently by Burgess - a different position of the gearbox and therefore a new location of the pinion shaft to facilitate the movement of the motor inside the chassis).

The second test took place at Sepang in late February and early March 2012. The thing that struck me most was a comment of Guido Meda (Italian Moto GP commentator) to my article where he stated that the GP12 had not returned to Bologna, but remained in Sepang all the time! He also added that there were only 2 GP12 bikes, those brought to Sepang.

It seems strange that at the second Sepang test the only things that was teste was a new traction control software, already tested by Hector Berbara, Karela Abraham and Franco Battaini earlier during the Jerez test in February 2012. The photos and news on the progress of the development of the GP12, which ran at Spang showed only 2 attempts to change the dummy fuel tank, to improve the balance of a still underdeveloped GP12. Apparently they had no other updates.

But let’s return to the ownership of Ducati: in February 2012 Ducati knew its market value and in March 2012 it was announced that Audi had a purchase option on Ducati since February 2012. Il Sole 24 Ore (the main Italian financial newspaper) reported that the right of first refusal would be valid until April 2012.



[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif] http://www.motori24.ilsole24ore.com/Industria-Protagonisti/2012/03/ducati-audi.php[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

On March 23, 2012 at the Jerez tests what developments had been made by Ducati? Apparently no one considered the complaints of Valentino Rossi and discussions about the correct set-up after disappointing time trials.[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Summary: apparently between February 29th, and March 23rd, 2012, in Sepang, Ducati didn’t bring anything new apparently to try and reduce its gap from the Japanese competitors. What is the reason?[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Back to my idea that Audi, after getting the right of first refusal on the purchase of Ducati, deliberately asked Ducati to freeze all spending not related to current development or investment, to have time to audit the accounts and corporate reserves until it’s mid-April decision to buy or not.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

April 8, 2012 saw the first race of the season in Qatar. Rossi almost retired, complaining he could almost not ride the bike. The objection is that "... this is the Ducati you wanted ..." to which he replies:[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

"that isn’t exactly true, I gave directions on the problems, and indicated the areas of intervention. I unfortunately can not solve them alone, I’m not an engineer. "[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://www.gpone.com...che-volevo.html[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

I interpret the statement as a not-so-gentle "push" from Rossi to Ducati “immobility”, that is in turn purchased officially in April 18, 2012 by Audi. At this point it’s likely that finally Filippo Preziosi got the green light to resume the planned development.[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://www.motori24....cordo-fatto.php[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Meanwhile AMG, which over the years had woven with Ducati "marketing" collaboration plans, announces the immediate termination of these relationships (remember that Mercedes controls AMG and they also were rumored to be one of the companies interested in acquiring Ducati, the same rumors even claimed some few months earlier that they were going to work together with Ducati for the development of the new GP engine ...).[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://www.automoto....-da-ducati.html[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

During testing at Estoril on May 7, 2012 (canceled due to bad weather) Preziosi issued these statements:[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

"We wanted to experiment bike set-ups with Nicky, and at Mugello we should have some new components to improve critical aspects," and again: "as for the engine we wanted to try some internal changes to improve power delivery."[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://www.motogp.co...ress conference[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

He added that: "... it is not a test for the sake of testing, it’s part of a larger project. This is only the first step in a series of changes that are planned over the next three tests at Mugello (May, June and July) and that will be dedicated to improving handling ... ", and concluded: "Therefore our goal is to arrive to Laguna Seca with a working package that we hope will be a significant step forward. We have different things we're working on, we are sure that some of these will produce an increase of feel because they’re really pretty standard fixes. The trick is to do them right, make them work, but they are well known solutions ... In the meantime we would like to punch a new engine at Silverstone with the new specifications to improve handling. "[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

What is Preziosi referring to? Probably to change in the engine and external components of the engine, as said in an interview with Neil Spalding on May 7, 2012. Spalding assumed that this is a new dual injection, that could work with the new generation of traction control (such as the Japanese have), able to "cut" the power by dosing the inflow of the fuel/air mixture rather than interrupting the spark, stopping the engine to generate additional ignitions.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Let’s recall the observations of Valentino Rossi about the impossibility of being able to accelerate when at full lean, contrary to what we already know the Japanese bikes can do, whilst complaining about the excessive aggressiveness of the power delivery at the slightest touch of the accelerator, which in turn, according Vittoriano Guareschi and Valentino Rossi, would also be the cause for the the "famous" under-steer the bike from Bologna has developed.[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

May 24, 2012: http://www.gpone.com...-e-Burgess.html[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

During the 24 May 2012 testing at Mugello, an aluminum swingarm was introduced to improve the feeling of the riders coming out of corners making for a better power transfer to the ground out of corners. Strangely Vittoriano Guareschi, during the race at Barcelona on June 3, 2012, speaking of the future test programmed for Aragon on June 6 2012, confirmed the test of the aluminum swingarm "thought since the Sepang test (!)" that occurred in March. These words are part of an interview with the Italian channel Mediaset 2 during free practice of the Catalan race. The new swingarm was however not used in the race.[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Summary: from March 3, 2012 (second Sepang test) to 24 May 2012, Ducati only made one aluminum swingarm? This is not likely: how can it take almost 3 months to put on the track only a new aluminum swingarm, when it took about 2 ½ months to deploy two new frames (this time is calculated from the from the design and implementation of the two frames after the analysis of data from the Valencia test concluded on 8 November 2011 to them being put on the track in Jerez by Carlos Checa for a test on January 16, to the shipment of the bikes to Sepang for the first test of 29 January 2012)[/font]



[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Returning to more recent times, the first Grand Prix of the Netherlands 30 June 2012 a rumor spread that Valentino Rossi had received a visit from some Audi executives saying that they would be honored to continue to work with the pilot, and highlighted the potential offered by the new property. A statement of a close friend of Valentino Rossi spread at the same time, showing that the alleged confidences made to him by "Doctor", whereby the Audi bosses had made him an offer defined as "irresponsible". On that occasion, many people felt entitled to interpret this statement as a monetary stockpile of astronomical proportions, even more than 12 million per season, higher that what Rossi perceived by Ducati (by its sponsor), the same amount when he was racing for Yamaha. Later statemnts made at Laguna Seca (July 29, 2012) clarify that the offer of Ducati was lower than that of 2011 but still higher than Yamaha’s.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

After the race at Mugello (15 July 2012) the tests scheduled by Filippo Preziosi took place. The tests saw Nicky Hayden riding on Monday, and Rossi on Tuesday with his session interrupted because of faulty hardware. Let’s remember that Preziosi on May 7th announced the arrival at the Grand Prix at Laguna Seca (July 29, 2012) of a final step, hoping for significant changes in performance of the GP12.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

At Mugello Preziosi said that he had been working on a new weight distribution, changing the location of some units (placing them on the front) and modifying the design of the tank (introduced with the new GP12, positioning it as the Japanese bikes, under the saddle).[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

In the weeks before there was great talk about the future choices of Rossi with his possible renewal with Audi or its transition to his old flame, the Yamaha M1. In my article I expressed the opinion that the decision "would be made after testing at Mugello”, where he would presumably try “the new weight distribution, as well as the new injection tied to the traction control." "Bad luck" happened, and the test fell through, because - according to Filippo Preziosi - a hardware failure related to the new unit.[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://www.gpone.com...-dimezzato.html[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

"It was a test virtually cut in half" – he admitted, and continues: - "It was a hardware problem, a new component of the unit. Now we will do all the necessary analysis to find out for sure what happened. "[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

How does this change your plans for Laguna Seca?[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

"In the United States we’ll punch in a new engine, the fourth, as programmed. This engine will be designed to fit the new mechanical components. Some will be equipped immediately; others will come in the next races, when we are sure they represent a real improvement. "[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

We will develop novel strategies that the new electronic control unit allows us, in order to improve the drivability".[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

As the test went wrong, in Laguna there were no steps introduced as originally desired by Preziosi.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Vittoriano Guareschi, during an interview at Italian TV Mediaset during practice, said that the engine had been punched in as required and ready to accommodate components planned for Laguna, but that would just have to happen in Indianapolis.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

In the meantime, Gabriele del Torchio went to Laguna Seca with the intent to make an offer toValentino Rossi to be stay in Ducati. Rossi reveals that the offer is less than 2012 but higher than Yamaha’s, reserving a week of time to decide, announcing that he would go on vacation (Ibiza, some supposed).[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

From the race at Laguna a week has passed and meanwhile rumors of seeing Masao Furusawa in Italy abounded, including a visit to the factory Ducati as his expressed desire for a long time. According to rumors in the Spanish press (Solomoto) and Italian (Motosprint) who publish this news in strange identical times, Furuswa after a chat with Preziosi, reserves a period of reflection to decide whether to collaborate on the development of this GP12.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

In conclusion, currently Valentino Rossi has not yet given an answer, which I expect will arrive in Indianapolis after trying the final version of the GP12, with double injection (as described above) suggested by Spalding and that should help to solve the specific problems of power delivery when cornering.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Putting together all the facts described above (easily proven by the links) I confirm my hypothesis (already formulated months ago), the GP12 is a "traveling workshop", a "work in progress", of which, Audi's entrance to the stage blocked all development plans thought by Preziosi: in particular, this stop occurred between the Sepang test 1 (end of January 2012) and the Qatar test (beginning April 2012).[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

The stop of the GP12 program depended on developments from the need of the prospective purchaser to verify the accounts of Ducati, its activities and investments in current and future, in particular the Racing Department and future strategies.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

This delay was added to a project that was 3 months old, that was already a year behind the competition that had been working on these new kind of components since 2011. Neil Spalding reports in his article that Honda needed 4 years and about 40 frames to make its bike competitive and balanced (the same goes for Yamaha). [/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

Ducati, at the time, tried to play a "wildcard", from a more flexible frame (Estoril 2011) to a change in the whole project "in progress" and was used in the future GP12 "first version" equipped with a 800cc motor, until the adoption of the first aluminum frame occurred in Aragon 2011. That was not the perimeter frame, but a “corrected” version, with connections between the subframe and engine no longer in carbon fiber but in aluminum. For details, see my articles in 2011 describing the evolution of the Ducati GP11 since Valentino Rossi got on it:[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

http://manziana.moto...n_due_parti.php[/font]

[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

On 4 September 2011 in Misano, prying eyes photographed a project on paper made from mechanical cad cam in the hands of a Ducati mechanic, in which we could recognizes the future perimeter frame that was released officially in November of 2011 during testing at Valencia.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

The events that took place from Valencia onwards, are outlined in this article that I have been working on for days, trying to put pieces of the puzzle together, to reach a solid theory about what is happening.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

What will Valentino Rossi do? If Audi could not convince him explaining the future plans, he’ll choose a safe passage to Yamaha, not without danger because of Jorge Lorenzo being in great shape with the status of "first rider" having to thake on the role of "squire". Meanwhile, it has been said that he has been seen in Amsterdam, while he was in Ibiza to celebrate the 40th birthday of a mechanic of the Stefan Bradl LCR team, together with his close friend Fonsi Nieto, who also owns a villa on the island just like Rossi.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

I realize that, despite my attempt at synthesis, this piece has a length greater than desired: nevertheless, the complexity of the facts has prompted the composition of several elements omitting those that are not essential.[/font][font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

The Lord of the rings (4 rings) proved to be the "villain" of the story, but for reasons of force majeure. In my opinion.[/font]



[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

I'd like to thank Leoallafila for the translation[/font]



[font=Arial, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif]

This article has been written yesterday. Today have been evolutions refering Rossi's contract.[/font]

If you look at the riding style of Stoner, compared to most of the other riders (incl Rossi, Pedro, Lorenzo, Melandri and others), Stoner slid the bike a lot more, even when the bike was loaded in the mid corner, and seemed to be able to steer the bike using power on and off. Rossi (and others), rides it like its on rails, much less sliding and smoother corner entry, mid corner and exit. No question, this should be the faster method as long as the bike handles properly and has good mechanical grip.

Maybe the Duc does have a steering problem (maybe because of longer wheelbase, engine, frame to stiff, whatever) and Ducati needs a rider able to ride it loose, and use power on and off to help turn the bike in its current form. We all heard for years that Stoner used minimal TC, and was faster with less TC. Maybe with the evolution of the Yamahas and Hondas, even riding the Duc in this way is just not fast enough any more, but if not it means a complete change in the philosophy of Ducati and a complete redesign of the bike.

Over a single lap, Hayden is faster than Rossi, and has been for most of the last 2 years. Hayden is good, but there is no question Rossi should be faster. Hayden seems to be able to slide the bike more and seems more comfortable to let the bike move around and wobble.

If I was Ducati, I would test Espargaro on the bike, with a very loose setup and minimal TC, so it moves and slides, and see what he can do. Don't worry about lap tmes, but see if he can ride it in the way Stoner did, sliding the bike and balancing it with power rather than sheer mechanical grip. If so, then see how fast he is. If he can't, then expect some torn up bikes.

Ducati almost need to go back to the point where their bike was good, maybe 08/09, and start again. To build the bike they way they have, they need a rider able to ride it the way Stoner did, and for me the one who looks similar (although on vastly different bikes) is Espargaro.

Nuts said:

If you look at the riding style of Stoner, compared to most of the other riders (incl Rossi, Pedro, Lorenzo, Melandri and others), Stoner slid the bike a lot more, even when the bike was loaded in the mid corner, and seemed to be able to steer the bike using power on and off. Rossi (and others), rides it like its on rails, much less sliding and smoother corner entry, mid corner and exit. No question, this should be the faster method as long as the bike handles properly and has good mechanical grip.

Maybe the Duc does have a steering problem (maybe because of longer wheelbase, engine, frame to stiff, whatever) and Ducati needs a rider able to ride it loose, and use power on and off to help turn the bike in its current form. We all heard for years that Stoner used minimal TC, and was faster with less TC. Maybe with the evolution of the Yamahas and Hondas, even riding the Duc in this way is just not fast enough any more, but if not it means a complete change in the philosophy of Ducati and a complete redesign of the bike.

Over a single lap, Hayden is faster than Rossi, and has been for most of the last 2 years. Hayden is good, but there is no question Rossi should be faster. Hayden seems to be able to slide the bike more and seems more comfortable to let the bike move around and wobble.

If I was Ducati, I would test Espargaro on the bike, with a very loose setup and minimal TC, so it moves and slides, and see what he can do. Don't worry about lap tmes, but see if he can ride it in the way Stoner did, sliding the bike and balancing it with power rather than sheer mechanical grip. If so, then see how fast he is. If he can't, then expect some torn up bikes.

Ducati almost need to go back to the point where their bike was good, maybe 08/09, and start again. To build the bike they way they have, they need a rider able to ride it the way Stoner did, and for me the one who looks similar (although on vastly different bikes) is Espargaro.

Click to expand...

This is why they like the way Redding rode the bike, not for the lap times but because of his bike control. The only problem I see with that is that even he admitted the front end and turning felt good until he started to go faster.

Ducati stated years ago that to beat Honda and Yamaha they had to be different. They could not beat them at their own game. I like that philosophy because it has the potential to breed innovation. As Nuts stated above, different was wild and loose and it produced fast. No doubt the strategy would have produced more poor results over the years than winning results but it still would have and did produce winning results. Ducati trying to be Japanese will never produce winning results because they will always be behind in experience and knowledge and the Japanese just keep pushing forward.



Rossi was always the wrong fit for Ducati because he is an institutionalised Japanese design rider. This does not in anyway deter from his abilities but it is just plain simple fact. He does not have the ability and has proved he does not have the will to adapt to the wild and loose style that the Ducati has always required. In my opinion they should have parted ways by the end of 2011 rather than try to force Ducati to be Japanese.



As Nuts says, let some of the young up and comers with wild and loose styles have a crack at it. Maybe one of them will be able to return Ducati to the podium which is all Ducati really wants. But most of all let Ducati be different which is what we should all be yelling for because other wise we will continue on the march towards single design philosophy and parity based racing. Boring!

Mental Anarchist said:

A. Ducati stated years ago that to beat Honda and Yamaha they had to be different. They could not beat them at their own game. I like that philosophy because it has the potential to breed innovation. As Nuts stated above, different was wild and loose and it produced fast. No doubt the strategy would have produced more poor results over the years than winning results but it still would have and did produce winning results. B. Ducati trying to be Japanese will never produce winning results because they will always be behind in experience and knowledge and the Japanese just keep pushing forward.



Rossi was always the wrong fit for Ducati because he is an institutionalised Japanese design rider. This does not in anyway deter from his abilities but it is just plain simple fact. He does not have the ability and has proved he does not have the will to adapt to the wild and loose style that the Ducati has always required. In my opinion they should have parted ways by the end of 2011 rather than try to force Ducati to be Japanese.



As Nuts says, let some of the young up and comers with wild and loose styles have a crack at it. Maybe one of them will be able to return Ducati to the podium which is all Ducati really wants. But most of all let Ducati be different which is what we should all be yelling for because other wise we will continue on the march towards single design philosophy and parity based racing. Boring!

Click to expand...

A. I always thought that was a big cop-out; more of an excuse for continuing to lose by grimly sticking with design parameters that resulted in bikes that could not win races.



B. Tell that to BMW. Look how they've done in just a few years in WSBK. MGP is a more expensive field to compete in but Ducati knew that coming in. The idea that they should pin their championship hopes on finding a rider that compliments the bike is absurd. Nobody builds a car around a driver that may or may not exist and no bike manufacturer in its right mind should either.

Keshav said:

A. I always thought that was a big cop-out; more of an excuse for continuing to lose by grimly sticking with design parameters that resulted in bikes that could not win races.



B. Tell that to BMW. Look how they've done in just a few years in WSBK. MGP is a more expensive field to compete in but Ducati knew that coming in. The idea that they should pin their championship hopes on finding a rider that compliments the bike is absurd. Nobody builds a car around a driver that may or may not exist and no bike manufacturer in its right mind should either.

Click to expand...

A. Their bikes have won races so how could it be a cop out? Is Ducati in MotoGP to win Championships? Idealistically yes, but is it their true focus? Some may say, why compete if it is not to win. Well why are satellite bikes and CRT bikes there then? Perhaps Ducati are there to prove that on a given weekend they are able to beat the Japanese with their own philosophy on bike design. 2-3 wins per season may be the ultimate for them and ample justification for going racing.



B. I don't see that BMW are all that successful in WSBK. This year is their closest to the front but how much is that due to them having arguably the best rider on the grid on their bike. Personally I rate Melandri as the best rider on the grid. Also the BMW factory is heavily involved in the project where as the other teams are less Factory. BMW started from a no sports bike history so have been free to closely mimic what the Japs do from the start. Ducati have their own sports bike history so their start point is vastly different. Finally WSBK is not prototype racing and I would say is slightly less dependent on the bike and more dependent on the rider and hence why they are doing better with a quality rider such as Melandri.

As J4rno has repeatedly stated Ducati was able to win when they had a tire specifically designed to take advantage of their bikes strengths......once that exclusivity of design was taken away from them and the competition was able to catch up engine wise with pnuematic valve systems they started to go backwards. They also had a pretty good electronic / engine management / fuel economy package at the start of 2007 developed in conjunction with Shell and MM.



Rather ironic considering it was Rossi who was primarily responsible for the move away from a solely Ducati designed tire when Bridgestone had to also cater for the Yamaha chassis design and then the move to a control tire that is now seemingly suited more to the Yamaha than any other bike on the grid.



Little wonder then that Uncle Carmello wanted Rossi back on a Yamaha and was busy behind the scenes helping to organise his transition back to a factory M1 after Ducatis struggles continued at the start of season 2012.

Manziana's blog has sometimes interesting observations mainly based on the analysis of photographs of the Ducati, but his hypothesis that the Audi deal froze the activity of Ducati Corse for 3-4 months because they had to check the accounts and cash flow in view of the acquisition doesn't really make much sense; the budget for these activities is allocated already and there would be no need to freeze running expenses in order to check the financial situation. The real reason for the snail pace of development of the Ducati MotoGP bike in 2012 is technical: they do not really know where to go with the frame unless they change the engine architecture, and that cannot be done before next year. Meanwhile chassis-wise they can only go on with some minor modification to weight distribution, while the main work under way is on the engine and electronics (implementing the double injection tied to a predictive TC to catch up with the Japanese who have had it for two years).

povol said:

Didnt say he was crap, all of these guys are great riders. He just has not shown the pedigree to be considered for a GP ride. Nicks pedigree shows him winning big at every step on his way to GP, Redding just hasnt done that.

Click to expand...

Hayden was a factory rider from the moment he threw his leg over an RC45 at age 17. In 5 years as a factory rider he won 17 races, 9 of them in 2002. There are, on average, 24 races a year. So a better record than he has had in his MotoGP career, but nothing like Mladin or Spies.



As we have seen, the machine has so much influence on performance. I wonder how much of a record Hayden would have if his route to MotoGP was through 125 and 250 racing for satellite teams, rather than a political appointment to gain viewers in America? I wonder how many races he would have won if he wasn't on the Repsol team, but was instead riding for Suzuki or Kawasaki?



Marc VDS threw out the Suter halfway through the season for a Kalex, they were that disenchanted with the performance. Despite that, Redding has managed some decent results.



If he was riding a 250 for a factory team, I have no doubt he would be in a similar position - in the top 6 or so of 30+ riders.



In a straight-up battle between Hayden and Redding on a Moto2 bike, I am confident Redding would hold his own.

Mental Anarchist said:

A. Their bikes have won races so how could it be a cop out? Is Ducati in MotoGP to win Championships? Idealistically yes, but is it their true focus?

Click to expand...

Yes. Absolutely. 100%. Without a doubt.



If you truly believe they are there for any other reason, I sincerely doubt your knowledge of racing at any level.



In my experience teams enter racing for a couple of reasons; To win; For the social life.



I don't believe Ducati are there for the social.

Zootalaws said:

Yes. Absolutely. 100%. Without a doubt.



If you truly believe they are there for any other reason, I sincerely doubt your knowledge of racing at any level.



In my experience teams enter racing for a couple of reasons; To win; For the social life.



I don't believe Ducati are there for the social.

Click to expand...

Well I disagree. If that were true then grids around the world would be full of 2-3 teams max. If you are so knowledgeable about racing please explain to me why the CRT bikes are there because there is not a single chance in a million that they can win. What are the satellite bikes there for because their odds are not much better.



Look at F1. Full of teams that will never have a chance of stepping on the top step of the podium.



Sure they all may say they are there to win but I don't believe people spend millions of dollars for a true goal that is completely delusional.



If you can't understand why a manufacturer like Ducati might enter MotoGP for something other than winning a championship then maybe it is you who has no knowledge of racing at any level.



The whole argument put forth by Dorna that MotoGP is a business and entertainment as opposed to strictly being a sport and competition simply destroys your argument.



Ducati have many very good reason to go racing without their primary focus being on winning championships. Winning the odd race certainly helps them with their marketing. Going racing helps them develop technology that goes into building better consumer bikes. Simply having their bikes on the grid of the pinnacle Motorcycle Racing Series gives them huge marketing opportunities.

Last time I looked, Dorna weren't racing. How the fact that they consider GP a business negates my argument, I'm not sure.



OK - I concede, your superior bench racing history trumps my two decades of hands-on... what do I know? Teams aren't in it to win - just for ..... and giggles, right?

Mental Anarchist said:

BMW started from a no sports bike history...

Click to expand...

Say what? Although I don't always agree with your view points MA, you have always seemed to be knowledgable, but BMW motorcycles have a long and successful sporting history. Primer available here: http://www.visordown.com/features/bmws-motorcycle-racing-history/11109.html

J4rn0 said:

Manziana's blog has sometimes interesting observations mainly based on the analysis of photographs of the Ducati, but his hypothesis that the Audi deal froze the activity of Ducati Corse for 3-4 months because they had to check the accounts and cash flow in view of the acquisition doesn't really make much sense; the budget for these activities is allocated already and there would be no need to freeze running expenses in order to check the financial situation. The real reason for the snail pace of development of the Ducati MotoGP bike in 2012 is technical: they do not really know where to go with the frame unless they change the engine architecture, and that cannot be done before next year. Meanwhile chassis-wise they can only go on with some minor modification to weight distribution, while the main work under way is on the engine and electronics (implementing the double injection tied to a predictive TC to catch up with the Japanese who have had it for two years).

Click to expand...

Well he did say it was speculative.

Zootalaws said:

In a straight-up battle between Hayden and Redding on a Moto2 bike, I am confident Redding would hold his own.

Click to expand...

In a straight up battle on a mgp bike, I am confident Hayden would kick Otis' butt!!!

Mick D said:

In a straight up battle on a mgp bike, I am confident Hayden would kick Otis' butt!!!

Click to expand...

On a bike that's hard to handle?

Mick D said:

In a straight up battle on a mgp bike, I am confident Hayden would kick Otis' butt!!!

Click to expand...

No doubt his 9 years of GP experience would allow him a measure of success over a rookie. Although he's only just holding on against Bradl... I am confident that if he can manage to get a ride for next year, that Marquez will hand him his hat.

Mick D said:

Say what? Although I don't always agree with your view points MA, you have always seemed to be knowledgable, but BMW motorcycles have a long and successful sporting history. Primer available here: http://www.visordown...tory/11109.html

Click to expand...

To be honest I work from what I have seen in era's that I have watched. I take the point though that many decades ago BWM raced sports bikes. In context though BMW's sports bike history is not as relevant or as recent as Ducati's is.

Zootalaws said:

Last time I looked, Dorna weren't racing. How the fact that they consider GP a business negates my argument, I'm not sure.



OK - I concede, your superior bench racing history trumps my two decades of hands-on... what do I know? Teams aren't in it to win - just for ..... and giggles, right?

Click to expand...

I don't give a toss how long you have done anything. I know people who have spent a life time in a career and know bugger all about it. Some people are just stupid. There is a saying that you can have 20 years experience or you can have 1 years experience repeated 20 times.



Dorna if you weren't aware run this particular series we are talking about. Dorna have recently commented that MotoGP is about the entertainment business first and sport second. Dorna aren't interested at all in who wins MotoGP races other than if the winner will increase or decrease Dorna's revenue streams.



Is Ducati a business or is it a sporting organisation?



If you can't conceive that people participate in sport for more things than just winning then the conversation ends here. If you can't conceive that a business participates in a sport for more things than just winning then no point in replying because your 2 decades of racing means ..... Once you understand business then perhaps we can continue the conversation.

Mental Anarchist said:

A. Their bikes have won races so how could it be a cop out? Is Ducati in MotoGP to win Championships? Idealistically yes, but is it their true focus? Some may say, why compete if it is not to win. Well why are satellite bikes and CRT bikes there then? Perhaps Ducati are there to prove that on a given weekend they are able to beat the Japanese with their own philosophy on bike design. 2-3 wins per season may be the ultimate for them and ample justification for going racing.



B. I don't see that BMW are all that successful in WSBK. This year is their closest to the front but how much is that due to them having arguably the best rider on the grid on their bike. Personally I rate Melandri as the best rider on the grid. Also the BMW factory is heavily involved in the project where as the other teams are less Factory. BMW started from a no sports bike history so have been free to closely mimic what the Japs do from the start. Ducati have their own sports bike history so their start point is vastly different. Finally WSBK is not prototype racing and I would say is slightly less dependent on the bike and more dependent on the rider and hence why they are doing better with a quality rider such as Melandri.

Click to expand...

A. They won a few back in the day with Capirossi and a bunch with Stoner. But nobody but Stoner has done .... on the Ducati since the 800 era.



As regards either company being dependent on a star rider - I'd say that before Melandri came on board - BMW were constantly showing great strides, but were hindered by their stubborn insistence on developing their own elect. package. If they'd used the Italian electronics I think they'd have come along ever faster. That said, numerous of the riders were threatening for the podium by the time of BMW's second season. Even Pedrosa (a better rider than any of ex MGP guys now in WSBK) could only do so much on a lesser machine.



I'd say taking a bike that didn't exist 5 years ago to putting it on the podium regularly in a few season's time is a pretty good example of success.



B. Point is BMW designed a bike from the ground up to compete against Japanese bikes that have evolved over decades and were competitive in just a few years. They could have just stuck with a ten year old chassis and used a boxer twin engine and made the same excuses as Ducati but they didn't.



Not saying Ducati aren't in it to win - but that they are overmuch wed to design philosophy which reflects their individuality but doesn't make for a bike on which anyone other than Stoner could win a championship on.