What if Stoner really is that good

I,ve watched from the sidelines for a year , and it has been amazing the gradual change in attitude of posters to Casey Stoner. At the end of 2006, when he secured the Ducati ride, there were many negative comments ( especially from the UK contingent) about how CS would perform in 2007. Everything from- he,s gonna crash all the time and kill Ducatis racing budget, to He,ll be booted out after one year of poor performances. I thought he would be top 3 this year, but like all opthers never imagined the dominant rides he would put in this year. Early this year, most comments were to the effect that it was the Ducatis speed and not Stoners ability. Later on it was the Bridgestones. Only now are many willing to admit that Stoner is something special and deserves the title this year.

However, there is still the pervading concensus by many that Rossi is still a better or far better rider than Stoner and woul dominate him if on the same bike.

I,m not so sure. The thing is, that it is so hard to compare riders ability. You can only make true assessments if 2 riders are on equal bikes in the same team on the same tyres. This is not possible at yamaha (Edwards not given parity, Honda ( Hayden not given as much priority as Pedrosa??)
I believe the Ducats, Suzukis and Kawasakis are essentially equal (I could be proved wrong). SOooo....Hopkins is faster than CV in the dry usually. DP( until he crashes) is usually faster than Westy( but improving rapidly), and CS is vastly faster than Capirossi. Now did Capirossi suddenly become a poor rider. I doubt it. Maybe CS suits the 800 better, but the margin is HUGE! Maybe the Ducat is nothing like the great all-round package after all. Maybe the Yamaha is a great package ( as CE and JB attest) Maybe CS just rides the ring outta that duke!

Maybe Stoner is right now a better rider than Rossi!! I think CS is on the way up and VR on the way out. It always happens , as one star fades another eclipses it. I,m sure Pedrosa will get better as will many others ,and that the racing will get closer next year, but to me Stoners dominance suggests he could well be the next Doohan .
I just don,t want to not hear any more "Rossi would thrash CS if on the Ducati as well" Total crap..........in my humble opinion.........
Burky commented on CSs ride at Brno. I agree. Track Marshalls at Laguna Seca were saying that CS was clearly going faster than all of the others.
Stoner gains ground on the others because he is smooth, inch perfect and consistent every lap, You just can,t beat that. (as a sideline -watching Westy dominate Sofoglu in WSS in the last race there- westy was so smooth and looked slower than the regular WSS riders, but it was deceptive, he was just closer to getting the perfect braking points, corner speeds and lines than all the others. Stoner is like this, but yet another level past this)

Stoner really is that good!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bunyip @ Aug 28 2007, 12:09 AM) [snapback]87105[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I,ve watched from the sidelines for a year , and it has been amazing the gradual change in attitude of posters to Casey Stoner. At the end of 2006, when he secured the Ducati ride, there were many negative comments ( especially from the UK contingent) about how CS would perform in 2007. Everything from- he,s gonna crash all the time and kill Ducatis racing budget, to He,ll be booted out after one year of poor performances. I thought he would be top 3 this year, but like all opthers never imagined the dominant rides he would put in this year. Early this year, most comments were to the effect that it was the Ducatis speed and not Stoners ability. Later on it was the Bridgestones. Only now are many willing to admit that Stoner is something special and deserves the title this year.

However, there is still the pervading concensus by many that Rossi is still a better or far better rider than Stoner and woul dominate him if on the same bike.

I,m not so sure. The thing is, that it is so hard to compare riders ability. You can only make true assessments if 2 riders are on equal bikes in the same team on the same tyres. This is not possible at yamaha (Edwards not given parity, Honda ( Hayden not given as much priority as Pedrosa??)
I believe the Ducats, Suzukis and Kawasakis are essentially equal (I could be proved wrong). SOooo....Hopkins is faster than CV in the dry usually. DP( until he crashes) is usually faster than Westy( but improving rapidly), and CS is vastly faster than Capirossi. Now did Capirossi suddenly become a poor rider. I doubt it. Maybe CS suits the 800 better, but the margin is HUGE! Maybe the Ducat is nothing like the great all-round package after all. Maybe the Yamaha is a great package ( as CE and JB attest) Maybe CS just rides the ring outta that duke!

Maybe Stoner is right now a better rider than Rossi!! I think CS is on the way up and VR on the way out. It always happens , as one star fades another eclipses it. I,m sure Pedrosa will get better as will many others ,and that the racing will get closer next year, but to me Stoners dominance suggests he could well be the next Doohan .
I just don,t want to not hear any more "Rossi would thrash CS if on the Ducati as well" Total crap..........in my humble opinion.........
Burky commented on CSs ride at Brno. I agree. Track Marshalls at Laguna Seca were saying that CS was clearly going faster than all of the others.
Stoner gains ground on the others because he is smooth, inch perfect and consistent every lap, You just can,t beat that. (as a sideline -watching Westy dominate Sofoglu in WSS in the last race there- westy was so smooth and looked slower than the regular WSS riders, but it was deceptive, he was just closer to getting the perfect braking points, corner speeds and lines than all the others. Stoner is like this, but yet another level past this)

Stoner really is that good!!

Fantastic post Bunny (you don't mind if I call you Bunny!)
This is very much how I see it, so many folk are blinded by the past and don't recognise the 'now' and the 'future', even when it happens in front of their eyes.

To be fair, the outcry and total dismissal of Casey's talents by Rossi fans early in the season has now petered out into nothing more than whining, as it has emerged that Casey is by far and away the best rider this year. It's not about the bike, it's about the man on board. It is Casey that is making the difference, otherwise it would be like F1 with him trading wins with Loris. Again, the claim that Moto GP is getting like F1 is total nonsense, and smacks of sour grapes purely because Casey keeps disappearing into the distance.

Bunny, you say CS is on the way up, and VR on the way out. Well, I agree entirely with this, but not through any fan based decision. This is the process of life where people have to 'move on', and find something else to do. This is natural progression, and Valentino being a huge personality will no doubt always be in the limelight in one way or another. But as for winning the title again, I just cannot see it now. The fire seems to have gone out, the team spirit falling apart, and with some incredibly fast riders coming into the series in 2008 I can only see it getting harder for him.

Of course, we can never say never, and I'm ready to be shot down in flames in 2008 if Vale pulls out a massive comeback next year. But I think I'm safe!!! As for Casey, well I'm not sure if even he can dominate next year as he has this year, but he's going to be mighty hard to beat. Psychologically, he is going to have a huge advantage over all current Moto GP riders, which is why I feel Lorenzo may be the man to ask the questions of him.

The critisisms of Casey on this forum this year, and how they have developed, can only be described as laughable. First, it was down to the Ducati top speed, then it was the nature of the circuits, then of course it was the tyres Now all those arguements have been exhausted and CS is still whipping the opposition, we have resorted to describing the season as processional like F1! Come on guys, give Casey the credit he deserves. Fill this thread up with compliments, not with excuses. He has proved that the answer to this year's success is simple,....the kid is on fire!

As for the boring season comments, I can only assume these comments in the main come from the TV audience. I can assure you that watching Casey in the flesh being visibly faster than the rest, is quite simply awesome. So.....my answer to this thread title is 'Yes, Casey is that good!'

My comments are from my head, using my common sense, knowledge and experiences. If I were to forget all that and speak purely as a bias fan (like so many on here do), then JT will without doubt be World Champ next year!!!!!! ;-)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bunyip @ Aug 27 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]87105[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I,ve watched from the sidelines for a year , and it has been amazing the gradual change in attitude of posters to Casey Stoner. At the end of 2006, when he secured the Ducati ride, there were many negative comments ( especially from the UK contingent) about how CS would perform in 2007. Everything from- he,s gonna crash all the time and kill Ducatis racing budget, to He,ll be booted out after one year of poor performances. I thought he would be top 3 this year, but like all opthers never imagined the dominant rides he would put in this year. Early this year, most comments were to the effect that it was the Ducatis speed and not Stoners ability. Later on it was the Bridgestones. Only now are many willing to admit that Stoner is something special and deserves the title this year.

However, there is still the pervading concensus by many that Rossi is still a better or far better rider than Stoner and woul dominate him if on the same bike.


Good post. I'm not sure about this section though. Hayden has a championship on the books and his good name is still dragged thru the mud by the haters. Everyone said when the 800 came out, he would never be competitive. At the beginning of the season it looked like the haters were right, but thanks to his determination he has earned some respect.

Of course people said Stoner would crash the Duc. He crashed the LCR 7 times on race day. No one believed Stoner when he said the LCR was a crashing machine, but now we know it's true.

Stoner doesn't even have a title in the bag yet, so people can still verbally abuse him to whatever extent they please and feel justified (unfortunately). Melandri is going to be on equal equipment in 2008. Stoner's chance to silence his critics is next season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Aug 28 2007, 09:50 AM) [snapback]87118[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Melandri is going to be on equal equipment in 2008. Stoner's chance to silence his critics is next season.

This is unfortunately true, what a shame that the disbelievers need to see him beat Melandri, of all people, to prove his worth!!!!!! How bizarre is that?
I didn't realise Marco was so much better than Loris!

As good as Stoner is, I don't think he or anyone will ever replicate what Rossi and some of the other greats have done. We are entering the period now that is seeing the results of riders plucked from a very young age and groomed to be world champions. MotoGP has never seen this level of talent from top to bottom in its history and this trend will only continue.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Stoner or Rossi here. Stoner is the beginning of a new era of competition and as of now is the top of the heap. Rossi is a legend, no arguments. He just peaked before this entire generation of 'handpicked from the age of six' reached the pinnacle of the sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Austin @ Aug 28 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]87123[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
As good as Stoner is, I don't think he or anyone will ever replicate what Rossi and some of the other greats have done. We are entering the period now that is seeing the results of riders plucked from a very young age and groomed to be world champions. MotoGP has never seen this level of talent from top to bottom in its history and this trend will only continue.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Stoner or Rossi here. Stoner is the beginning of a new era of competition and as of now is the top of the heap. Rossi is a legend, no arguments. He just peaked before this entire generation of 'handpicked from the age of six' reached the pinnacle of the sport.

Totally agree! I cannot see Casey dominating like Rossi, but that is because the competition will be that much more in depth.

We'll just have to wait & see, correct me if I'm wrong but even those in the know didn't give Rossi kudos until 2004. There's an extremely long way to go.

ducati always has had a speed advantage down the straight for the past 5 years!!!! but has anyone ever complained about it??? NO why not, because loris, sete and try wernt winning jack .....

this year, if they kept the status quo, ducati would of once again been mid pack results, and not dominating, then they wouldnt of even made a mention.

but now comes a new gun and blasts them all away, and even as most of you say here, "the championship contender in 2006 loris caparossi", then everyone starts making excuses.

once again i say, the bosses at ducati knows a thing or two more about rider talent you you or I ever would, and they wouldnt call stoner a "genius" for nothing. there not stupid. they know he is finally putting a rider behind the potential of the bike, a bike that had all that untapped potential for the last 5years. and only this year has it been tapped by stoner.

look at alonso did for renault? look at renault this year? have they really gone that far backwards this year? from WC to only 30 points in total between the 2 drivers? or does it have something to do with the driver??


what ever happen in LCR happened last year, what ducati say was glimpeses of brilliance and potential. just like what anthony davidson shown in F1. i wouldnt be suprised if he dont score a ride in a bigger team.

before this season, you could hardly blame people for taking this p out of Casey having Ducati bankrupt in less than a season - he spent so much time on his arse it had a 'flat spot'.

i always said that i thought Casey would do ok on the Duke (you can check my posts if you feel the need) and despite being a die hard Rossi fan - I will not have a word said against Casey - he's been riding like a champion and he thoroughly deserves to get his title...........and i've no doubt he will. as stated earlier - if it was JUST the bike the Capi would be spanking everyone too - and he isn't. far from it in fact.

what irritates me is when people say "Casey is a better rider than Rossi" - that is not a statement anyone can make with any conviction. Rossi didn't win 7 titles for nothing and I think he deserves a bit of respect. i'm not going to go on about tyres etc (because no-one went on about them when Michelin was dominating the field) but you don't go from hero to zero over night and as far as i'm concerned - if the Yamaha package was upto it, then Rossi would be running at the front. I won't say he'd be winning every race and i'm not saying he'd beat Stoner but he sure as hell wouldn't be limping it's ... home in 8th.

it's always the same when there's a new kid on the block isn't it - all the die hard fans appear in their thousands - i didn't hear anyone telling me Casey was the future of Moto GP when he was destroying the LCR Honda week after week.

Support your guy, just don't talk .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(baldylocks @ Aug 28 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]87143[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
What irritates me is when people say "Casey is a better rider than Rossi" - that is not a statement anyone can make with any conviction. Rossi didn't win 7 titles for nothing and I think he deserves a bit of respect. i'm not going to go on about tyres etc (because no-one went on about them when Michelin was dominating the field) but you don't go from hero to zero over night and as far as i'm concerned - if the Yamaha package was upto it, then Rossi would be running at the front. I won't say he'd be winning every race and i'm not saying he'd beat Stoner but he sure as hell wouldn't be limping it's ... home in 8th.

Of course Vale gets respect, well he does from me even if folk read me wrong, but the fact is that 'this year', Stoner is better than Rossi!

You speak of the 'package' Baldy, but that package includes the rider. As you know I've said before that I feel Valentino lost focus last year, rode the wave of hype, and ended up getting beaten. Perhaps he should have been testing the Yamaha and not the Ferrari! The Yam was not the best 'package' in 2005, but Valentino made the difference and would force the situation even when the bike was below par.

To me, the current standings make perfect sense. Vale has indeed won 7 world titles, but his motivation must be so different now compared to a few years ago. He clearly is no longer enjoying the adulation from both fan and press, and that is obviously having an effect on his frame of mind. Perhaps if he has got to the stage where he no longer wants to play the PR game, and the desire to win at all costs as in previous years is also waivering. Of course, I don't know the man, but his body language at the circuit and on it seems to have changed, seemingly resigned to the fact he is going to get beaten.

I do hope that Yamaha can pull their fingers out with regard to the bike before the end of the year and give the guy back his confidence, because that will only make for a fantastic 2008 season.

As an afterthought, Hayden has been critisized this year even though the situation seems similar with bike problems rather than the rider. The difference is that Nicky has improved along with the bike during the year, from an appalling start to now taking regular podiums. Yet I don't see much in the way of respect for the guy on this forum.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<div class='quotemain'>Yamaha can pull their fingers out with regard to the bike

wtf r u on about??

quotes from edwards and rossi at the start/mid point of the season: "the bike handles great, it got so much grip" ... i will try find the video somewhere. (its one of the youtube/motogp videos) also "our bikes are superior on the corners, we will see things change when we go to the smaller tracks"

also if not for stoner, rossi would still be dominating the championship, before the last round he would of been in front of pedrosa by 20+ points. and clear favourite to win another championship.

also what i find really amusing is how everyone's bike is sooooo bad, even that of loris', the only bike that is great is stoners

IF Stoner is really that good, then he'll win more titles in the future. He surely deserves this one.

Though I don't think you can blame people for thinking CS would crash a lot this year, I thought and it was quite a logical thought, CS crashed often in 2006, in 2005, in 2004 .... etc... so how could we know he wouldn't crash at all this season?

About CS being better than Rossi, well currently it's hard to tell, with different bikes and different tyres. I really hope Michelin get their act together so we can see a close fight and see who is the best.

I think people misinterpret Caseys season last year. I think his season was brilliant and based on that I saw a top 3 for him this year seemed likely. He was on a 3rd string Honda and yet, apart from Rossi , was the only guy who was top 5 or so in every practice, qualifying and race. Melandri, capirossi and even hayden were not as consistently fast. At half season he was on target for top 5 on a very ordinary bike. ...........and then Honda politics decreed that he would be denied top tyres by Michelin for the rest of the year. Casey and his team say so. Conspiracy theory?? but it seems to fit in light of what has transpired this year. And with worse race tyres than practice tyres he crashed and often. Its history. I never said Casey is better than Rossi ever was, but I think he is better than Rossi is this year. In future years he will be challenged by the likes of Pedrosa, lorenzo etc and may even be beaten for the world title, but THIS year he is pure class.

PS> I think the others have a hell of a job to beat him though.
Combine focus with unflappability and an inch-perfect riding style- a very hard combination to beat. We may be seeing the next Doohan.

Yes Stoner is that good. But the question is whether he's better than ALL the rest. I don't think so. I always rated Stoner in 250's and last year he made a ..... bike look better than it was.

My placing of riders is thus:

Tier One: Rossi
Tier Two: Melandri, Stoner, Pedrosa
Tier Three: Hayden, Capirossi, Barros, Nakano, Hopkins, Vermulen
Tier Four: All the rest.

I put Stoner in the second group purely because it's just one season. Next year when he has a hungry and equally talented Melandri with him we can judge properly.

As for comparing him to Rossi, I can only point to Mugello where Rossi cleaned his clock on a track that was supposed to suit the Ducati. Rossi still has the talent but I think both Yamaha and Michelin have had their development programs turned completely upside down by Ducati and Bridgestone. Both companies seem to be firefighting each week in reaction to Ducati rather than taking a long term approach (meaning give up and look to next year).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bunyip @ Aug 28 2007, 05:16 AM) [snapback]87165[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think people misinterpret Caseys season last year. I think his season was brilliant and based on that I saw a top 3 for him this year seemed likely. He was on a 3rd string Honda and yet, apart from Rossi , was the only guy who was top 5 or so in every practice, qualifying and race. Melandri, capirossi and even hayden were not as consistently fast. At half season he was on target for top 5 on a very ordinary bike. ...........and then Honda politics decreed that he would be denied top tyres by Michelin for the rest of the year. Casey and his team say so. Conspiracy theory?? but it seems to fit in light of what has transpired this year. And with worse race tyres than practice tyres he crashed and often. Its history. I never said Casey is better than Rossi ever was, but I think he is better than Rossi is this year. In future years he will be challenged by the likes of Pedrosa, lorenzo etc and may even be beaten for the world title, but THIS year he is pure class.

PS> I think the others have a hell of a job to beat him though.
Combine focus with unflappability and an inch-perfect riding style- a very hard combination to beat. We may be seeing the next Doohan.


I remember that conspiracy theory. If I remember the line of reasoning taken by people who believed it, Honda cut off his tires to keep him from crashing near Hayden or Pedrosa. How ironic!

That theory rings true in my mind.

I just noticed something. In the last 12 races Casey crashed 7 times. In the first 12 races of this season, Casey has won 7 times.

What a turnaround!

Good read. I agree with all the regulars. Casey is that good. Period.

Not too much to add, but agree that Stoner has been incredibly impressive this year.

He does have a power advantage, but in some races, he has fought off challenges from Rossi that would have made Biaggi or Sete choke, and Stoner has come out on top.

From day 1, he has been the leader and he has not cracked once. Amazing performance from a 21 year old.

If he were that good, he'd have 125, and 250, championships...

they say dont judge a man by his past performance judge him by what he is doing now.
stoner is winning most of the races so with his team and package "they really are that good "

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(xx CURVE xx @ Aug 28 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]87244[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
If he were that good, he'd have 125, and 250, championships...


Maybe Stoner is best suited for MotoGP 800 than for 125 and 250. Spencer, Rayney, Doohan, Schwantz have never rode on 125 and 250.