West where to from here?

Based on Wests lack of performance for the last 11 rounds, its not a stretch to presume he'll be fired at the end of 08.

tinfoil hat/crystal ball time

I don't see Ant racing the year out with Kawasaki, in fact a break from Kawasaki could happen before Brno. Ducati have sacked Melandri and they may keep him around to chew gas and tyres but essentially he's useless. Ducati need someone who can potentially take points away from Rossi and that will never happen with Melandri. Kawasaki have made murmurs about Melandri riding the bike this season, possibly a third bike.

Now I didn't expect Westy to leave (get the boot) until seasons end, but I recent crash from WSS rider Fabien Foret has put him out of action for 3 months, pretty much the rest of the season. Ant's manager should be on the phone to Yamaha WSS team manager (Zeelenberg) begging for the chance to ride that bike at the next round, if not the round after. If Ant could get out of his Kawasaki contract (to me this wouldn't seem too difficult given the fact he's mud), Melandri could step in (ducati running gibernau), Ant would be free to ride a bike closer to his level of expertise.

To me the pieces fit nicely, unfortunately it probably won't happen and we'll get to see both guys at the back in Brno.

AntFan would do you think?

Whilst the rumours persist about MM leaving Ducati, I have yet to see anything official so wouldn't put to much weight there just yet. Additionally I would expect that any 'early termination' agreement would mean that MM could not compete in MotoGP for the remainder of the 2008 season (reasonably standard fare).

If Kawasaki are to get rid of West at this stage, they need to find a replacement who is not on contract elsewhere, available and capable. Olivier Jacque or another test rider perhaps.

With regards to West, yes his performances have been ordinary but to be fair, he has broken (or fractured) vertebrae in his back at the moment and if rumours are true, he lost his entire 2007 crew to Hopkins which would have upset the equilibrium a bit.

Whilst I can see West on the receiving end immediately, I can also see Kawasaki just sitting tight as it is not like they will lose anything by keeping him for the year.

Once he does go I do believe that West would be a sensation on Production based machinery as I do feel his problem is more the inability to come to grips with the set-up of a MotoGP machine than any lack of ability. By this I mean it is readily accepted that a MotoGP bike has a myriad more settings and is far more difficult to get these right than is a WSBK/WSS machine. To me, West has the ability to ride through small issues on a Production machine because they are more forgiving than a MotoGP bike.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2008, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst the rumours persist about MM leaving Ducati, I have yet to see anything official so wouldn't put to much weight there just yet. Additionally I would expect that any 'early termination' agreement would mean that MM could not compete in MotoGP for the remainder of the 2008 season (reasonably standard fare).

If Kawasaki are to get rid of West at this stage, they need to find a replacement who is not on contract elsewhere, available and capable. Olivier Jacque or another test rider perhaps.

With regards to West, yes his performances have been ordinary but to be fair, he has broken (or fractured) vertebrae in his back at the moment and if rumours are true, he lost his entire 2007 crew to Hopkins which would have upset the equilibrium a bit.

Whilst I can see West on the receiving end immediately, I can also see Kawasaki just sitting tight as it is not like they will lose anything by keeping him for the year.

Once he does go I do believe that West would be a sensation on Production based machinery as I do feel his problem is more the inability to come to grips with the set-up of a MotoGP machine than any lack of ability. By this I mean it is readily accepted that a MotoGP bike has a myriad more settings and is far more difficult to get these right than is a WSBK/WSS machine. To me, West has the ability to ride through small issues on a Production machine because they are more forgiving than a MotoGP bike.






Garry

Perhaps I'm making things too simple, but I just think perhaps the class in motogp is too hot for him. WSS is perhaps where Westy is at ability wise. He has had his chance at a factory ride, ok not a top one but a factory ride none the less. He has failed to grab his chance, so I don't think he can complain when he is replaced at seasons end. Even when he has been in his element in the wet he has dropped the bike and brought home bugger all points. Nobody can say Kawasaki were not patient.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Jul 23 2008, 05:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Based on Wests lack of performance for the last 11 rounds, its not a stretch to presume he'll be fired at the end of 08.

tinfoil hat/crystal ball time


Although i would claim that this isn't a particularly realistic scenario, i think it would be an extremely positive move for West and his career. It would open the Kawasaki door for Melandri too, because they definitely need outside funding to run a 3rd factory bike. Long shot or not I'm gonna hope that this happens

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vale4607 @ Jul 23 2008, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Based on Wests lack of performance for the last 11 rounds, its not a stretch to presume he'll be fired at the end of 08.

tinfoil hat/crystal ball time

I don't see Ant racing the year out with Kawasaki, in fact a break from Kawasaki could happen before Brno. Ducati have sacked Melandri and they may keep him around to chew gas and tyres but essentially he's useless. Ducati need someone who can potentially take points away from Rossi and that will never happen with Melandri. Kawasaki have made murmurs about Melandri riding the bike this season, possibly a third bike.

Now I didn't expect Westy to leave (get the boot) until seasons end, but I recent crash from WSS rider Fabien Foret has put him out of action for 3 months, pretty much the rest of the season. Ant's manager should be on the phone to Yamaha WSS team manager (Zeelenberg) begging for the chance to ride that bike at the next round, if not the round after. If Ant could get out of his Kawasaki contract (to me this wouldn't seem too difficult given the fact he's mud), Melandri could step in (ducati running gibernau), Ant would be free to ride a bike closer to his level of expertise.

To me the pieces fit nicely, unfortunately it probably won't happen and we'll get to see both guys at the back in Brno.

AntFan would do you think?

West isn't as bad as that green shitbox makes him look. Sure he's no champion but what has hoppers done on it this year and no one is baying for his blood?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 22 2008, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst the rumours persist about MM leaving Ducati, I have yet to see anything official so wouldn't put to much weight there just yet. Additionally I would expect that any 'early termination' agreement would mean that MM could not compete in MotoGP for the remainder of the 2008 season (reasonably standard fare).

If Kawasaki are to get rid of West at this stage, they need to find a replacement who is not on contract elsewhere, available and capable. Olivier Jacque or another test rider perhaps.

With regards to West, yes his performances have been ordinary but to be fair, he has broken (or fractured) vertebrae in his back at the moment and if rumours are true, he lost his entire 2007 crew to Hopkins which would have upset the equilibrium a bit.

Whilst I can see West on the receiving end immediately, I can also see Kawasaki just sitting tight as it is not like they will lose anything by keeping him for the year.

Once he does go I do believe that West would be a sensation on Production based machinery as I do feel his problem is more the inability to come to grips with the set-up of a MotoGP machine than any lack of ability. By this I mean it is readily accepted that a MotoGP bike has a myriad more settings and is far more difficult to get these right than is a WSBK/WSS machine. To me, West has the ability to ride through small issues on a Production machine because they are more forgiving than a MotoGP bike.






Garry
Top post Gaz, couldn't agree more with the assessment of Westy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jul 23 2008, 12:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps I'm making things too simple, but I just think perhaps the class in motogp is too hot for him. WSS is perhaps where Westy is at ability wise. He has had his chance at a factory ride, ok not a top one but a factory ride none the less. He has failed to grab his chance, so I don't think he can complain when he is replaced at seasons end. Even when he has been in his element in the wet he has dropped the bike and brought home bugger all points. Nobody can say Kawasaki were not patient.
He has the talent, that's evident when it rains. Rain is the great equalizer (I know it's very cliche but it's true). Even in the dry he's had a few results. But in the end he just can't seem to come to grips with setup. All the best to him wherever he ends up, hopefully with a good ride in WSS or WSB.

The kawasaki is a pile of .... - he'll be gone by the end of the season, but it's not all down to his ability, or lack thereof. Both riders for kawasaki are having a .... season and if Melandri moves there, I fully expect him to have as bad a time as everyone else.
The kawasaki isn't looking like a ride that anyone would be rushing to jump on. If the riders aren't pushing it over it's limits and crashing, then the bike is having mechanical failures.
I'm sure someone from WSS or WSBK will pick him up at the end of the year, as he obviously has done very well in WSS in the few races he's ridden.

"Welcome to McDonald's, May I take your order"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 23 2008, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The kawasaki is a pile of .... - he'll be gone by the end of the season, but it's not all down to his ability, or lack thereof. Both riders for kawasaki are having a .... season and if Melandri moves there, I fully expect him to have as bad a time as everyone else.
The kawasaki isn't looking like a ride that anyone would be rushing to jump on. If the riders aren't pushing it over it's limits and crashing, then the bike is having mechanical failures.
I'm sure someone from WSS or WSBK will pick him up at the end of the year, as he obviously has done very well in WSS in the few races he's ridden.
Kawasaki has 2 wins in premier class history I believe; less than cagiva and quite a few now forgotten marques.

Unfortunately as someone said earlier ant doesn't seem up to it even so; he isn't 19 and apparently jamie hacking as the wild card rider at laguna had more ideas about how to set up the bike than ant has had so far this year. I agree he would likely do well again in wss and perhaps even in wsbk.

He should go to WSBK not WSS.

Doesn't he have a cumulative total of approximately 2 years in the premier class? WSS is not the place for him. Kawasaki built a God awful bike this year, Westy and Hopper have both suffered enough. Hopper is getting paid too much to leave, Westy, on the other hand, should go use his skills for a WSBK outfit.

i had very high hopes for ant. when he came from WSS he looked briliant, and at first on the kaw he seemed to be doing quite well. not sure what happened. maybe nakano was helping him with setup or something.

as far as what was outlined, i just hope that whatever happens, works out for all parties involved. i hate to see anyone's career ruined, because all these guys can ride the .... out of a bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 23 2008, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i hate to see anyone's career ruined, because all these guys can ride the .... out of a bike.

West's career has had no particular success to ruin, but he has proven he can run at the front in WSS, moving there full time could be a very positive step for him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 24 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The kawasaki is a pile of .... - he'll be gone by the end of the season, but it's not all down to his ability, or lack thereof. Both riders for kawasaki are having a .... season and if Melandri moves there, I fully expect him to have as bad a time as everyone else.
The kawasaki isn't looking like a ride that anyone would be rushing to jump on. If the riders aren't pushing it over it's limits and crashing, then the bike is having mechanical failures.
I'm sure someone from WSS or WSBK will pick him up at the end of the year, as he obviously has done very well in WSS in the few races he's ridden.

Fully agree 'Son' you’ve hit the nail right on its head, how can anyone ride that heap of ...., crap??? What I think should happen is that all the management and Mr. Bartholemy and his mechanics at Kawasaki should be sacked it’s not the riders it’s the management and how that team is run. There not professional enough for motogp!!!

i bet eckl is laughing his ... off right now.

funny thing is. the kaw seemed to be headed in the right direction. i'm not sure what the .... happened. someone aluded to earlier that ant was copying settings from hacking during the laguna run (which is not a good sign), and hopper has been in the gravel more than ever.

seems neither rider has developed the bike in the right direction possibly?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 23 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i bet eckl is laughing his ... off right now.

funny thing is. the kaw seemed to be headed in the right direction. i'm not sure what the .... happened. someone aluded to earlier that ant was copying settings from hacking during the laguna run (which is not a good sign), and hopper has been in the gravel more than ever.

seems neither rider has developed the bike in the right direction possibly?
It's been said that in trying to address the weaknesses (turning in particular I believe) of last year's bike they killed its strength (drive out of corners) and ended up with complete crap.

I don't think Hopper or West were in charge of developing chains and shifters. Hopkins has been injured, recovering, or having his bike fall apart underneath him all year long. How much can you really develop a crap bike in that situation? Some of that you could blame on luck rather than the bike or him, or just on bad things snowballing. It's the stupid little things that are hurting them most, and make it difficult to fix their bigger issues. If you're going to blame anyone, blame their test riders, engineers, and management. They don't seem to have a clear direction.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 23 2008, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you're going to blame anyone, blame their test riders, engineers, and management. They don't seem to have a clear direction.

It usually takes a decent rider to indicate the direction that is needed. Hopper has been unable to do this from a hospital bed. I think John and Kawasaki were misled to some extent by RDP's speed (and occasionally results) last year. The bike looked ready to go to the next level, but Randy is faster than people thought and apparently had a very peculiar setup.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It usually takes a decent rider to indicate the direction that is needed. Hopper has been unable to do this from a hospital bed.The factory should still deliver their riders a bike sufficiently developed to not be horrible, but then again maybe the kwak actually meets that standard? Hopper's results were going the right way for a while.

My thought there was that Jacque and their other test riders should have done a bit better job helping the engineers come up with a platform that wasn't a significant step backwards from last year's. The bike seems dramatically worse than last year's, and that I blame on the test riders and engineers. If it was just stagnating then I'd start to consider blaming the riders more, but it seems to be a worse situation than that, and clearly Hopper has been in no position to make things better.

I throw management and engineering into this because of the perception that they're spitballing crap like the screamer config rather than taking a systematic and disciplined approach to development. Then again, that might just be PR trying to get them some attention by emphasizing stuff that's not getting huge resources devoted to it.

The bike just seems bad. On the flip side, if stoner had had a big off and hurt himself early in the season, we could be saying the same thing about the Duc, even though he's a strong second in the championship now. The other Ducatis haven't really looked any better than the Kwaks, yet the guy with the fastest pace in the field is riding one. For all we know the Kwak is a real monster in need of the right rider (although I wouldn't bet on it).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think John and Kawasaki were misled to some extent by RDP's speed (and occasionally results) last year. The bike looked ready to go to the next level, but Randy is faster than people thought and apparently had a very peculiar setup.Maybe, but I don't think that's the whole story at all. West jumped on the Kwak midseason and was at least a rear midpacker pretty consistently. He raced 11 races, without any previous experience on the bike, and in 5 of them finished better than his best result this season. That's a notable step backward for someone riding an evolution of the same bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 23 2008, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe, but I don't think that's the whole story at all. West jumped on the Kwak midseason and was at least a rear midpacker pretty consistently. He raced 11 races, without any previous experience on the bike, and in 5 of them finished better than his best result this season. That's a notable step backward for someone riding an evolution of the same bike.

Thats a very good point. I think last years results aren't far from this years if you just get all the satellite Honda's and move them up the rankings a bit, then put two more decent Yamahas in the mix. Honda and Yamaha have the power to move forward quicker and in bigger jumps. Perhaps a result of expereince, resources and better riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 23 2008, 11:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The factory should still deliver their riders a bike sufficiently developed to not be horrible, but then again maybe the kwak actually meets that standard? Hopper's results were going the right way for a while.

My thought there was that Jacque and their other test riders should have done a bit better job helping the engineers come up with a platform that wasn't a significant step backwards from last year's. The bike seems dramatically worse than last year's, and that I blame on the test riders and engineers. If it was just stagnating then I'd start to consider blaming the riders more, but it seems to be a worse situation than that, and clearly Hopper has been in no position to make things better.

I throw management and engineering into this because of the perception that they're spitballing crap like the screamer config rather than taking a systematic and disciplined approach to development. Then again, that might just be PR trying to get them some attention by emphasizing stuff that's not getting huge resources devoted to it.

The bike just seems bad. On the flip side, if stoner had had a big off and hurt himself early in the season, we could be saying the same thing about the Duc, even though he's a strong second in the championship now. The other Ducatis haven't really looked any better than the Kwaks, yet the guy with the fastest pace in the field is riding one. For all we know the Kwak is a real monster in need of the right rider (although I wouldn't bet on it).
Maybe, but I don't think that's the whole story at all. West jumped on the Kwak midseason and was at least a rear midpacker pretty consistently. He raced 11 races, without any previous experience on the bike, and in 5 of them finished better than his best result this season. That's a notable step backward for someone riding an evolution of the same bike.


i agree matt. good reply, and definitely a lot to consider.

the reason i questioned hopper matt and tom, was didn't he have the opportunity to ride / test the bike in the offseason? giving ample time to give input where needed? the reason he has been in the hospital bed, instead of on the bike ... well, is the bike! it keeps spitting him off.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats a very good point. I think last years results aren't far from this years if you just get all the satellite Honda's and move them up the rankings a bit, then put two more decent Yamahas in the mix. Honda and Yamaha have the power to move forward quicker and in bigger jumps. Perhaps a result of expereince, resources and better riders.
Well, out of the tracks that he raced on this year and last, all but laguna and portugal were either wet once or he didn't finish once. On both of those tracks West's times were significantly worse while the winning pace improved or stayed steady. Rossi was 15 sec. quicker at Laguna this year than stoner was last year, West was 41 sec down last year and was lapped this year, with lap times in the low 1:20s that puts hs pace at around a sec a lap worse this year than last year. This year the winner in portugal was 4 sec slower, but west went from 54 sec back to 1:23 back. Again, around second per lap slower. It's not just the better satellite teams improving, he and/or his bike are notably slower.