VALENCIA 2011:RACE, end of era, CIAO MARCO

Bautista caused the crash.



As they approach the corner when riders begin the process of tipping in the bike (see Dovi's leg out) Dovi is ahead--FACT. Rear rider's job is to concede. Bautista did not, causing crash. At this point the argument should be over.



13045:1.png]



A few here saying that Dovi cut across Bautista, that is to say a lateral motion, the video shows the opposite is true. Bautista cuts across in a lateral motion, cutting into Dovi's rear tire. Dovi held his line, see the space between Rossi and Dovi, relatively unchanged (this is the reference you should use) and following the flow of the turn, while Bautista moves closer to Dovi, the next two pictures will show that the rider moving laterally is Bautista NOT Dovi. See Bautista move in the next two images from left to right in the image. In the second picture you can see that Bautista is behind Dovi. The helicopter shot coincides with these front angles as you can see Dovi already has his leg out. Rear rider must concede the line AND Bautista is the one who cut into Dovi's rear tire.

13046:2.png]

13047:3.png]



Notice in this last picture the space between Rossi and Dovi. Still about the same, while Dovi has just ran into the rear of Dovi.

13048:4.png]





Bautista caused this crash.





Gentlemen, with all due respect, now as to the blame, "racing incidents" don't cause themselves as Tom and others have suggested. There is error involved, and those small errors can cause big damage. To call it "collateral damage" as my friend Austin has, again is in the same vein as this attempt at absolving responsibility. Its not normal for crashes to occur out of thin air as Tom suggest that this is part of 'job hazard'. Its a first turn, so we see this more often happen in these spaces, so what is the lesson to be learned? Be more careful because a .... up can result in major consequences, in this case three riders being bumped violently. Mountain out of molehill? I'm pretty sure the teams are not going to look up PS to see the verdict of our opinion. We discuss these incidents as part of the exchange process and give our opinions. My opinion is Bautista caused the crash, Dovi had zero blame. That's my opinion and am willing to back it up with extensive debate and pictures and a massive waste of time making my point. Is that the "mountain" part?



And I'll add, Bautista hasn't had a very good track record this year of keeping his bike on two wheels. I've lost count of his DNFs. And Levi, about the indifference regarding the incident, there is a "mountain" of men and machine all putting in an effort for this one event culminating in a race. All of that is destroyed in an instant when one guy makes a mistake that could have been avoided. Bautista had enough time during the process of approaching the turn as it unfolded to brake and concede to Dovi, (If you watch the video highlight on motogp.com, they give you several angles, focus on Bautista desperately looking for a space moving from left to right); by not conceding when he realized he has no space, he screwed up three other rider's and the entire mountain of effort that had gone into this race. Oh, and about Bautista's apology to Nicky, I also thought the body language expressed a bit of him putting the blame on Dovi.

Mental Anarchist said:

By definition the edge/limit is the place where, if you go past it or your skill level is not enough, a crash happens. How this is different for any type of bike/vehicle makes no sense at all. Go past the limit = crash whether you are on a PW50 or a 800cc MotoGP bike.

Click to expand...

This is not necessarily the case. The limit can be surpassed and result in a loss of time, a wide line or a slide, it doesn't have to result in a nasty crash.

As a racer myself, I know that this is just a racing incident. It's "no-one's fault"...it just happens. End of.

Jumkie said:

Now as to the blame, "racing incidents" don't cause themselves as Tom and others have suggested. There is error involved, and those small errors can cause big damage. To call it "collateral damage" as my friend Austin has, again is in the same vein as this attempt at absolving responsibility. Its not normal for crashes to occur out of thin air as Tom suggest that this is part of 'job hazard'. Its a first turn, so we see this more often happen in these spaces, so what is the lesson to be learned? Be more careful because a .... up can result in major consequences, in this case three riders being bumped violently.

Click to expand...

Man you are off on one aren't you!! I never suggested that incidents cause themselves or are free of fault or blame, i said that the term racing incident can be used alongside these conclusions and that the riders in question should not be penalized or heavily critisized for their actions. In this case neither rider has acted particularly unreasonably, everyone knows the risks of crowding and the potential for contact at the start of a race, so yes they should be careful. But they have to balance this with the fact that they are competing, fiercely for a supperior position in the race. Incidents like this often come down to rides being commited to certain (reasonable) lines and braking points independantly and coming together later, or errors in anticipation of their competitors actions. I agree with you that Dovi is not at all to blame, he was in front and took an acceptable line, but your pictures clearly show he moves towards the outside of the track. Bautistas bike is obviously pitched to turn in relatively early, and you can see him coming toward Dovi, but equally pictures 2 and 3 show Dovi's dangling leg relative to a crease or line of water in the track and he has definitely moved a bikes width or so to our left.

Edwards said:

As a racer myself, I know that this is just a racing incident. It's "no-one's fault"...it just happens. End of.

Click to expand...

Oh and to add to my response to this...the number of crashes i've seen or been in at first corner incidents whilst racing motocross is large...I know motocross is different to Moto GP but the principle remains the same...as Tom just suggested - when things get crowded and the adrenaline is rushing, accidents happen. I don't think anyone can blame Bautista for anything at all...unless you seriously think he took the other riders off on purpose haha

Edwards said:

As a racer myself, I know that this is just a racing incident. It's "no-one's fault"...it just happens. End of.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation. Its good to know that these like this are completely unavoidable. Maybe storks deliver "racing incidents" just like they do with babies. Joke fella, welcome to the forum. However, I totally disagree with your assessment.

Jumkie said:

Thanks for the explanation. Its good to know that these like this are completely unavoidable. Maybe storks deliver "racing incidents" just like they do with babies.

Joke fella, welcome to the forum. However, I totally disagree with your assessment.

Click to expand...

Haha no worries...I guess you are or never have been a racer though

Tom said:

Man you are off on one aren't you!! I never suggested that incidents cause themselves or are free of fault or blame, i said that the term racing incident can be used alongside these conclusions and that the riders in question should not be penalized or heavily critisized for their actions. In this case neither rider has acted particularly unreasonably, everyone knows the risks of crowding and the potential for contact at the start of a race, so yes they should be careful. But they have to balance this with the fact that they are competing, fiercely for a supperior position in the race. Incidents like this often come down to rides being commited to certain (reasonable) lines and braking points independantly and coming together later, or errors in anticipation of their competitors actions.

Click to expand...

Fair enough.

Tom said:

I agree with you that Dovi is not at all to blame, he was in front and took an acceptable line, but your pictures clearly show he moves towards the outside of the track. Bautistas bike is obviously pitched to turn in relatively early, and you can see him coming toward Dovi, but equally pictures 2 and 3 show Dovi's dangling leg relative to a crease or line of water in the track and he has definitely moved a bikes width or so to our left.

Click to expand...

Dovi and Rossi are moving in tandem toward the outside of the track because the line for that turn calls for it, Bautista turns into Dovi and clips his rear tire. The rider moving laterally relative to the tandem is Bautista. That's the point I'm making. You are saying Dovi moved out, well yes, so did Rossi, this is why they stayed at nearly the same distance from eachother, WHILE Bautista moves into Dovi. Cause of crash? Bautista 100%. That is, on both arguments: 1. Dovi was ahead FACT. 2. Bautista moved laterally relative to the race line that Dovi and Rossi were correctly following. FACT.

Edwards said:

Haha no worries...I guess you are or never have been a racer though

Click to expand...

I've never been a cattle farmer, but I know the smell of .........



If I had a dime for every "racer" that cited his insight, I'd have about 25 bucks.

Jumkie said:

I've never been a cattle farmer, but I know the smell of .........

If I had a dime for every "racer" that cited his insight, I'd have about 25 bucks.

Click to expand...

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

Jumkie said:

Fair enough.





Dovi and Rossi are moving in tandem toward the outside of the track because the line for that turn calls for it, Bautista turns into Dovi and clips his rear tire. The rider moving laterally relative to the tandem is Bautista. That's the point I'm making. You are saying Dovi moved out, well yes, so did Rossi, this is why they stayed at nearly the same distance from eachother, WHILE Bautista moves into Dovi. Cause of crash? Bautista 100%. That is, on both arguments: 1. Dovi was ahead FACT. 2. Bautista moved laterally relative to the race line that Dovi and Rossi were correctly following. FACT.

Click to expand...

Since when did the race line matter in the first corner of motorbike racing? Haha

Jumkie said:

Cause of crash? Bautista 100%. That is, on both arguments: 1. Dovi was ahead FACT. 2. Bautista moved laterally relative to the race line that Dovi and Rossi were correctly following. FACT.

Click to expand...

I agree, Buatista is definitely going in early, and while it could be called a bit of a squeeze because Dovi is coming slightly outside to follow a correct racing line, Alvaro doesn't seem to be anywhere near Rossi, his space limiting factor on the other side. I think we differ about this racing incident thing though, because i would say that Bautista does not deserve critisism for his part in this, it could happen to anyone. Hell it happend to Rossi a few weeks ago, happend to Lorenzo at Philip Island 09 and i'm sure there are countless other examples we could think of

Edwards said:

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

Click to expand...

I've raced. Now explain.

Edwards said:

Oh and to add to my response to this...the number of crashes i've seen or been in at first corner incidents whilst racing motocross is large...I know motocross is different to Moto GP but the principle remains the same...as Tom just suggested - when things get crowded and the adrenaline is rushing, accidents happen. I don't think anyone can blame Bautista for anything at all...unless you seriously think he took the other riders off on purpose haha

Click to expand...

The principle is about the same as comparing Nascar to Open wheel. You make contact in MX, you usually move on, you make contact in open wheel, you are usually done. Now I see what you mean about you "racing experience", sorry to tell you buddy, but I don't think it applies much outside of the fact I agree that the heat of the moment pumps up the adrenaline. I once hear a motorcycle roadracer friend of mine say this: "Rubbing is racing, but that usually applies to Nascar, on motorcycles it usually means somebody is going down because a mistake has occurred." He was a racer too.

Jumkie said:

I've raced. Now explain.

Click to expand...

Tricycles don't count.

Jumkie said:

The principle is about the same as comparing Nascar to Open wheel. You make contact in MX, you usually move on, you make contact in open wheel, you are usually done. Now I see what you mean about you "racing experience", sorry to tell you buddy, but I don't think it applies much outside of the fact I agree that the heat of the moment pumps up the adrenaline. I once hear a motorcycle roadracer friend of mine say this: "Rubbing is racing, but that usually applies to Nascar, on motorcycles it usually means somebody is going down because a mistake has occurred." He was a racer too.

Click to expand...

Back on topic, my opinion as is many people's opinion is that yes Bautista did cause the crash, but that should just be the end of it and he should receive no criticism. If he does deserve criticism, he would have received a penalty of some sort.

Jums,



I haven't seen teh full race yet and only seen a few replays of the incident in question but your front on shots show that both Dovi and Bautista moved from their lines (use as a reference the track join and not the gap between VR and Dovi)



Will reserve full judgement for another time and place and until I have reviewed all video, seen the data, compared which of the riders girlfriends is cuter, perved on Lauren Vickers and left work







Gaz

APE King said:

Gutted for Ben too but deserved counts for nothing and as much as I was routing for Ben it was great to see that stoner rode from the heart with half a lap to and went for it.

Click to expand...

Was sorry to see it snatched away at the last moment. That said, I suspect the Pie Man must have known in the back of his mind that there was a very high possibility that Stoner was utilizing him as the proverbial "canary in a coal mine", a measuring stick to see what the changing rate of tire to tarmac adhesion rating was - before doing exactly what he did.

Edwards said:

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

Click to expand...

I don't mean to seem rude but your position on this seems fairly (perhaps overly) simplistic and certainly far from difficult to grasp. I highly doubt Jumkie has any trouble understanding the concept of 'no-ones fault', but it is a common line of reasoning that if nobody did anything wrong then nothing bad would have happened.

Tom said:

I don't mean to seem rude but your position on this seems fairly (perhaps overly) simplistic and certainly far from difficult to grasp. I highly doubt Jumkie has any trouble understanding the concept of 'no-ones fault', but it is a common line of reasoning that if nobody did anything wrong then nothing bad would have happened.

Click to expand...

I am simplistic. Easiest way to be haha