VALENCIA 2011:RACE, end of era, CIAO MARCO

Also, I have to point out that I watched the race with BBC coverage today as couldn't find any torrents with Eurosport (sure enough, as soon as I finished watching, all the races with Eurosport commentary were up). It was laughable some of the things they were saying. Even after all of the replays of the first corner incident, they continued to say that Bautista locked the front and that's why he went down. They didn't realize he and Dovi had touched until they saw Bautista make the hand gestures in the garage.

levigarrett said:

That test rider tests which machines? How many hours of time does said rider have in the saddle of a Yamaha GP machine? Under those circumstances, I think Hayes performed fairly admirably. These are idiosyncratic machines, that must be taken into consideration no?

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You've certainly got a point there. However, test riders are test riders for a reason. Obviously they give great feedback and are fast, but if they gave great feedback and are fast enough to be competitive, they'd have a race seat and not a test seat.

Bubble.

levigarrett said:

Ok, fine. Either way. You could be right. I don't know. To me, it looked like he felt culpable and made the appropriate sporting apologies.



I'm losing interest in this discussion. The season is over and frankly none of the participants in this accident has had their season made or broken by this weekend's events.



I'll leave this blame game to you gentleman.

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Well peeps who play the assumption game can hardly take the high-ground over those who play the blame game

Austin said:

Josh Hayes certainly didn't do himself any harm with that result. That said, I was a little disappointed to see him finish 10 seconds behind a test rider. Seventh is a very respectable result, but correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Aoyama and Barbera got caught up in the first corner, Abraham fell off, and I have to believe that Elias and Capirossi had a coming together or both ran on because both were in front of Nakasuga and Hayes just a few laps prior to the finish. A great result for sure from Hayes, but in normal conditions, I think he's lucky to get a point. Sorry to be the buzzkill.

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Geez man.

stiefel said:

I'm not saying that the 800's are not crash prone, but how is today's incident different from something like catalunya 2006? Don't think today's accident could have happened just as easily with 1000's or 990's or 500's.

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Sure, this particular incident wasn't necessarily down to the formula, but again the number of starters let alone the number of finishers just seemed a reflection of the whole thing.

chopperman said:

Well peeps who play the assumption game can hardly take the high-ground over those who play the blame game

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Well now, I do love this forum! Truly.



What a collection of ........ we have here! I say that with the greatest affection.



Silverstone 2012, mark your calendar!

levigarrett said:

Well now, I do love this forum! Truly.

What a collection of ........ we have here! I say that with the greatest affection.



Silverstone 2012, mark your calendar!

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look forward to it bro, then us 2 ........ can share a pint of guiness together, hopefully in warmer weather.

Jumkie said:

Geez man.

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I apologized for being a buzzkill, what else do you want from me?

Big respect to spies for the ride he did and for keeping me awake.

Austin said:

Also, I have to point out that I watched the race with BBC coverage today as couldn't find any torrents with Eurosport (sure enough, as soon as I finished watching, all the races with Eurosport commentary were up). It was laughable some of the things they were saying. Even after all of the replays of the first corner incident, they continued to say that Bautista locked the front and that's why he went down. They didn't realize he and Dovi had touched until they saw Bautista make the hand gestures in the garage.









You've certainly got a point there. However, test riders are test riders for a reason. Obviously they give great feedback and are fast, but if they gave great feedback and are fast enough to be competitive, they'd have a race seat and not a test seat.

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Not to belabor it overlong, but test riders are generally guys who have formerly been competitive in Japanese racing series

and that they get paid week in and week out to ride high-strung 800s with carbon brakes and Bridgestones would in my

mind constitute a considerable advantage over a guy who's never raced the track or been on a GP bike.





BTW - you'll never kill my buzz. Always enjoy your posts. Hope we get to meet up next year.

Rog, watch the reply again. There is no doubt Bautista is to blame here. Too hot, and he's the one cutting into Dovi's rear. Watch the helo shot. Alvaro is ahead in the straight but by the time they reach the end Dovi is in front (fact), therefore Alvaro has been beat to the turn and must concede. Now take a look again, which of the two riders Dovi or Bautista looks to be searching and erratic, the answer, Bautista, he's ben caught out and in haste aims for a space between Rossi and Dovi, the space didn't exist. Dovi maintains the line the entire time, you can see Bautista searching for a space. He is the one cutting across the track from Rossi's right to left. Dovi had the space. Bautista was behind, and had to concede, he didn't and cause the accident.

Keshav said:

Not to belabor it overlong, but test riders are generally guys who have formerly been competitive in Japanese racing series

and that they get paid week in and week out to ride high-strung 800s with carbon brakes and Bridgestones would in my

mind constitute a considerable advantage over a guy who's never raced the track or been on a GP bike.





BTW - you'll never kill my buzz. Always enjoy your posts. Hope we get to meet up next year.

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Oh, absolutely. There's no doubt these guys are fast. Many were or are very quick riders in Japanese championships, some are former GP stars. And knowing the bike as intimately as they do is going to give them an advantage over someone who's never ridden the bike or the tires or the brakes. My point was that test riders aren't an accurate measurement of a GP rider. Coming into the weekend, I thought if Hayes finished above Nakasuga, then I would consider it a successful weekend. Like I said, his result was very impressive, I just think it needs to kept in perspective.



And hoping to do Laguna this year so with any luck, I'll see you there.

Talpa said:

inconsistent adjudication-one now, with recent events and hindsight only needs to look back at the punching and fist waving/baulking Stoner tantrums for prime examples of the latter.

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I don't like the formula either despite stoner basically dominating it, but your slip/hatred of stoner is showing again.



Despite being the most dangerous rider out there according to you, he has somehow managed not to crash into any other riders for 5 full seasons now. Like rossi in this regard, his record speaks for itself, and good management rather than good luck would seem the likely explanation. You have also called his underlying concern ie closing speed/differential speed on the racing line baseless and something he should just accept; marquez rather graphically demonstrated his point and the stewards belatedly recognised it.



My immediate reaction was that dovi should get a drive through if the stewards were to be consistent, but replays were less conclusive and I didn't think the other drive through should have been applied anyway.

So gutted for Ben Spies...deserved the win...but Stoner is the luckiest guy on the planet! Imagine throwing it away after a 10 second lead...even in the horrible conditions.

michaelm said:

Despite being the most dangerous rider out there according to you, he has somehow managed not to crash into any other riders for 5 full seasons now.

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It's pretty impressive considering how hard Stoner rides. Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few close calls. First was the clash with Nicky at the Andretti hairpin in 2007, but that was primarily the result of new bikes, new tires, and new lines during the first lap. The other close call was the late pass on Pedrosa (IIRC) at Motegi in 2009 (?). He held up his hand after that pass though.



Despite his reputation for using questionable social decorum during the race weekends, he's been a model citizen during the races.

Jumkie said:

I'm not a fan of the term "racing incident" because it generally absolves riders of responsibility.

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I disagree totally, I think there is a certain amount of error that has to be accepted in a situation where taking risks is fundamental. I don't think the term racing incident negates any blame or responsibility from an incident, but i think it stresses that no external intervention is required and that error(s) or mistake(s) leading to the incident were not the result of unreasonable behaviour/risk. Sometimes consequences are disproportionate to the actions causing them and as unfortunate as they might be, can be put down to an occupational hazard in certain contexts.

levigarrett said:

he'd not have made that walk to the red pit box if he felt the incident was not his doing.

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That is not necessarily true, he may have just wanted to explain to them what he thought happened to avoid them harbouring resentment towards him for an incident he felt he didn't cause

chopperman said:

Well peeps who play the assumption game can hardly take the high-ground over those who play the blame game

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When you assume you make an ... of u & me

Edwards said:

So gutted for Ben Spies...deserved the win...but Stoner is the luckiest guy on the planet! Imagine throwing it away after a 10 second lead...even in the horrible conditions.

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pfft, lucky my .... Those guys put it on the line in the conditions and Stoner got the job done.

Gutted for Ben too but deserved counts for nothing and as much as I was routing for Ben it was great to see that stoner rode from the heart with half a lap to and went for it.

Jumkie said:

Rog, watch the reply again. There is no doubt Bautista is to blame here. Too hot, and he's the one cutting into Dovi's rear. Watch the helo shot. Alvaro is ahead in the straight but by the time they reach the end Dovi is in front (fact), therefore Alvaro has been beat to the turn and must concede. Now take a look again, which of the two riders Dovi or Bautista looks to be searching and erratic, the answer, Bautista, he's ben caught out and in haste aims for a space between Rossi and Dovi, the space didn't exist. Dovi maintains the line the entire time, you can see Bautista searching for a space. He is the one cutting across the track from Rossi's right to left. Dovi had the space. Bautista was behind, and had to concede, he didn't and cause the accident.

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You know Bautista was on the blue bike and Dovi was on the orange one , right ?? Because what you discribe is the oppisite that showing on my TV. Dovi may have been infront but about 10 feet accross to Bautistas left. By the time Dovi moved that 10 feet to his right he was in front by all but the whole of his rear wheel. Bautista did not change line, dovi did . Dovi clipped Bautistas front.

mylexicon said:

Despite his reputation for using questionable social decorum during the race weekends, he's been a model citizen during the races.

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I don't defend his antics/ the way he was making his point earlier in the season at all. But he did have a point, and the bad manners/questionable social decorum occurred after he had slowed down to avoid a closing speed problem rather than being significantly dangerous in themselves imo.



I do think he tries to be fair about passing manouevres in races and at the very least only passes with full control of his bike.

michaelm said:

You may like the 800s barry, many others don't.



No-one is saying you have to hate them, but others are also entitled to their opinions. They have always been too liable to crashing when ridden at all close to the edge for my liking, and today's first corner incident, with thankfully little or no injury to the riders concerned, confirmed my view the things are cursed.

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By definition the edge/limit is the place where, if you go past it or your skill level is not enough, a crash happens. How this is different for any type of bike/vehicle makes no sense at all. Go past the limit = crash whether you are on a PW50 or a 800cc MotoGP bike.

Evolution said:

So Dovi cuts in front of Bautista, touching his front tyre, cuasing 4 riders to crash and still allowed to continue to 3rd? So much for politics LOL. Why dont they equipe all the Repsol riders with machine guns in the front or with oil dumping trick in the back?

If Rossi pulled this stunt, he would have been flamed for ever on this forum. And Simoncheli RIP was forced to go through pit for less than this.

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Mate, get over it, it was Bautista's fault as plain as day. Dovi was in front and it was a first turn incident. Using your theory it could just as easily been Rossi's fault as he was the other part of the wedge and on the same trajectory as Dovi. Bautista had his line closed up and was no riding to allow room if that happened.

Talpa said:

Well, once again I found myself turning off the Motogp race this season after 3 laps, thank god its over, thank god the 800's are over-it seems as though the weather semi-saved the race but I still have no inkling to watch the recording. This has been undoubtedly the worst season in my living memory littered with boredom, tragedy, horrendous injury and inconsistent adjudication-one now, with recent events and hindsight only needs to look back at the punching and fist waving/baulking Stoner tantrums for prime examples of the latter.



It really is farcical, when removing 4 bikes in the first corner, what is left for spectators? And to mention again the politics, a closer look at the Le Mans incident and the subsequent vilification of Sic, Dovi's move yesterday was mind numbingly stupid, and Alvaro didn't help either yet nothing was done-how anyone wasn't hurt is beyond me.



Motogp has lost a lot this year, bleeding uncontrollably from most of it's self-inflicted wounds-and i don't see it recovering any time soon.

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Oh, Rossi crashed they didn't stop the race so he could start again and because he wasn't in the race you grabbed your dummy and went to bed with a warm milk. ....... hypocritical baby coming on here sprouting how you are a changed boy after the Sic incident and then sprouting your hatred at the first opportunity. I hope you don't watch and give up on the sport as MotoGP doesn't need tossers like you. Thankfully you and your like will be gone in a couple of years when Rossi retires.

Evolution said:

re-writing history is lamer. Do explain how is it Bautista's fault? In the above angle re-play it is so clear that Bautista is holding his line, while Dovi just cuts in front of him, not just a little, but like a couple of meters move. He touches Bautista front, game over. What should have Bautista done? Read Dovi's mind and move out of the way of 'sacred Honda'?

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What should Dovi done? Look in his side mirrors? Oh thats right its a race bike and they don't have them. Maybe he should have read Bautista's mind and known that Bautista was coming in too hot and should have cleared space for him. When I look out side the sky is blue. You can argue it is green all you like but it doesn't change the reality