VALENCIA 2011:RACE, end of era, CIAO MARCO

Evolution said:

If Rossi pulled this stunt, he would have been flamed for ever on this forum.

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Rossi DID pull this stunt - watch Motegi again.

Edwards said:

As a racer myself, I know that this is just a racing incident. It's "no-one's fault"...it just happens. End of.

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Edwards said:

Haha no worries...I guess you are or never have been a racer though

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Edwards said:

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

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What a ..... Jump right in with the, "I'm a racer, you're not na na na na boo boo" ..... Many racers at many different levels here and many non racers who comprehend very well the dynamics of racing who all understood what you eventually come out and say, IF fault is to be divvied, then it goes to Alvaro.

Edwards said:

Your opinion enitrely.

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Mine too.

Austin said:

Yeah, I see that. When I use [racing incident], I don't absolve any of blame. Just that it's not malicious, nor uncommon. I'm glad we have a medium in which we can split hairs like this.

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+1. My take exactly.

What a great race that was......after thinking it was going to be another snoozefest it threw up some fascinating battles all throughout the field.



I felt Ben fully deserved that win and was dissapointed when he lost - Stoner literally stole it from under his nose and he just will not settle for second best raising the bar this season to a level others are finding extremely difficult to reach - good luck to his rivals next year as they will need it to simply keep up.



Josh Hayes.....brilliant effort. He showed true grit, guts and intellect to ride in the manner he did in such atrocious conditions all weekend. He stayed upright, learnt the inticacies of a MGP missile and finished top 10 in his debut ride - cant do much better than that. Even though he is 36 I would love to see him given a chance to be a regular in the top class. His performance should be a wake up call that any teams looking at riders for the top class need to consider the Australian and American guys have great potential with their with dirt tracker backgrounds. They have shown if presented with the right opportunities they can go on to be world beaters....



The first corner incident was probably about 70% Bautista 30% Dovi in terms of blame. They both moved across into each others paths. Dovi being in front has the racing line and can be absolved of some responsibility because of it....pity so many others were caught up in the incident and Ducati were the big losers in all of this. Summed up their dreadful year in one corner.



Fitting that Rossi and Simo ended up tied for points in the end. But 139 points in a season is not something you expect of a rider with Rossis credentials. If Rossi/Ducati is not within a second of the Yamaha/Honda times in the 1000cc tests tomorrow he is looking at another horrible season next year...they havent really improved the bike at all and in fact you could argue it has gone backwards.



I honestly dont think next years 1000cc bikes are going to prove to be a magic bullet in curing racings current woes...in fact we may see an even more dominant performance from Stoner....he excels in finding speed and performance from the first instant he gets on a new machine as he proved that fact in 2007 and again this year - those skills will stand him in good stead during the initial transition from the 800cc formula. I expect Jorge to be his biggest challenge but I also expect to see Ben on the podium regularly and fighting for the title.



Finally congratulations to Casey Stoner on a stellar year - complete vindication of his talent and a wake up call to all of his critics - he has left his detractors with very little to smile about this year. He began the 800cc era with a victory and ended it in the exact same manner whilst also bookending the same era with 2 dominant championships - without question the premiere rider in the premiere class.

I dont know if it made any difference, but Bautista had a little tank slapper on his run down to turn one. He may have slung the brake pistons in just a hair, causing him to panic just a bit when he grabbed the brake. Even if this is not the case, it is up to the trailing rider to position himself not to hit someone in front of him. The best replay i have seen clearly shows Dovi ahead, keeps his line, and Bautista moves into him.

Paul Denning '

"It's obviously a very disappointing way to end the season, but frankly speaking I'm not particularly upset because all four riders involved are okay and we've seen recently how dangerous that type of accident can be - so we can all be very thankful that all the guys escaped unharmed," said Denning.

"I don't think the crash was anybody's fault, it was just too many bikes arriving at one bit of Tarmac, at differing speeds, on a slippery track - it's racing and it can happen."

Talpa said:

Well, once again I found myself turning off the Motogp race this season after 3 laps, thank god its over, thank god the 800's are over-it seems as though the weather semi-saved the race but I still have no inkling to watch the recording. This has been undoubtedly the worst season in my living memory littered with boredom, tragedy, horrendous injury and inconsistent adjudication-one now, with recent events and hindsight only needs to look back at the punching and fist waving/baulking Stoner tantrums for prime examples of the latter.



It really is farcical, when removing 4 bikes in the first corner, what is left for spectators? And to mention again the politics, a closer look at the Le Mans incident and the subsequent vilification of Sic, Dovi's move yesterday was mind numbingly stupid, and Alvaro didn't help either yet nothing was done-how anyone wasn't hurt is beyond me.



Motogp has lost a lot this year, bleeding uncontrollably from most of it's self-inflicted wounds-and i don't see it recovering any time soon.

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You should try antidepressants talps, as I said somewhere else, 1000cc isn't going to get rid of either Stoner or Lorenzo.



Racing will continue to be "boring" for years now.



I note that the battle between Pedro and Dovi, Abraham and Cal and then the last few laps Ben and Casey were great viewing. I like Ben and I still would have thought it was a primo race if he won.

Keshav said:

Since I like Bautista a lot more, I'm blaming Dovi.

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Perfect logic! I like Bautista more but I also like Dovi as well so I am going to split it up and have a 60/40 apportionment in favour of Dovi, I mean Bautista....really who cares, no one got hurt (except talps).

Edwards said:

Haha no worries...I guess you are or never have been a racer though

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This is the internet.



We are all well to do handsome well hung motorcycling and (add other interests) champions and only to be fair to the likes of Rossi, Jorge and Casey we decide to stay at home and watch the race rather than dominating the series ourselves.



This is despite the fact we are all 7 foot tall cage fighters with PhD's.



You should know us all know, chicks dig us and blokes want to be us. We are all highly experienced racers, more intelligent than the generation before us and wiser than the one that follows us.



And lion tamers.



I love the internet.

Mental Anarchist said:

By definition the edge/limit is the place where, if you go past it or your skill level is not enough, a crash happens. How this is different for any type of bike/vehicle makes no sense at all. Go past the limit = crash whether you are on a PW50 or a 800cc MotoGP bike.

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We have had this discussion before. In close proximity to the edge is where all premier class racing, at the point end anyway, has always occurred and where it should occur. My problem with these bikes, whether due to the current electronics or whatever else, is that they seem to give little warning even to the best riders in the world when about to go over the edge. Stoner is arguably the exception, but even he appeared to have edge determination problems on the 2010 ducati.

This is what happens when you put former 250 riders on the grid from Spain and Italy.

Mental Anarchist said:

I recommend people watch the full post race press conference. The final questions to Stoner Spies and Dovi cover the end of prototypes and also the extra test days.



End of prototype - none like it and Stoner basically says he is not interested in continuing if and when they go to "Touring Cars" as he puts it.



Extra Testing - all 3 of them say it is not necessary and they don't want it. Dovi says 2 more days a year would be good but not the unlimited (tyres permitting). This is a surprise to me as it was argued here that ALL the riders want more testing. If ALL the riders want more testing why then from a sample of 3 (1/6th of the field) none of them wanted it?

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Well, i guess my point of view and the best rider in the world are one in the same. These guys know what it means to race prototypes, its the machines that make GP, not the show. Hyping the show cannot cover mediocre machines. Wouldnt it be something if your best rider retired because of uninspiring machinery. Wait a minute, seems i recall one of the most successful SB riders in the history of the sport did just that, and you never heard of the series again. Must be something about them ....... Aussies huh

michaelm said:

We have had this discussion before. In close proximity to the edge is where all premier class racing, at the point end anyway, has always occurred and where it should occur. My problem with these bikes, whether due to the current electronics or whatever else, is that they seem to give little warning even to the best riders in the world when about to go over the edge. Stoner is arguably the exception, but even he appeared to have edge determination problems on the 2010 ducati.

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I disagree completely. Almost every race we here riders comment how they had moments and caught them without falling. The speed the bikes are going everything happens faster then normal. If riders aren't able to react fast enough consistently then they need to improve or go to a slower class.



Just because the Ducati lets go without warning that does not make the class bad.



The other factor to consider is that maybe the fastest riders are faster compared to the average MotoGP rider then ever before in the history of the sport. Those average riders are having to try harder and ride closer to the edge to compete and therefore are falling more.



All of this is down to quality of rider more than equipment in my view. I also think that rider depth is poor due to the pond that they fish for riders in being way to small and politically motivated resulting in a poor quality of rider making it to the top. I reckon you could probably find 10 riders in Moto2 who could beat Marquez if given the same opportunity.

Jumkie said:

Correct, I believe we disagree on the "racing incident" part. I think you and I have alway disagreed on this and recall several times exchanging thought. If I remember, we disagreed when Checa torpedoed Max Neucher.



When and error is made and the ride himself is taken out, the punishment is generally the DNF. When a rider makes a mistake and destroys the race for others and causes injury, then I believe criticism is fair and justified. I'm not hanging Bautista, I haven't said anything about his character or attacked him personally. The thread is here for you to review. I'd say I even said the opposite, that is, I applauded him for going over to see on Nicky and even attempted a hug.

I'm just arguing this idea that racing incidents happen for a reason, and sometimes there is clearly blame. They don't cause themselves. Somebody made a mistake. If that is because the situation was tight and slit second, that only contributes to a greater possibility of mistake, but the argument seems to absolve riders of responsibility simply because of the tight situation. This is the lesson here. To dismiss it as a first turn incident is to suggest its mere luck when they all get through safely. That doesn't happen by miracle either.

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On the other hand, luck is, as everybody can agree, a major contributing factor when that many people are all vying to get safely through turn one, while riding the world's fastest bikes on cold tires before all their competitors. It isn't as if the whole thing is choreographed in advance.

Mental Anarchist said:

I recommend people watch the full post race press conference. The final questions to Stoner Spies and Dovi cover the end of prototypes and also the extra test days.



End of prototype - none like it and Stoner basically says he is not interested in continuing if and when they go to "Touring Cars" as he puts it.



Extra Testing - all 3 of them say it is not necessary and they don't want it. Dovi says 2 more days a year would be good but not the unlimited (tyres permitting). This is a surprise to me as it was argued here that ALL the riders want more testing. If ALL the riders want more testing why then from a sample of 3 (1/6th of the field) none of them wanted it?

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I don't think prototypes are going anywhere. If the FIM requires bespoke production equipment instead of prototypes, the bespoke engines will have more in common with MotoGP prototype engines than series production SBK engines. The major technological casualty in the switch to bespoke production engines will be pneumatic valves. That explains the rev limit rumors that have been floating around.



Production and prototype are manufacturing/sales concepts. The concepts have little to do with specific racing technologies or performance potential.

So im assumimg since Marco and Rossi tied in points, Marco will be rewarded with 6th in the championship on a tie breaker of best finishes. Rossi will be placed 7th

michaelm said:

We have had this discussion before. In close proximity to the edge is where all premier class racing, at the point end anyway, has always occurred and where it should occur. My problem with these bikes, whether due to the current electronics or whatever else, is that they seem to give little warning even to the best riders in the world when about to go over the edge. Stoner is arguably the exception, but even he appeared to have edge determination problems on the 2010 ducati.

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Not sure. 990's had plenty of crashes though. Was not so good a time for McCoy to be on a Kawasaki, or Edwards on an Aprilia Cube, Bayliss had a terrible year in 2004 crashing the Ducati out of 8 races. Or even Stoner on a Honda. 2006 w/c was decided by two crashes in the last two races.



All in all, not a massive difference. 2006, 22 listed retirements for the top ten. 2011, 24 retirements. 2005, 27 retirements.



Anyway what do I know? Nothing, better to read what he thinks...........................



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/10/28/settling_an_argument_casey_stoner_talks_.html



http://motomatters.com/interview/2010/11/03/casey_stoner_on_electronics_ducati_s_scr.html

birdman said:

Not sure. 990's had plenty of crashes though. Was not so good a time for McCoy to be on a Kawasaki, or Edwards on an Aprilia Cube, Bayliss had a terrible year in 2004 crashing the Ducati out of 8 races. Or even Stoner on a Honda. 2006 w/c was decided by two crashes in the last two races.

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My personal opinion is that much of the crashing in today's MotoGP is a result of the extremely stiff Bridgestones. In attempt to construct a tire that will offer optimal grip for the duration, they've constructed something so stiff and hard, that there is little flex or warning. From what I gathered in listening to Toby and Jules during qualifying, the next generation of Bridgestones are said to be even squishier than the prototypes that were tested with such positive reaction at Estoril back in April/May. That should alleviate some of the crashes we've seen this season.



But the reason I've quoted this text is that one of your examples is a rookie learning his trade, just like Lorenzo and Simoncelli in the 800 era. And the McCoy and Edwards examples, those are two motorcycles that were in their infancy. The original ZX-RR was flat out not any good. I believe they scrapped it and started over with Suter for 2004, although I could be mistaken. And the Cube, well that was a decade ahead of its time. If today's electronics had been around a decade ago, that bike would have been competitive. But they weren't, and the bike was a disaster. The 2003 Suzuki GSV-R was similarly afflicted.



Good Bayliss example, he just fell off a lot. Another good example was Sete Gibernau post Qatar 2004. It would have been comical how often he fell off if it wasn't so sad.

"In the first corner we all arrived together and I was between Andrea and Valentino. Unfortunately Andrea hit my front wheel with his rear tyre and I couldn't do anything to save the crash." Bautista



Looks like Alvaro has taken a page out of Kallio's alternate view of reality when it comes to crashing.

Austin said:

My personal opinion is that much of the crashing in today's MotoGP is a result of the extremely stiff Bridgestones. In attempt to construct a tire that will offer optimal grip for the duration, they've constructed something so stiff and hard, that there is little flex or warning. From what I gathered in listening to Toby and Jules during qualifying, the next generation of Bridgestones are said to be even squishier than the prototypes that were tested with such positive reaction at Estoril back in April/May. That should alleviate some of the crashes we've seen this season.



But the reason I've quoted this text is that one of your examples is a rookie learning his trade, just like Lorenzo and Simoncelli in the 800 era. And the McCoy and Edwards examples, those are two motorcycles that were in their infancy. The original ZX-RR was flat out not any good. I believe they scrapped it and started over with Suter for 2004, although I could be mistaken. And the Cube, well that was a decade ahead of its time. If today's electronics had been around a decade ago, that bike would have been competitive. But they weren't, and the bike was a disaster. The 2003 Suzuki GSV-R was similarly afflicted.



Good Bayliss example, he just fell off a lot. Another good example was Sete Gibernau post Qatar 2004. It would have been comical how often he fell off if it wasn't so sad.

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You are correct. But still they had no need to push those bikes until they crashed, yet they did anyway. So they crash on under-developed bikes in infancy, they crash over developed bikes with too much electronics. They crashed on a perfect developed V5. Stoner crashed on 125 and 250. They just plain old crash because going too fast is fun for them I guess?



I dont understand why they cant have more tyre options. Why not either stiff or soft or medium or whatever the hell rider wants?

Btw, after reading the Sunday round up on motomatters and Ryder notes on superbikeplanet, you'd think Josh Hayes was invisible. AMA never gonna get any respect, though they keep sending boys who make an impact on the international scene. Not to mention the boys who couldn't cut it in the AMA then go on to wins WSS championships, etc. I had to turn to crash.net to find something on Hayes' performance in the race. WTF



I spoke to one AMA crewchief, and asked him Thursday what were his thoughts on Hayes for the GP weekend. he said, top 10, without hesitation. Really, I said to him, Hayes has no prior knowledge on the bike, track, and tires. He replied, Hayes has plenty of knowledge! And added, he's been riding at a high level for years in the AMA. He went on to say, something that the Euros and journalist never seem to get is that in the AMA, the tracks are very tricky and the competitiveness of the field sharpens rider's racecraft. They go to European tracks and they realize that the tracks are easier to negotiate than American tracks. He said, in the States, you screw up one corner and you've messed up the three corners that follow because they are very connected and dependent. He said, European tracks are designed so safe and wide that AMA riders find the tracks relatively easier to rider than the ones here in the States. We had a long conversation about this, and he had some very interesting points, insight that I think he is correct in saying gets missed by those covering the sport.



He also mentioned something that I've long held, he said, MotoGP is not about getting the best riders, its about getting the best riders that can be marketable. He said Josh Hayes would be a upper third rider given a decent ride even at 36. He also said, Mladin would have tore up Wsbk and been an easy front runner in GP, but he never could be guaranteed a competitive bike, and he wasn't willing to ride as hard to only arrive upper one third knowing he could win given a factory machine. Plus, he added, he was making lots of money in the AMA, and that was just to comfy to let go. Just sharing somebody else's opinion here. One that I particularly think has good insight.

Yeah yeah e get it Jumkie, an AMA superbike rider is almost as good as a 9 year old Kurri kid.



But Kurri kids grow up and get faster



As much as you want to have a .... here about the AMA riders ......... they don't come in and wipe the floor with those that are there by any means.





Get your hand of it you ..... ........ or all your friends hands off it, as it may seem the case is



WHy anybody would place the likes of Hayes or Bostrom on a gp bike instead of say Ant West or Vermulen is beyond me ( other than the fact that their are many more to .... over Hayes )

Jumkie said:

Btw, after reading the Sunday round up on motomatters and Ryder notes on superbikeplanet, you'd think Josh Hayes was invisible. AMA never gonna get any respect, though they keep sending boys who make an impact on the international scene. Not to mention the boys who couldn't cut it in the AMA then go on to wins WSS championships, etc. I had to turn to crash.net to find something on Hayes' performance in the race. WTF



I spoke to one AMA crewchief, and asked him Thursday what were his thoughts on Hayes for the GP weekend. he said, top 10, without hesitation. Really, I said to him, Hayes has no prior knowledge on the bike, track, and tires. He replied, Hayes has plenty of knowledge! And added, he's been riding at a high level for years in the AMA. He went on to say, something that the Euros and journalist never seem to get is that in the AMA, the tracks are very tricky and the competitiveness of the field sharpens rider's racecraft. They go to European tracks and they realize that the tracks are easier to negotiate than American tracks. He said, in the States, you screw up one corner and you've messed up the three corners that follow because they are very connected and dependent. He said, European tracks are designed so safe and wide that AMA riders find the tracks relatively easier to rider than the ones here in the States. We had a long conversation about this, and he had some very interesting points, insight that I think he is correct in saying gets missed by those covering the sport.



He also mentioned something that I've long held, he said, MotoGP is not about getting the best riders, its about getting the best riders that can be marketable. He said Josh Hayes would be a upper third rider given a decent ride even at 36. He also said, Mladin would have tore up Wsbk and been an easy front runner in GP, but he never could be guaranteed a competitive bike, and he wasn't willing to ride as hard to only arrive upper one third knowing he could win given a factory machine. Plus, he added, he was making lots of money in the AMA, and that was just to comfy to let go. Just sharing somebody else's opinion here. One that I particularly think has good insight.

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I am with you Jum. The problem of a lack of racing in MotoGP is that the field is full of prima donna euro riders. Chuck some hard arsed Aussies and Yanks in there and the sport will be much better. Your tracks sound like ours in that they are not the beautifully manicured ribbons of asphalt that they metro boys grow up on. I reckon we could fill the grid (not hard) with Aussie riders that would give their left nut for a crack and would throw down if given that crack.