VALENCIA 2011:RACE, end of era, CIAO MARCO

Edwards said:

If he does deserve criticism, he would have received a penalty of some sort.

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We obviously have a very similar take on this incident, but you have a lot of faith in race direction!

Tom said:

I agree, Buatista is definitely going in early, and while it could be called a bit of a squeeze because Dovi is coming slightly outside to follow a correct racing line, Alvaro doesn't seem to be anywhere near Rossi, his space limiting factor on the other side. I think we differ about this racing incident thing though, because i would say that Bautista does not deserve critisism for his part in this, it could happen to anyone. Hell it happend to Rossi a few weeks ago, happend to Lorenzo at Philip Island 09 and i'm sure there are countless other examples we could think of

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Correct, I believe we disagree on the "racing incident" part. I think you and I have alway disagreed on this and recall several times exchanging thought. If I remember, we disagreed when Checa torpedoed Max Neucher.



When and error is made and the ride himself is taken out, the punishment is generally the DNF. When a rider makes a mistake and destroys the race for others and causes injury, then I believe criticism is fair and justified. I'm not hanging Bautista, I haven't said anything about his character or attacked him personally. The thread is here for you to review. I'd say I even said the opposite, that is, I applauded him for going over to see on Nicky and even attempted a hug. I'm just arguing this idea that racing incidents happen for a reason, and sometimes there is clearly blame. They don't cause themselves. Somebody made a mistake. If that is because the situation was tight and slit second, that only contributes to a greater possibility of mistake, but the argument seems to absolve riders of responsibility simply because of the tight situation. This is the lesson here. To dismiss it as a first turn incident is to suggest its mere luck when they all get through safely. That doesn't happen by miracle either.

Edwards said:

Tricycles don't count.

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But it was a very fast tricycle. the 'big wheel' variety.

Jumkie said:

But it was a very fast tricycle. the 'big wheel' variety.

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Was it pink too? They go the fastest.

Gaz said:

Jums, I haven't seen teh full race yet and only seen a few replays of the incident in question but your front on shots show that both Dovi and Bautista moved from their lines (use as a reference the track join and not the gap between VR and Dovi) Will reserve full judgement for another time and place and until I have reviewed all video, seen the data, compared which of the riders girlfriends is cuter, perved on Lauren Vickers and left work Gaz

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Buddy, they were not statues on the track, both were moving. The point is that the tandem of Rossi and Dovi move in unison relative to Bautista who cuts across the rear of Dovi.



Laren is overrated, but I wouldn't kick her out of bed. You want to see hottie, check out the monster chick I posted in the Laguna planning thread recently.

Tom and Jum, you're both right on exactly what's happened. Dovi and Rossi swing wide to get on the line. Nothing unusual there. Bautista makes a dart for the inside to get the track position and stop on the apex. Nothing unusual there, either. Problem is that these two actions have an intersecting trajectory and occur simultaneously. Bigger problem is that with Dovi in front, Bautista turns in a thousandth too soon. Bautista clips Dovi, the rest is history. Like I've said before, I've seen a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bummer for those collected.

Edwards said:

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

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And I hope you won't take offense when I say that unless you're competing in world championship road racing, your experience, intellect, and opinion on the matter is no more or less valuable than anyone here's.

Edwards said:

Was it pink too? They go the fastest.

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Speaking from experience again?

Austin said:

Tom and Jum, you're both right on exactly what's happened. Dovi and Rossi swing wide to get on the line. Nothing unusual there. Bautista makes a dart for the inside to get the track position and stop on the apex. Nothing unusual there, either. Problem is that these two actions have an intersecting trajectory and occur simultaneously. Bigger problem is that with Dovi in front, Bautista turns in a thousandth too soon. Bautista clips Dovi, the rest is history. Like I've said before, I've seen a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bummer for those collected.





And I hope you won't take offense when I say that unless you're competing in world championship road racing, your experience, intellect, and opinion on the matter is no more or less valuable than anyone here's.

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I did not claim to be more experienced, intellectual or more valuable than anyone else on here.

Jumkie said:

Buddy, they were not statues on the track, both were moving. The point is that the tandem of Rossi and Dovi move in unison relative to Bautista who cuts across the rear of Dovi.



Laren is overrated, but I wouldn't kick her out of bed. You want to see hottie, check out the monster chick I posted in the Laguna planning thread recently.

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My point entirely as on am oving track there is action and reactions.



And I have seen pics of Lauren (otherwise called Legz11) and a small MCC of NSW video









Gaz

Jumkie said:

Speaking from experience again?

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Not at all on this one. haha

Jumkie said:

They don't cause themselves. Somebody made a mistake. If that is because the situation was tight and slit second, that only contributes to a greater possibility of mistake, but the argument seems to absolve riders of responsibility simply because of the tight situation. This is the lesson here. To dismiss it as a first turn incident is to suggest its mere luck when they all get through safely. That doesn't happen by miracle either.

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I was just thinking about the Checa thing today, it was mentioned in our race coverage!!



The way i see it an acceptable decision can have unacceptable consequences. I don't like to get into the whole 'luck' thing because i think it is over used. Bautista took a risk, just like everyone does when they pick their braking and turning points for turn 1 of a race. The decision he made turned out to be a mistake in the sense that the consequences were all negative, that is to say the accident was caused by him. But i don't think he deserves critism for the risk he took or the decision he made, if you make that unacceptable in this sport you are enforcing a level of caution that contradicts the concept of racing motorcycles. If he was going in 20km/h quicker than everyone else on the grass like Krummenacher at Aragon last year then it's a different story but this is not like that in my view.

Another point I would like to make guys is to reitterate what the commentators on the BBC coverage said, which was that no-one will really know exactly how it happened. Bautista may have gone in a bit too fast yes, but who is to say that Dovi did not brake just a tiny bit which off put Bautista. I see it as Bautista's fault...but to me it just happens from time to time and it's hard luck on those that were involved but there will always be another race.

I have just one question: do we have any video to prove that Bautista's front wheel touched Dovi's khm back?

Because I would swear from memory (I did see only one replay from a Suzuki-wheel-angle) that the Suzuki's front wheel locked without touching anything near and then Alvaro went down and got down the others. So what Jumkie is saying is correct, he was in too hot. Actually I don't give a crap if Bautista is at fault or Dovi, it is a simple racing accident. But don't like when someone is blamed innocently.

Edwards said:

I did not claim to be more experienced, intellectual or more valuable than anyone else on here.

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Edwards said:

As a racer myself, I know that this is just a racing incident. It's "no-one's fault"...it just happens. End of.

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Edwards said:

There's no point trying to explain this to a non-racer...they just don't understand. No offence intended.

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All I'm saying is you seemed to be awfully dismissive of someone's opinion because you race and your perception was that the other member didn't.

Edwards, what is your racing experience? Just curious.

Austin said:

All I'm saying is you seemed to be awfully dismissive of someone's opinion because you race and your perception was that the other member didn't.

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Your opinion enitrely.

torro said:

I have just one question: do we have any video to prove that Bautista's front wheel touched Dovi's khm back?

Because I would swear from memory (I did see only one replay from a Suzuki-wheel-angle) that the Suzuki's front wheel locked without touching anything near and then Alvaro went down and got down the others. So what Jumkie is saying is correct, he was in too hot. Actually I don't give a crap if Bautista is at fault or Dovi, it is a simple racing accident. But don't like when someone is blamed innocently.

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Steve Parrish and Charlie Cox were on about this after four or five replays. They never saw the contact. But there is video footage in which you can see Dovi's bike bumped while Bautista begins to go down.

For MotoGP, Valencia is a go-kart track.

Therefore, the grid should be set two riders wide and have greater distance between rows.

This would reduce the clog of bikes going into turn one.

Dorna should be able to make these kind of adjustments at all the tracks that have a tight turn one or are small in general.



BTW, while Dovi was still going straight, Bautista turned in early and hit Dovi's rear wheel.

A rookie mistake - He (Bautista) should have spend more time in 250 / Moto 2 and should go back there for a year.

tphil said:

For MotoGP, Valencia is a go-kart track.

Therefore, the grid should be set two riders wide and have greater distance between rows.

This would reduce the clog of bikes going into turn one.

Dorna should be able to make these kind of adjustments at all the tracks that have a tight turn one or are small in general.



BTW, while Dovi was still going straight, Bautista turned in early and hit Dovi's rear wheel.

A rookie mistake - He (Bautista) should have spend more time in 250 / Moto 2 and should go back there for a year.

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A little harsh, no? Bautista has had some really good runs this year, pity he hasn't finished the race every time though. Going back to the beginning of the year (round 2 I think), where Rossi wiped out Stoner...does that mean Rossi needs to go back to Moto 2?

Austin said:

Tom and Jum, you're both right on exactly what's happened. Dovi and Rossi swing wide to get on the line. Nothing unusual there. Bautista makes a dart for the inside to get the track position and stop on the apex. Nothing unusual there, either. Problem is that these two actions have an intersecting trajectory and occur simultaneously. Bigger problem is that with Dovi in front, Bautista turns in a thousandth too soon. Bautista clips Dovi, the rest is history. Like I've said before, I've seen a lot worse. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bummer for those collected. And I hope you won't take offense when I say that unless you're competing in world championship road racing, your experience, intellect, and opinion on the matter is no more or less valuable than anyone here's.

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Austy, I think Bautista intended to follow Dovi into the turn. I believe he "darts" across to follow Dovi but unfortunately did it a hair too soon. Again, Dovi had no fault. I think if Alvaro tips it in a nat's hair later they all get through that turn cleanly. But that's racing right? That is to say, milli-second actions make all the difference. That's what these guys do successfully most of the time. On occasion, they miss time it. You make a mistake, you are blameworthy, right. When that mistake takes out several other riders which all turn-ones have that potential, then the blameworthiness is greater and criticism is deserved. I'm not sure why we are so shy to say he is to blame. Blame doesn't mean we are going to chastise the guy with lashes. A simple, he ...... up and screwed up other riders will suffice. But to relegate rider mistakes to simply "racing incidents" doesn't sit well with me personally. But that's just me. There are crashes where blame is much more clear and some will still chalk it up to 'that's racing'. We had a big drama this year between riders regarding blaming. So I know its not just my lack of "racing experience" that bars me from formulating an opinion. Hell, we had world champs blaming eachother.