Valencia 2 day 2017 merrygoround

AJV80 · Nov 17, 2016

Dr No said:
While I understand this rule as a way to REALLY enforce the "no aero" restrictions. Having a technical director with veto powers is ......... Especially in so-called "prototype" racing.
Either write the rulebook properly or cop the consequences,. To continue the exchange between Arrabb/22/me if someone can dream up a way to get aero without winglets, they should be bloody applauded, not banned.
Next will be NASCAR-style body templates, ffs

Agreed, the technical director clause is complete ........ and a cop out. Rules should be written so that they are black and white, clearly defined.

If they can make aerodynamics work within the bodywork all the more power to them. Nobody should be penalised for having superior designing capabilities, its no different to penalising Ducati for having a more powerful engine than the others.

michaelm · Nov 17, 2016

Dr No said:
Yeah, but but but...(pedantry time)
F1 didn't start until after WW2 and for years, the Hun wasn't allowed to compete.
Auto Union's GP cars and HQ got stuck behind the Iron Curtain.
And VW didn't have anything to do with AU until they bought it off Merc (there's an F1 connection ) in the 60's
And Audi didnt really come into its own until the 80s.
And the pricks still claim a motorcycle racing "heritage".
And they've pulled out of LMP racing

I should have said Grand Prix racing admittedly, and always liked the look of the pre-WW2 German grand prix cars.

Auto Union was very definitely the precursor of Audi though, and if we are to be pedantic as is obviously quite often my habit Honda's main success in F1 was as an engine provider rather than as a car builder.

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 18, 2016

Dr No said:
Auto Union's GP cars and HQ got stuck behind the Iron Curtain.

Fortunate then that prior to this the sport had already liberated vital secrets of the two stroke engine from Nazi Germany to galvanise the Japanese motorcycle industry.

Not sure if I ever mentioned it, but this is chronicled in a highly compelling read by a British motorsports journalist.

Dr No · Nov 18, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Fortunate then that prior to this the sport had already liberated vital secrets of the two stroke engine from Nazi Germany to galvanise the Japanese motorcycle industry.

Not sure if I ever mentioned it, but this is chronicled in a highly compelling read by a British motorsports journalist.

Fascinating. Never heard you mention it.
I gather it's all about Herrs Wolf and Zimmermann?

BTW: Did you manage to score a copy of Team Suzuki yet? I'm pissed off that mine is back in Oz. Might have to order another copy.

AJV80 · Nov 18, 2016

I came across this article while looking for KTM MotoGP bike information and they discuss their reasons for ceasing production of their road going 1190 RC8 superbike, claiming they are "to dangerous" for the road. No matter how much I try to jump on the band wagon and become a KTM fan its things like this that turn me off. Its a pretty piss weak reason and hypocritical when they as a company are more than happy to sell the more powerful 1290 Superduke. At least the RC8 being a superbike would be used on the road and on the tracks by many of the owners, the 1290 Superduke although able to be ridden on the track its main purpose is to be a road bike?

No More Superbikes for KTM - CEO Says They're Too Dangerous For Public RoadsTheRideAdvice.com

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 18, 2016

Dr No said:
Fascinating. Never heard you mention it.
I gather it's all about Herrs Wolf and Zimmermann?

BTW: Did you manage to score a copy of Team Suzuki yet? I'm pissed off that mine is back in Oz. Might have to order another copy.

The Battersby book? - yeah, straight away off Amazon.

Regarding Stealing Speed - I almost had the last laugh. Several years ago the book went out of print and the original hardback version, of which I own, was fetching up to two grand. However, in an attempt to redress the spiralling inflated costs the author republished the book on his website and now you can pick up a copy for twenty quid.

What have I been telling you clowns all along? Oxley? - ....... :ninja:

povol · Nov 18, 2016

AJV80 said:
I came across this article while looking for KTM MotoGP bike information and they discuss their reasons for ceasing production of their road going 1190 RC8 superbike, claiming they are "to dangerous" for the road. No matter how much I try to jump on the band wagon and become a KTM fan its things like this that turn me off. Its a pretty piss weak reason and hypocritical when they as a company are more than happy to sell the more powerful 1290 Superduke. At least the RC8 being a superbike would be used on the road and on the tracks by many of the owners, the 1290 Superduke although able to be ridden on the track its main purpose is to be a road bike?

No More Superbikes for KTM - CEO Says They're Too Dangerous For Public RoadsTheRideAdvice.com

He is full of ...., they just don't want to admit the RC was a non competitive non selling bike

Dr No · Nov 18, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
The Battersby book? - yeah, straight away off Amazon.

Regarding Stealing Speed - I almost had the last laugh. Several years ago the book went out of print and the original hardback version, of which I own, was fetching up to two grand. However, in an attempt to redress the spiralling inflated costs the author republished the book on his website and now you can pick up a copy for twenty quid.

What have I been telling you clowns all along? Oxley? - ....... :ninja:

2 grand? For that?? I am amazed. Ive only flicked through a friend's copy and found it Spalderz-level dismaying. Maybe I'll torture myself and see if I can pick up a cheapie softcover (if they exist).
Team Suzuki went the same way (unsure whether it went to 2k, though) and now is being republished by Battersby. Just have to see whether he will ship to China...might check if Book Suppository has it.

Keshav · Nov 18, 2016

budoist said:
Honda has multiple wind tunnels at their disposal. They build jets after all. But saying they have a wind tunnel and can out-spend Ducati on research into that area so Ducati shouldn't pursue it doesn't make sense. Honda also have an advanced robotic and artificial intelligence division that produced Asimo and was heavily influential in the direction that electronics in MotoGP have taken when Honda's GP program began borrowing from that team. By that logic, Ducati shouldn't invest in electronic advancements because Honda might outspend them.

Sure, Honda has a lot of experience and resources that they could pour into aero, but the fact remains that Ducati still pulled a coup with their idea and design. Even Honda's top rider has said that the single biggest advancement in the bike that helped him win the championship was along the trails that Ducati blazed ahead. There is also the fact that throwing money at a problem does not mean that you come to the correct, or best, solution. Honda has certainly been pouring money into "fixing" the RC, but for all of the changes that they've been doing their biggest gains seem to be using large aero packages (a la Ducati) and changing the engine to be closer to the one used by.... Ducati.

And then, of course, while complaining mightily about aero, Honda still invests in research to accomplish the same without making it so obvious.

Agree...

Honda's ginormous budget didn't stop Stoner from whooping their ... in 2007. It hasn't stopped Ducati doing exceptionally well in the constructor's championship the past few seasons. Honda's giant budget hasn't bought Dani a championship either. It did however afford them the luxury of hiring Stoner to get them a some trophies. We can all talk ourselves blind about the technical wonders wrought by the top manufacturers - but (and this a cliche) it's the talent they buy that clinches the deal. .... the wind tunnel. Honda's #1 advantage is Marquez. Put Marquez on the M1 and ....... Vale would have a stroke; and so would Honda. Put the kid on the Ducati and it would be 2007 all over again.

Back in the '80s Erv Kanemoto used to pull all kinds of back-room .... that Honda didn't know about to make Spencer and a few others really shine. Without him... who knows?

Keshav · Nov 18, 2016

moto vudu said:
The ZX-12R is the first bike I can remember offhand that had winglets.

That bike was such a overwhelmingly hideous boat that the wings were barely notable.

Gaz · Nov 18, 2016

moto vudu said:
Vinales should be a title contender, but I want to see him get more aggressive! There were a couple times this season where he got stuck behind a rider as Rossi and Marquez made their way to the front. I hope Vinales isn't going to be "too nice" to be a consistent front runner. Hopefully he's learning from Rossi and Marquez to block pass & go!

I have said a few times that I will temper my Vinales enthusiasm at this stage given the technical advantages allowed to Suzuki during the 2016 season but, also have to say that having watched some of the testing that aggression will not be an issue for Vinales as he had that Yamaha doing un-Yamaha dancing.

Still early to call but perhaps his riding in 2016 may have been limited by the bike where now he has a bike that allows a little more expression and attitude.

For mine, he was the pick of the tests as his riding was what I would describe as 'out there' and extremely aggressive, something that we have not seen from Yamaha riders.

I suspect that at the end of the tests, team Valentino was sitting there thinking 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' in terms of team mate results but once again, one thing Rossi is good at is not panicking at this stage. He will work with his team (and by that I mean HIS technicians etc) to get the Yamaha the way he wants it ........... whether Vinales is capable of the same in 2017 is still to be determined.

Whilst I may be a doubter, I look forward to MV's racing in 2017 if the testing and manner of his riding is anything to go by as I feel that he was taking the Yamaha outside the standard comfort zone, and it was spectacular

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 18, 2016

Gaz said:
I have said a few times that I will temper my Vinales enthusiasm at this stage given the technical advantages allowed to Suzuki during the 2016 season but, also have to say that having watched some of the testing that aggression will not be an issue for Vinales as he had that Yamaha doing un-Yamaha dancing.

Still early to call but perhaps his riding in 2016 may have been limited by the bike where now he has a bike that allows a little more expression and attitude.

For mine, he was the pick of the tests as his riding was what I would describe as 'out there' and extremely aggressive, something that we have not seen from Yamaha riders.

I suspect that at the end of the tests, team Valentino was sitting there thinking 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' in terms of team mate results but once again, one thing Rossi is good at is not panicking at this stage. He will work with his team (and by that I mean HIS technicians etc) to get the Yamaha the way he wants it ........... whether Vinales is capable of the same in 2017 is still to be determined.

Whilst I may be a doubter, I look forward to MV's racing in 2017 if the testing and manner of his riding is anything to go by as I feel that he was taking the Yamaha outside the standard comfort zone, and it was spectacular

Have you seen the way Illanone was manhandling the suzuki? He will be a threat next year now he has a bike a bit more compliant.

Gaz · Nov 18, 2016

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Have you seen the way Illanone was manhandling the suzuki? He will be a threat next year now he has a bike a bit more compliant.

Ianonne has two issues.

1. Consistency

And the bigger issue

2. Ianonne. Has talent but attitude seems an issue (IMO).

If the effective kicking out of Ducati is a big kick in the bum for him and makes him focus the energy in the right place, then all well and good but until he gets consistent, I expect nothing .........

AJV80 · Nov 19, 2016

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Have you seen the way Illanone was manhandling the suzuki? He will be a threat next year now he has a bike a bit more compliant.

Absolutely, 4th fastest overall and the bloke wasn't at his 100% best and also had two big crashes over the tests. They say the Suzuki is getting a new engine that wont be ready until the final preseason tests. I think it will do well next season, its developed at a level where it genuinley competitive and not just because it has concessions.

Suzuki's efforts in getting back into the series have been excellent, doing all the right things and focussing on all the right areas. Biggest blunder I think they have made since returning is signing Rins.

I'd like to see KTM do well but they seem to be focusing on a great engine rather than a great handling bike. That approach may work in Moto3 where race winners are often decided by slipstreaming out of the last corner and across the line but things are different in MotoGP. Ducati's powerful engine didn't stop Mav from pushing him out of the way to take the final spot on the podium at PI.

AJV80 · Nov 19, 2016

Gaz said:
Ianonne has two issues.

1. Consistency

And the bigger issue

2. Ianonne. Has talent but attitude seems an issue (IMO).

If the effective kicking out of Ducati is a big kick in the bum for him and makes him focus the energy in the right place, then all well and good but until he gets consistent, I expect nothing .........

Gaz, agree that he does have issues with consistency and finishing races. He pushes hard and has no issues with over riding the bike, he has an all in attitude which is great and tries hard to get results (maybe a little too hard at times but he will learn).

I don't see issues with his attitude though, no matter how much he falls he picks himself back up, dusts himself off and gets back into it. He has a lot of fight in him and is an explosive exciting rider to watch. He makes mistakes but puts his hand up when he does and doesn't make excuses for his .... ups (and he has made a few). He got booted from Ducati but that didn't get him bitter and stop him from trying, he also gave them their first win since Stoner. Hopefully the new engine the Suzuki gets before 2017 season opener gets the bike to a level where he doesn't have to over ride it as much to get it on the podium.

Marquez has a similar attitude and riding qualities (talented & explosive) and it seems to have worked out really well for him.

Finish line · Nov 19, 2016

Vinales might call himself Maverick and color his test bike into a fighter jet, but he is no Pete Mitchell.

He is fast, we saw that. And in races where he did well, he was alone, got to the finish line with little fight. Might be the bike, might be his style but to me he is another Dovi. Boring.

I wonder if his dad would name him Vanilla if his favorite (Tom Cruise) movie was Vanilla Sky.

He will now have a great (if not the best) bike, tons of pressure, not just from the factory and the media but also he will have to deal with everything Rossi (why are you faster/why are you not, how does it feel to have him in the same team, how is the relationship.....). He will have to deal with more press conferences, specially if he does well in the begining.

I wish him all the best, I hope I'm wrong about him and he does have that killer instinct (and some of that P. Mitchell's balls). After all...he is the future of the sport.

And as for Iannone...he's got the guts but he needs to mature. If he doesn't, all Suzuki has done in the last year will go to nothing. They need to find that switch MM's team found on their rider.

Gaz · Nov 19, 2016

AJV80 said:
I don't see issues with his attitude though, no matter how much he falls he picks himself back up, dusts himself off and gets back into it. He has a lot of fight in him and is an explosive exciting rider to watch. He makes mistakes but puts his hand up when he does and doesn't make excuses for his .... ups (and he has made a few). He got booted from Ducati but that didn't get him bitter and stop him from trying, he also gave them their first win since Stoner. Hopefully the new engine the Suzuki gets before 2017 season opener gets the bike to a level where he doesn't have to over ride it as much to get it on the podium.

The attitude to which I refer is not that of his attitude towards racing but his attitude towards team and some off track activities (think back to his twitter rages, smashing of windows etc from 2016) on top of his refusal to acknowledge his incidents.

The attitude that concerns me is the attitude of ego as there are times when a large ego can impact how one performs and limit how one learns.

AJV80 · Nov 19, 2016

Gaz said:
The attitude to which I refer is not that of his attitude towards racing but his attitude towards team and some off track activities (think back to his twitter rages, smashing of windows etc from 2016) on top of his refusal to acknowledge his incidents.

The attitude that concerns me is the attitude of ego as there are times when a large ego can impact how one performs and limit how one learns.

I actually find him quite entertaining, his window smashing was a non event and funny if anything. Just him being a .... and locking his keys in his car, god knows how though, I didn't even know you could do that with cars anymore. Nothing wrong with being colourful, Barry Sheene was quite the character in his day from what I hear. Guy Martin is one also.

An interview with Honda's Livio Suppo explained how all riders have "super ego's" as he put it, Ianonne is no different, definitely not the first or the last. Marc had issues with his ego to, his 'all or nothing' approach was spectacular to witness compared to 2016 and him settling for safe points (but winning the championship). Ianonne will work it out for himself I guess, in the mean time its loads of fun for us as spectators to watch. His riding is definitely not boring thats for sure.

Finish line · Nov 19, 2016

Honda decided not to go to Jerez next week and save the days of testing for next year.

Ducati will be going there without Lorenzo.

Source (in Spanish).

JKant · Nov 19, 2016

Finish line said:
Ducati will be going there without Lorenzo.

And therefore without Dovizioso, which means Pirro & Petrucci will get to lead the testing. Should be interesting.

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