Valencia 2 day 2017 merrygoround

Theo · Nov 16, 2016

So did anyone watch it?
I watched about 2 hours worth and the one hing that got me was that Ducati still has the banned winglets on next years model. I expect they need them to make the "Spartan" look good, but where will it get them as his next practice session is in 10 weeks time in Malasia (end of January) as he is banned by Yamahahahaha from the practice at the end of the month.

Barbedwirebikerr · Nov 16, 2016

All of the factory teams are testing winged and wingless versions of both 2016 and 2017 models. Nothing to do with propping up JLo's times.

povol · Nov 16, 2016

You sound like a Rossi fan. What you should be concerned about is Maverick being 7/10ths up on his 7 time champion teammate his first time on the bike. He s only going to get better. Could be a long two years for the petulant one.

Fenrir2016 · Nov 16, 2016

Barbedwirebikerr said:
All of the factory teams are testing winged and wingless versions of both 2016 and 2017 models. Nothing to do with propping up JLo's times.

I don't remember seeing any wings on any other manufacturer 2017 bikes. There were a lot of 2016 bikes out there and sometimes 2016 bikes with 2017 engines (Rossi and Marquez in particular).

I'm a Rossi fan but very happy with the testing so far. Next year looks promising with more competition than we've had for a long time (thanks to the spec ecu according to Poncharal).

Promising signs from everyone really. Vinales very strong topping the timesheets on both days.

Zarco and Folger had very strong debut.

A Esp tracking very well on the Aprilia (matching his Suzuki pace on the 2016 Aprilia).

Wings or not Ducati is looking strong with good times on the first day from JLo on the 16 then even stronger times from Dovi on the GP17 on day 2. Jlo will be a contender for sure.

Jack set some good times in the morning before stacking his new bike (I assume he spent the rest of the day on the old bike hence no improvement when the temps improved).

The organisers have some explaining to do though with the removed air fence and one rider hospitalized.

AJV80 · Nov 16, 2016

Fenrir2016 said:
I don't remember seeing any wings on any other manufacturer 2017 bikes. There were a lot of 2016 bikes out there and sometimes 2016 bikes with 2017 engines (Rossi and Marquez in particular).

I'm a Rossi fan but very happy with the testing so far. Next year looks promising with more competition than we've had for a long time (thanks to the spec ecu according to Poncharal).

Promising signs from everyone really. Vinales very strong topping the timesheets on both days.

Zarco and Folger had very strong debut.

A Esp tracking very well on the Aprilia (matching his Suzuki pace on the 2016 Aprilia).

Wings or not Ducati is looking strong with good times on the first day from JLo on the 16 then even stronger times from Dovi on the GP17 on day 2. Jlo will be a contender for sure.

Jack set some good times in the morning before stacking his new bike (I assume he spent the rest of the day on the old bike hence no improvement when the temps improved).

The organisers have some explaining to do though with the removed air fence and one rider hospitalized.

I know Ducati ran the 2017 bike with wings, reason was to be able to compare apples with apples when testing the two bikes because they had quite different frames.

Cant remember if other manufacturers used wings on their 17 bikes, wouldn't surprise me if they did initially during the first day for similar reasons. I think Ducati was the only team runnings wings for the duration of the testing on both bikes.

Hollywood · Nov 16, 2016

I was surprised too to see Ducati using the winglets, whats the point of comparing a winged gp17 to last seasons bike, when they have the data from the GP16. I would have expected some kind of updated body work, perhaps something that could increase pressure on the front of the bike similar to the wings (maybe not to the same degree).

AJV80 · Nov 16, 2016

Hollywood said:
I was surprised too to see Ducati using the winglets, whats the point of comparing a winged gp17 to last seasons bike, when they have the data from the GP16. I would have expected some kind of updated body work, perhaps something that could increase pressure on the front of the bike similar to the wings (maybe not to the same degree).

The way they explained the reasoning was so that they could compare the 16 to the 17 more accurately. If they tested the 17 without winglets it would be harder to determine if the differences on the 17 had to do with the lack of winglets or the actual changes.

The reason other teams didn't do the same thing to such a degree was because they didn't have big changes in the frame like the Ducati did. They wanted to be sure the feedback they where getting from the riders wasn't influenced by the lack of wings.

I think they could have done the same thing if they removed the winglets from he 16 bike initially and then compared it to the 17 without the wings. The only concern they brought up with doing that was that riders accustomed to winglets may have a higher risk of crashing.

I think most of the teams will have updated bodywork trying to incorporate aero design, the rule changes to freeze front cowl and mudguard designs at the beginning of the season has probably got them all keeping their designs behind closed doors to stop other teams from copying them maybe.

Fenrir2016 · Nov 16, 2016

I wouldn't mind if they allowed on short wing element each side similar to Yamaha wings. No big fences on the outside edge.

Cal has called BS on Dovi suggestion the cause of the crashes being removal of wings and stated that no one was crashing there before we had wings. Hes not wrong.

AJV80 · Nov 16, 2016

Fenrir2016 said:
I wouldn't mind if they allowed on short wing element each side similar to Yamaha wings. No big fences on the outside edge.

Cal has called BS on Dovi suggestion the cause of the crashes being removal of wings and stated that no one was crashing there before we had wings. Hes not wrong.

I could see Dovi's point though, previously when they didn't run wings the tyres and bikes where designed to suit so there was no issue.

This entire season the tyres had been developed and designed for bikes with wings in mind, possibly slightly more loading on the front tyre because of this. Its plausible that the removal of the wings with the current tyres could have an influence on the tyres performance and behaviour catching a few people out maybe taking a little longer and more effort to get up to temp etc.

I'm glad they had gotten rid of the wings, they look like puss and if they stayed I could imagine manufactures getting to a stage of putting them on consumer bikes to add some BS wow factor.

yamfan · Nov 16, 2016

Herve Poncheral says the wings have a place in MotoGP as they definitely improve the handling of the bikes. The only reason they got scrapped (supposedly) is that manufacturers couldn't agree on a solution to keep them.
Herve was very quick to point out that Rossi's fastest time on Tuesday was set on a bike using wings. Rossi fans bleating about Jorge's wings should worry more about Mav, the lad didn't use them to top the field.
I reckon Gigi D'alligna has a few tricks up his sleeve regarding aero, but he's not showing his hand yet or the other teams may copy again.
Yamaha turned up at the test with a radical new fairing incorporating aero, but it wasn't allowed as it was found to be outside the rules.

Fenrir2016 · Nov 16, 2016

AJV80 said:
I could see Dovi's point though, previously when they didn't run wings the tyres and bikes where designed to suit so there was no issue.

This entire season the tyres had been developed and designed for bikes with wings in mind, possibly slightly more loading on the front tyre because of this. Its plausible that the removal of the wings with the current tyres could have an influence on the tyres performance and behaviour catching a few people out maybe taking a little longer and more effort to get up to temp etc.

I'm glad they had gotten rid of the wings, they look like puss and if they stayed I could imagine manufactures getting to a stage of putting them on consumer bikes to add some BS wow factor.

Interesting point. Ohlins just popped some new forks in MM, Rossi and JL's bikes apparently adapted to the Michelins but that could mean these could be affected by the reduced Aero too.

AJV80 · Nov 16, 2016

yamfan said:
Herve Poncheral says the wings have a place in MotoGP as they definitely improve the handling of the bikes. The only reason they got scrapped (supposedly) is that manufacturers couldn't agree on a solution to keep them.
Herve was very quick to point out that Rossi's fastest time on Tuesday was set on a bike using wings. Rossi fans bleating about Jorge's wings should worry more about Mav, the lad didn't use them to top the field.
I reckon Gigi D'alligna has a few tricks up his sleeve regarding aero, but he's not showing his hand yet or the other teams may copy again.
Yamaha turned up at the test with a radical new fairing incorporating aero, but it wasn't allowed as it was found to be outside the rules.

Yeah I heard the same interview with Herve, interesting comments he made about the electronics. Best technical decision DORNA has made as he put it. Nobody could agree on the ruling for the wings so instead of working to towards common ground and a resolution they where scrapped.

Be interesting to see how they build the aero designs into the bikes next year, like you say I think they are all cautious of showing their hand to early and having other teams copy.

GOAT · Nov 16, 2016

yamfan said:
Herve Poncheral says the wings have a place in MotoGP as they definitely improve the handling of the bikes. The only reason they got scrapped (supposedly) is that manufacturers couldn't agree on a solution to keep them.
Herve was very quick to point out that Rossi's fastest time on Tuesday was set on a bike using wings. Rossi fans bleating about Jorge's wings should worry more about Mav, the lad didn't use them to top the field.
I reckon Gigi D'alligna has a few tricks up his sleeve regarding aero, but he's not showing his hand yet or the other teams may copy again.
Yamaha turned up at the test with a radical new fairing incorporating aero, but it wasn't allowed as it was found to be outside the rules.

Wow. I wonder if any pictures were released of the rejected fairing? Would be interesting to see what they come up with.

yamfan · Nov 16, 2016

GOAT said:
Wow. I wonder if any pictures were released of the rejected fairing? Would be interesting to see what they come up with.

Interesting yes, but it's a wall hanger at best as it's illegal.

AJV80 · Nov 17, 2016

yamfan said:
Interesting yes, but it's a wall hanger at best as it's illegal.

Read this article the other day about the aero rules, interesting topic, sure there will be more to come on this.

The FIM is taking further steps to contain the cost of aerodynamics. The banning of winglets decided earlier this year was made on two grounds: removing the danger of being struck by a protruding wing, and reducing the potentially astronomical cost of an aerodynamic war beginning.

Banning winglets would prevent the first issue from being a problem, but would do nothing to address the second point. Indeed, with the aerodynamics cat well and truly out of the bag, the factories have already hinted that their focus would switch to fairing design.

The Grand Prix Commission have moved to stop that war starting before it begins. From 2017, factories will have to homologate fairing and front mudgard designs, with only one upgrade to each allowed per season.

The idea behind it is to allow factories to continue to develop aerodynamics, but to limit the amount of time and money spent in search of wheelie prevention.

The rules do leave one loophole open, however. The aerodynamic homologation rules apply to each rider separately. In theory, each rider on a Yamaha, Honda, or Ducati could start with a different fairing, the results of which could be assessed by the factory to help develop the next homologated version of the fairing for use in mid-season.

Theoretically, this could mean that Ducati could start the season with 8 different fairing designs, one for each of the different bikes on the grid. They could then take this data and improve the fairing design for each individual Ducati rider, supplying 8 different upgrades.

This would of course be prohibitively expensive, but there is a chance that some factories (especially Ducati, who are convinced of the benefits of aerodynamics) could phase development, providing early updated versions of fairings to satellite teams, to assess performance before rolling them out to the factory teams.

The allowance of an aerodynamics package per rider also recognizes the different needs of riders. For example, Dani Pedrosa has abandoned wings altogether this season, while Marc Marquez has pushed for ever larger wings.

This new rule would allow the two riders to run different fairings with different aerodynamic characteristics.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-rules-aerodynamics-airbag-suits-moto2-spec-ecu/

The aerodynamic rules for the 2017 MotoGP season and beyond have been published. At a meeting of the Grand Prix Commission at Misano, a proposal from Dorna's technical team was accepted banning aerodynamic devices in as general a wording as possible. Wings, bulges, and anything protruding from the front of the fairing is now banned.

The proposal was drawn up by a small group consisting of Director of Technology Corrado Cecchinelli, Technical Director Danny Aldridge and Race Director Mike Webb. Their main focus was to keep the wording as general as possible, so as to avoid loopholes for engineers to exploit. Technical Director Danny Aldridge will have the final word on any fairing protrusion, precisely to prevent any doubt about workarounds.

The rules also remove the possibility of using the space at the front of the fairing to create aerodynamic downforce. The front of the fairing may not extend more than 150mm beyond the axle of the front wheel. This should prevent too much experimentation with fairings such as tried by the WCM team at the end of 2000, or extending the lips of air intakes into "beak"-style structures, such as seen on some road bikes.

The official press release is shown below:

FIM Grand Prix World Championship
Decision of the Grand Prix Commission

The Grand Prix Commission, composed of Messrs. Carmelo Ezpeleta (Dorna, Chairman), Ignacio Verneda (FIM CEO), Herve Poncharal (IRTA) and Takanao Tsubouchi (MSMA) in the presence of Javier Alonso (Dorna) and Mike Trimby (IRTA, Secretary of the meeting), in a meeting held on 9 September at Misano (RSM), made the following decisions:

Technical Regulations

Effective Season 2017

Streamlining and Aerodynamic Devices

It was already announced that aerodynamic wings are banned in all classes from 2017. The wording of the regulation covering this matter was confirmed:

Devices or shapes protruding from the fairing or bodywork and not integrated in the body streamlining (e.g. wings, fins, bulges, etc.) that may provide an aerodynamic effect (e.g. providing downforce, disrupting aerodynamic wake, etc.) are not allowed.

The Technical Director will be the sole judge of whether a device or fairing design falls into the above definition.

Furthermore, to avoid that the front of the fairing is wing-shaped, with unpredictable safety results, the front of the fairing cannot protrude more than 150mm beyond a vertical line drawn through the front wheel spindle. (It should be noted that all fairings in current use already comply with this).

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/motogp-rules-aerodynamics-airbag-suits-moto2-spec-ecu/

Theo · Nov 17, 2016

povol said:
You sound like a Rossi fan. What you should be concerned about is Maverick being 7/10ths up on his 7 time champion teammate his first time on the bike. He s only going to get better. Could be a long two years for the petulant one.

I'm an anyone fan but Jlo, but especially the English riders. Good on Maverick he'll be another world champ in a year or 3's time. What is important is that the racing should be exciting regardless of who wins.
As for Rossi, yes he's okay having spoken to him a few times when he lived in London, its that fat ..... he hangs about with that spoils him, a right sour ..... who is dismissive of anyone that isn't someone.

Keshav · Nov 17, 2016

Too early to make forecasts - but Vinales defo looked strong. With all the changes re: wings, chassis and aerodynamics - there's not much out there with regards to how Michelin will change the rubber which affects all riders across the spectrum. I know Lorenzo was down in the times but he didn't look uncomfortable. I expect he'll do well at Qatar tho Dovi will (at least in early stages) still be the fastest Ducati.

L8Braker · Nov 17, 2016

Maverick requesting a fly by.....time to buzz the tower Goose!

Hollywood · Nov 17, 2016

AJV80 said:
The way they explained the reasoning was so that they could compare the 16 to the 17 more accurately. If they tested the 17 without winglets it would be harder to determine if the differences on the 17 had to do with the lack of winglets or the actual changes.

Wouldn't the 2017 bike have a different body on it? That in itself is a variable, so adding the wings to the 2017 body (an additional variable) would yield data that the team could not draw accurate conclusions from.

evo9 · Nov 17, 2016

yamfan said:
Herve Poncheral says the wings have a place in MotoGP as they definitely improve the handling of the bikes. The only reason they got scrapped (supposedly) is that manufacturers couldn't agree on a solution to keep them.
Herve was very quick to point out that Rossi's fastest time on Tuesday was set on a bike using wings. Rossi fans bleating about Jorge's wings should worry more about Mav, the lad didn't use them to top the field.
I reckon Gigi D'alligna has a few tricks up his sleeve regarding aero, but he's not showing his hand yet or the other teams may copy again.
Yamaha turned up at the test with a radical new fairing incorporating aero, but it wasn't allowed as it was found to be outside the rules.

You do realize that Honda has a wind tunnel at their disposal. Nakamoto drop this hint at Gigi to let him know it would be a loosing battle for Ducati.

Valencia 2 day 2017 merrygoround

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