This is why (maybe) the other Ducati's are struggling so so hard...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Aug 5 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why don't you read this article -
http://www.roadracerx.com/article.php?article_id=52
good article but how relevant is it to todays traction control. that was written in 06.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The millions out there who watch are here for the spectacle, and [traction control] doesn’t detract from the spectacle.
i wonder if jb still believes this ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Aug 5 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why don't you read this article -
http://www.roadracerx.com/article.php?article_id=52
Good thing you added that link.It shows that every make and team does whatever they can to stay with the competition.It's ofcourse not only Stoner and Pedrobot that rely on tractioncontrol.Rossi and everyone else does it too,it's the way to go fast,like it or not.

This is horseshit,its like they are saying the other bikes dont use electronics and Ducati does.ALL THE BIKES HAVE ELECTRONIC TC and all the riders can whack the throttle pretty much any time they want in a corner.Roger Lee Hayden said it was weird, if you did it on a Superbike,you would end up in the 3rd row of the spectator stands.Ben Spies said the same thing,as did Jamie Hacking.Thats 2 riders on a Kawasaki and 1 on a Suzuki.Since we know that Ducati has TC and now we know Kawasaki and Suzuki has it,all that is left is to prove that Honda actually is using it to.Yes im being a smart ....Its the same old ....,day after day.This is why he does this,this is why my guy cant do that,it gets very ....... old.I want his tires,his valvetrain is better so lets restrict rpm limits.He cant be that good ,he's cheating,god damn his wife is hot,yea but his electronics are the reason he has her,
WHAT!,thats right,if it wasnt for his electronics, he would suck, probably be last on the grid and she wouldnt piss in his ear if his brain was on fire.This is what, the 850th article or thread about the same ....... thing.I said before that a ceratin faction of the Gp world would keep repeating this,over and over, till it became reality and the it continues down the path.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Aug 6 2008, 12:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is horseshit,its like they are saying the other bikes dont use electronics and Ducati does.ALL THE BIKES HAVE ELECTRONIC TC and all the riders can whack the throttle pretty much any time they want in a corner.Roger Lee Hayden said it was weird, if you did it on a Superbike,you would end up in the 3rd row of the spectator stands.Ben Spies said the same thing,as did Jamie Hacking.Thats 2 riders on a Kawasaki and 1 on a Suzuki.Since we know that Ducati has TC and now we know Kawasaki and Suzuki has it,all that is left is to prove that Honda actually is using it to.Yes im being a smart ....Its the same old ....,day after day.This is why he does this,this is why my guy cant do that,it gets very ....... old.I want his tires,his valvetrain is better so lets restrict rpm limits.He cant be that good ,he's cheating,god damn his wife is hot,yea but his electronics are the reason he has her,
WHAT!,thats right,if it wasnt for his electronics, he would suck, probably be last on the grid and she wouldnt piss in his ear if his brain was on fire.This is what, the 850th article or thread about the same ....... thing.I said before that a ceratin faction of the Gp world would keep repeating this,over and over, till it became reality and the it continues down the path.
Agree,i'm certainly tired of it too.All the info is already out on this forum by now for sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Aug 6 2008, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good thing you added that link.It shows that every make and team does whatever they can to stay with the competition.It's ofcourse not only Stoner and Pedrobot that rely on tractioncontrol.Rossi and everyone else does it too,it's the way to go fast,like it or not.

No, it's not the way to go fast, they don't use TC with q tires, and good riders go just as fast without TC, but it's the easy way to go fast, a way to go fast consistently and the way for riders with no throttle control to go very fast and the way to go fast with worn tires. It's enough of an advantage that everyone depend on it to be part of the race. I don't like. Most of all, not because medicore riders go faster but because all the bike/rider combos get up to a certain pace during practice and that's the speed they are going with all through the race. They all spread out nicely each on their own pace with a few lone riders in the top and a smal bunch that are too close in speed fighting out for 4th or 5th and then another group fighting for 9th or what ever and then a few slow riders spread out at the end.
Look at SBK. The championship is boring as hell, it's in Bailiss pocket for a while now but most races are a thrill to watch. Without good enough tire technology to cope with the heavier bikes with more torque and less TC. A couple of seconds distance more often than not are driven in and the whole race has a dynamic to it that looks a liot like the 990 days. In motoGP today a two seconds lead is as good as 15 sec used to be. That's boring.

As long as he holds the throttle in position, the traction control works out precisely how much power can be applied before the wheel spins, and delivers it.

The system requires a rider to make a serious commitment for it to work effectively, hanging on for one of the most extreme rides ever.

Well at Laguna he had to follow Rossi and brake slightly sooner.. you could see the backend wobbling more than usual.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 6 2008, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, it's not the way to go fast, they don't use TC with q tires, and good riders go just as fast without TC, but it's the easy way to go fast, a way to go fast consistently and the way for riders with no throttle control to go very fast and the way to go fast with worn tires. It's enough of an advantage that everyone depend on it to be part of the race. I don't like. Most of all, not because medicore riders go faster but because all the bike/rider combos get up to a certain pace during practice and that's the speed they are going with all through the race. They all spread out nicely each on their own pace with a few lone riders in the top and a smal bunch that are too close in speed fighting out for 4th or 5th and then another group fighting for 9th or what ever and then a few slow riders spread out at the end.
Look at SBK. The championship is boring as hell, it's in Bailiss pocket for a while now but most races are a thrill to watch. Without good enough tire technology to cope with the heavier bikes with more torque and less TC. A couple of seconds distance more often than not are driven in and the whole race has a dynamic to it that looks a liot like the 990 days. In motoGP today a two seconds lead is as good as 15 sec used to be. That's boring.
I am sure you are correct that the combination of the tc and the tyres is the main reason for the difference in the racing between motogp and wsbk at the moment; the last round provided great evidence as to how variability in the tyre wear in wsbk affects the pace of the different bikes as the race progresses. Rossi's ability to preserve tyres and ride better on worn tyres was a major contributor to his superiority. As mylexicon says I wonder whether the tyre technology is not the most influential single factor in motogp at the moment given that wsbk also has tc but has a control tyre.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Aug 6 2008, 04:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So why bother bringing it up, if for nothing else than to get a reaction?
So what ? This is an open forum. Everybody can speak freely. And if you read my ORIGINAL thread title, actually I was pointing out to THE OTHER DUCATI'S.
And forum without reaction is useless...BUT I do not a war/fight. PEACE !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 6 2008, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>good article but how relevant is it to todays traction control. that was written in 06.


i wonder if jb still believes this ?


you did read the bit where JB states that "Rossi grew up with it ... he wouldn't know it any other way" didn't you?

Fair dinkum Rog. ..... read it and try to assimilate what that means ..... sure there have been changes since 06 ...... but Rog. how much change do you believe there is? Surely the change from 990's to 800's was massive compared.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Aug 6 2008, 02:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am sure you are correct that the combination of the tc and the tyres is the main reason for the difference in the racing between motogp and wsbk at the moment; the last round provided great evidence as to how variability in the tyre wear in wsbk affects the pace of the different bikes as the race progresses. Rossi's ability to preserve tyres and ride better on worn tyres was a major contributor to his superiority. As mylexicon says I wonder whether the tyre technology is not the most influential single factor in motogp at the moment given that wsbk also has tc but has a control tyre.

Good point there. Also the fuel limit might be one of the major contributors. My point it that they should look closely at all three and see what can be changed to improve the racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Aug 6 2008, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you did read the bit where JB states that "Rossi grew up with it ... he wouldn't know it any other way" didn't you?

Fair dinkum Rog. ..... read it and try to assimilate what that means ..... sure there have been changes since 06 ...... but Rog. how much change do you believe there is? Surely the change from 990's to 800's was massive compared.
i did read the bit where jb said rossi grew up with it, but he also said they did not use it in the first year of the rc211v but they tested it at valencia that year so i take it rossi didnt use it on the honda nsr either then ?

you ask how much change in electronics there has been in the past 2 years in the pinical of motorcycle racing..eerm i would guess its massive !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Aug 6 2008, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i did read the bit where jb said rossi grew up with it, but he also said they did not use it in the first year of the rc211v but they tested it at valencia that year so i take it rossi didnt use it on the honda nsr either then ?

Yes I can remeber it was Rossi who first said engine braking is no good, and I think oddly a lot of the electronics followed on from that ....... sure slipper clutches were a mechanical fix but as soon as they started playing with run-on etc. it all snowballed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Aug 6 2008, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes I can remeber it was Rossi who first said engine braking is no good, and I think oddly a lot of the electronics followed on from that ....... sure slipper clutches were a mechanical fix but as soon as they started playing with run-on etc. it all snowballed.
i seem to remember it was max biaggi that first used the slipper clutch on the m1 and blamed it for his poor performance, but what does this have to do this tc differance from 06 to the present ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Aug 6 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am sure you are correct that the combination of the tc and the tyres is the main reason for the difference in the racing between motogp and wsbk at the moment; the last round provided great evidence as to how variability in the tyre wear in wsbk affects the pace of the different bikes as the race progresses. Rossi's ability to preserve tyres and ride better on worn tyres was a major contributor to his superiority. As mylexicon says I wonder whether the tyre technology is not the most influential single factor in motogp at the moment given that wsbk also has tc but has a control tyre.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Aug 6 2008, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good point there. Also the fuel limit might be one of the major contributors. My point it that they should look closely at all three and see what can be changed to improve the racing.
I would say that the fuel limit regulations are the ones that have caused so much anguish in for the racing fans.

The tyre capabilities in Motogp keep increasing and this allows for higher corner speeds. This is obviously not an option in WSBK with the control tyres. Agree that the ability to conserve tyres is more useful with the current WSBK rules than it is with the highly electronically controlled Motogp world where the electronics are possibly going to start limiting the power of the bikes due to the fuel regs before the highly capable tyres get a chance to go off.

The TC (as opposed to other electronic aids) is probably relatively similar between WSBK and Motogp.

AFAIK the differences between the electronic aids used in the two series (excluding the fuel control software which is not required in WSBK) are the engine maps per corner (made possible by technology allowing the bike to know where it is on the circuit (bear in mind this is not necessarily GPS)) and complete (as opposed to the electronics controlling 50% of the cylinders to achieve "rider feel" with less able systems) fly-by-wire throttle control.

The final, and most important difference between the series is the fuel control software. I have heard that if the 800cc bikes were allowed an extra 0.25 l of fuel per race then they could bin all the software designed to make the bikes finish the race on the 21 litres allowed. As has been said before by myself, and others on this forum, if Dorna were to ditch the 21 litre limit then 50% of the software complexity would be sloughed off with this single and minor rule change.

If Dorna can't stomach a complete reversal to 990s (please) then binning the fuel limit, direct throttle control and stopping the electronics knowing where they are on a circuit will do.

It would also maintain the lap and top speed advantage of Motogp bikes over WSBK for a few years as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Aug 6 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Dorna can't stomach a complete reversal to 990s (please) then binning the fuel limit, direct throttle control and stopping the electronics knowing where they are on a circuit will do.

It would also maintain the lap and top speed advantage of Motogp bikes over WSBK for a few years as well.
Your proposal regarding direct throttle control and track aware mapping has always appeared eminently sensible to me; perhaps the manufacturers don't want this.

I had thought that the fuel restriction made some sort of sense in that politically/philosophically at least fuel economy is a good direction of development and it is a de facto control on power production, and limiting the speed of the bikes was apparently one of the aims of the formula. It looks like it is having effects other than were planned and, in a situation where FIM does not seem to have effective control of the technical regulations of wsbk and motogp, regulations which might make sense when motogp is considered in isolation may not do so when wsbk is a commercial competitor.

Having an independent body (presumably FIM) firmly in control of the technical regulations for both series seems essential to me, but I guess there is so much money at stake for the commercial rights holders now that this happening in practice is likely to remain problematic.

.... it...Let them keep all the electronics.................... bring back the PUSH-START

As you obviously mean to imply this would also mean no need for any rules regarding rider weights.

You know, when is motorcycle racing going to remove the rider entirely and just have robotic bikes race each other?

The bikes would be lighter because the riders wouldn't be on the bikes. Why have the advantage of a 40 kg rider when you could remove the rider entirely? Also, robots dont get scared. Robots dont get tired. Robots could do things that human riders could never do.

i mean seriously, we're moving in that direction, and its sad. I dont want to see a ....... computer race. I want the human aspect to be forefront. Motorcycle racing is special because of the human element that goes with it. How many other sports could one die in an instant because of one mistake? That fact changes everything.

I know there are people who think great racing is all about having unreal lap times, ridiculous amounts of grip, and want to see this happen with the best cutting edge technology. However I find that to be incredibly boring, and I'd rather watch a video-game race itself, because basically it would be the same thing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Aug 6 2008, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Dorna can't stomach a complete reversal to 990s (please) then binning the fuel limit, direct throttle control and stopping the electronics knowing where they are on a circuit will do.

It would also maintain the lap and top speed advantage of Motogp bikes over WSBK for a few years as well.

I agree in that, but be aware that this would rule out any kind of gyro and accelerometers as sensors. They are being tried out today for the TC but are have been used for years for telemterics. It's pretty cool actually to see the telemterics software draw up the track as it was ridden by the rider purly based on the gyro. Unfortunatly the same could be done with any lean angle and accelereometers. So all these had to be banned and that's pretty much what I wanted as well. Possibly with the addition of baning any front wheel sensor. The rest is unavoidable but would leave the engineers with a rudimantary traction control that have only rpm/speed, rpm changes as input and ignition and injectors as "actuators". This could still make a pretty good TC but probably not as good as the best riders out there. And if it evntually get as good, well, then good for that manufacturer and they will be able to put that into their street bike for nothing, and I want one for my track days

Regarding tires, they would have three main functions. Slow it down, make it harder to ride and make tire conservation an issue again. But to do it they would need WSBK to play along.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Aug 6 2008, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
As you obviously mean to imply this would also mean no need for any rules regarding rider weights.


No, i just wanna see some of these new generation Moto GP heros push-start off the line