The Untouchables

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

#22 said:
... when he crashed in warmup at Silverstone 2013 and only by the grace of god did his bike not hit a marshal.

This was the exact crash I envision every time I hear people "reason" Rossi’s crashing out Marc "was not dangerous because it was at low speed." They can't imagine all the freak unforseen occurrences at the track, yet have plenty of examples to understand just how utterly dangerous was Rossi's action, an action I have said deserved a minimum 6 month ban from the sport (in addition to an immediate black flag). Rossi fans (and others) think it's beneath this discussion to invoke what happened to Simoncelli at this very track, even with this very rider involved, but it is absolutely relevant. The fact journalists and "experts", racers and former racers don't bring it up is mind-boggling as its a real example of what unforseen catastrophic things can happen in a crash event. And it's why something like what Rossi did should be taken so seriously, yet unbelievably it's been deemed a simple warning.

The crash at Silverstone 2013 involved a rider impacting another far off the track which had already come to a 'stop'. The machine of the second fallen rider caremeed into the other motorcycle at a high rate of speed, nearly causing injury to persons in the impact zone. This happened in practice, not a race, where in a race there is greater urgency. Furthermore, because this was early in the race, approaching riders would be bunched up, and battling for position. A crash of this type is highly likely. Not to mention target fixation.

The other incident that came to mind was from Wsbk, when Carlos Checa crashed out Max Neukirtcher, in similar fashion to Jerez 05 & 13 btw, however, the noteworthy part is that Neukirtcher was impaled by the footpeg and got stuck under his machine in an impact zone. The marshals in the Silverstone 2013 example were not hit because they were able to run away, in the nick of time, however the machine did impact the other one that was at rest.

These were the two incidents that came to mind when analyzing the dangers of what Rossi did. And these are foreseeable ones! What occurred to Simoncelli was unforseen but is still a testament to what can occur in any crash at any time at any speed on the track.

J4rn0, shame on you and anybody who has argued in favor of Rossi for what he did at Sepang, of all places. You and anybody who understands racing should have been calling for Rossi to be banned, stripped of his license, and made to be shamed for what he did in the same way other athletes have destroyed their credibility.

J4rn0 · Nov 25, 2015

#22 said:
See this is the problem J4rno. "Because you are not favouring Rossi you are wrong". I, and countless other posters on here say the same thing and yet we all hate Rossi? I admire Rossi's skill, I just don't suck up to the Yellow Army and buy all of their ........ that Rossi is, was and always will be the greatest and can do no wrong.

Again, you seem to make statements about knowing what I'd say if it was anyone other than Rossi involved like you know me and my thoughts factually, just as you claim to know what Marquez is thinking all the time. I don't care who it is, crashing someone in racing is UNNACCEPTABLE. I've had it done to me, and I've seen it done to others. If you think I'm Marquez biased you are wrong. I was one of many who suggested he be banned after the Willairot Moto2 crash and again when he crashed in warmup at Silverstone 2013 and only by the grace of god did his bike not hit a marshal.

My ONLY negative bias is towards riders who show scant regard for the safety of others on tracks. Be it Marco Simoncelli, Marc Marquez or the great Valentino Rossi. NO ONE is immune from criticism if they danger other riders, and you'll find that in the past I have been extremely vocal about that point. Hell I had an argument with Jumkie over Suzuka 2014 and the Jules Bianchi incident. You however, seem happy to defend Rossi when he pushed another rider off track but want to hang Marquez from a post for 'goading him' by doing nothing other than hard racing.

You just supported my point above. You are excusing Rossi's actions but saying Marquez taunted him and goaded him and deserved it. As has been said by many others on here, that's like saying a woman deserves to get ..... for wearing provocative clothing. Rossi could have backed off and waited for things to settle, pulled the pin and gotten clear of Marquez or one of 147 other things when instead, he chose to, in a pre-meditated and calculated fashion, to force a rival rider off the track. There is absolutely no excuse for that, none.

You ask if Rossi deserved what he got from Marquez. How about if I ask "Did Marquez deserve to be run off the track by Rossi?" and if the answer is anything but "No" then your bias is such that you favour Rossi over the sport.

Again, you say Rossi didn't deserve how Marquez treated him from past fouls, so with that logic how did Marquez deserve to be run off the track by Rossi?

I agree, penalties should have been given on their own merit and it's the 'merit' of considerable political and commercial influence that Rossi brings that saw him get off with a slap on the wrist for an offence that many, including a former GP champion, have openly stated they would have been excluded from the event for.

Rossi has no excuses for what he did at Sepang and can only blame himself for that. But you call a slap on a wrist something that meant saying bye bye to any realistic hope of winning a world title? The 3-points penalty actually had the same effect as a black flag. The punishment was real.

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi has no excuses for what he did at Sepang and can only blame himself for that. But you call a slap on a wrist something that meant saying bye bye to any realistic hope of winning a WORLD TITLE? The 3-points penalty actually had the same effect as a black flag. The punishment was real.

The "punishment" ONLY became tangible because he already had 1 point. Otherwise it would have been on paper only, no real consequences on the track.

And J4rn0, you and anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, from racers, experts, journalists, and former racers, anybody not calling for an immediate DQ and consideration of banning the man around blinded and have not considered the implications. You guys keep looking at all this .... like above, like Race Direction did, some correlation to the 'WORLD TITLE ' or supposed 'provocation' and continue to miss the seriousness of Rossi's action.

WHAT ROSSI DID COULD HAVE KILLED MARQUEZ IN THE SAME WAY SIMONCELLI DIED! ....., IT COULD HAVE LED TO ROSSI’S DEATH HIMSELF! (Or a rider behind them!)

#22 · Nov 25, 2015

I've said it before Jums, but people were laughing at Lorenzo when in the Estoril press conference 2011 Simoncelli simply joked "Well then, I'll be arrested" when Lorenzoquestioned his wildness. They then didn't take him seriously when he said:

Everyone is laughing, but it is not funny because we are playing with our lives and riding at 200mph. On bikes that are very powerful and very heavy. It is not mini-bikes. It is a dangerous sport, so you have to think what you do.

The journalists encouraged Simoncelli's behaviour because he was 'exciting' and while he calmed down, it was both painfully ironic and sad that it was he who perished in what was an unforseeable incident and not something premeditated or through stupidity. Fans, journalists and officials had a sobering dose of reality and that even if you loathe him, Lorenzo was right.

Of course, J4rno will choose to ignore the fact that you, I and many others have said other riders, including Marquez, should have gotten far stricter punishments over the years, he will ignore these because now we are aiming this opinion towards Valentino Rossi and this is the culmination of money/political interests becoming more important from right and wrong and the safety of not only riders, but more importantly marshalls who VOLUNTEER to work at the track, and without which there would be no racing. Look how close Marquez's bike is to killing someone here:

He should have been given a one race ban for that, I stated it then and I state it now. However, as stupid as that was, it was NOT premeditated as Rossi's move was, and as such makes Rossi's move far far worse. I agree, he should have been banned for 6 months.

Finally, people often use as a defence "If Lorenzo had done that you'd be defending him" but the FACT is that Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa and Marc Marquez DIDN'T do it, but Valentino Rossi DID

#22 · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi has no excuses for what he did at Sepang and can only blame himself for that. But you call a slap on a wrist something that meant saying bye bye to any realistic hope of winning a world title? The 3-points penalty actually had the same effect as a black flag. The punishment was real.

With all due respect, it wasn't. He still kept his championship points which meant he went into the title decider ahead and as a result had less pressure than Lorenzo. All that had to happen was a mechanical failure or a fall from Lorenzo, and Rossi would have won the championship. It has also been proven multiple times that Rossi's race result would have been exactly the same had he not started from the back of the grid.

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

#22 said:
I've said it before Jums, but people were laughing at Lorenzo when in the Estoril press conference 2011 Simoncelli simply joked "Well then, I'll be arrested" when Lorenzoquestioned his wildness. They then didn't take him seriously when he said:

The journalists encouraged Simoncelli's behaviour because he was 'exciting' and while he calmed down, it was both painfully ironic and sad that it was he who perished in what was an unforseeable incident and not something premeditated or through stupidity. Fans, journalists and officials had a sobering dose of reality and that even if you loathe him, Lorenzo was right.

Of course, J4rno will choose to ignore the fact that you, I and many others have said other riders, including Marquez, should have gotten far stricter punishments over the years, he will ignore these because now we are aiming this opinion towards Valentino Rossi and this is the culmination of money/political interests becoming more important from right and wrong and the safety of not only riders, but more importantly marshalls who VOLUNTEER to work at the track, and without which there would be no racing. Look how close Marquez's bike is to killing someone here:

He should have been given a one race ban for that, I stated it then and I state it now. However, as stupid as that was, it was NOT premeditated as Rossi's move was, and as such makes Rossi's move far far worse. I agree, he should have been banned for 6 months.

Finally, people often use as a defence "If Lorenzo had done that you'd be defending him" but the FACT is that Jorge Lorenzo, Dani Pedrosa and Marc Marquez DIDN'T do it, but Valentino Rossi DID

Outstanding post!

Rossi even put himself in danger, as he could have lost his balance, fell off, been stuck under the bike, and another machine careem into him, paralyzing him (keep in mind how little it took for Mr. Rainey) or even death (Sic).

It really is shameful and unbelievable how people defending Rossi gloss over the possibility involved in a crash.

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

Here is an interesting video, and appropriately titled " unusual crash". It is comical, but is also a great example of how ANYTHING can happen in a crash. Its absurd to think because a rider walks away that a crash was not dangerous, as any crash has the potential of taking life.

And YES, that guy is wearing a ROSSI 46 helmet!

"An unusual crash for two race bikes" on YouTube

JPSLotus · Nov 25, 2015

I have studied numerous fatal crashes motor racing, and you know what many of them have in common?

A seemingly simple issue has a tendency to go very wrong, in a split second. Or a driver/rider error results in something far worse than what you ever would have expected.

Do we really need to bring up Wayne Rainey's crash at Misano?

99/100 times he walks away like nothing.

That's what can happen in any crash. That's why it is ....... pathetic that fans actually are trying to trivialize the crash by claiming the speed was low.

40MPH is slow?

Does this mean I can knock you off your motorcycle at that speed, and you'll just say, "Oh no big deal, it was only 40MPH" even if you break a leg or a neck. There was someone in my area who had a motorcycle accident at 40MPH and suffered an internal decapitation.

Only a clown would trivialize the speed.

Oh wait, I forgot, the clowns are defending the ultimate clown, so I shouldn't even be shocked.

steeeeeve · Nov 25, 2015

Rossi should be banned for life. He's lucky he didn't kill every single person in the venue with that slow wide move!

J4rn0 · Nov 25, 2015

Jumkie said:
WHAT ROSSI DID COULD HAVE KILLED MARQUEZ IN THE SAME WAY SIMONCELLI DIED! ....., IT COULD HAVE LED TO ROSSI’S DEATH HIMSELF! (Or a rider behind them!)

I can see you are writing from pub! Was the drink enough? Something strong I guess...

Even if by any chance you claimed you were sober while writing such preposterous and dramatic nonsense, I fully appreciate that nothing short of a public execution of the Yellow Enemy would satisfy you. Fact.

For the record (not for you Jums, I reckon you are beyond reason), -- that crash happened at low speed, because Rossi slowed down a lot while forcing Marquez wide. Fact.

No way anybody would have died there, because they were at low speed, at the edge of the track and way off the racing line, -- no riders were passing there. Fact.

Enjoy your drinks Jums. I think I'm going to have a beer myself -- only one. Cheers.

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Enjoy your drinks Jums. I think I'm going to have a beer myself -- only one. Cheers.

Nastro Azzurro?

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
For the record (not for you Jums, I reckon you are beyond reason), -- that crash happened at low speed, because Rossi slowed down a lot while forcing Marquez wide. Fact.

No way anybody would have died there, because they were at low speed, at the edge of the track and way off the racing line, -- no riders were passing there. Fact.

This is the level of insanity! Crutchlow was already walking away, his bike at rest, when Marquez's machine collided with it coming within inches of killing a marshal. Fact.

J4rn0, what do you think killed Simoncelli?

povol · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
When I said "both should be punished" it was BEFORE Race Direction decision, only hours after the race. It obviously was my feeling, meaning "they both are guilty". This is amply demonstrated by what I said subsequently. So do not play games. Read my opening statement in the ....... thread!

After the verdict I respected the decision and NEVER called on Race Direction to punish Marquez. I said 20 times I considered it correct to punish Rossi and that Marquez was not punishable against the rules -- my only criticism was that they should have moved earlier, before the race, as it was clear that something was going to happen.

If you don't get it, it only means you don't want to. Oh well, I can live with that...

I said it immediately after the facts, but even after two weeks I feel the same: both Rossi and Marquez should have been punished at Sepang.

Yet here you are 2 weeks later still saying Marquez should have been punished. You are the definition of paradox.

povol · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Rossi has no excuses for what he did at Sepang and can only blame himself for that. But you call a slap on a wrist something that meant saying bye bye to any realistic hope of winning a world title? The 3-points penalty actually had the same effect as a black flag. The punishment was real.

The penalty had virtually no bearing on the outcome of that race or the championship. The only way Rossi was winning the title in Valencia was if something unexpected happened tp Lorenzo, Marquez or Pedrosa.

JPSLotus · Nov 25, 2015

Jumkie said:
J4rn0, what do you think killed Simoncelli?

Not being considerate enough in getting out of Rossi's way, obviously.

povol · Nov 25, 2015

J4rn0 said:
I can see you are writing from pub! Was the drink enough? Something strong I guess...

Even if by any chance you claimed you were sober while writing such preposterous and dramatic nonsense, I fully appreciate that nothing short of a public execution of the Yellow Enemy would satisfy you. Fact.

For the record (not for you Jums, I reckon you are beyond reason), -- that crash happened at low speed, because Rossi slowed down a lot while forcing Marquez wide. Fact.

No way anybody would have died there, because they were at low speed, at the edge of the track and way off the racing line, -- no riders were passing there. Fact.

Enjoy your drinks Jums. I think I'm going to have a beer myself -- only one. Cheers.

WHAT IF, one of the riders in the trailing group has an accident while Marquez is down and the corner workers are helping him up. There are numerous horrors that could occur, yet you continue to either play stupid, or you are truly a bopper to the nth degree.Which is ironic because you originally set out in this thread to prove you were not.

#22 · Nov 25, 2015

I have to agree with Bernie on this one:

Bernie Ecclestone says he would have disqualified Valentino Rossi for his coming together with Marc Marquez during October's controversial Malaysian MotoGP had it been up to him.

Rossi received three penalty points from Race Direction for 'irresponsible riding' after he forced Marquez wide before contact was made between the pair, with his Honda rival crashing out of the race having engaged in a fierce battle with the Italian on the previous three laps.

When added to previous penalty points applied earlier in the season, Rossi was forced to start the title deciding Valencia MotoGP from the back of the grid, a punishment that would thus allow Jorge Lorenzo to win the race and snatch the title at the death.

While figures in F1 and MotoGP were largely split on whether Rossi's penalty was justified, F1 supremo Ecclestone says he would have gone as far as excluding the Italian – who got to keep his third place finish in the Sepang race - from the results altogether.

"Rossi would have been disqualified,” he told Gazzetta dello Sport. “He would have had a black flag."
"What happened is completely wrong. It is a warning for F1.

"Let me give an example. Let's suppose that Ferrari is in the running for the title and Mercedes blocks them with one of its customer teams, what would happen?”

With Lorenzo's third crown denying Rossi an eighth title in the premier class, the Yamaha rider's actions drew a mixed response from figures in F1, with Sebastian Vettel airing his support saying he thought 'Valentino did the right thing', while Felipe Massa called it 'a big mistake'.

Jumkie · Nov 25, 2015

I can't wait to hear Vettel cry next time someone crashes into him.

Keshav · Nov 25, 2015

Juan Derribar said:
Sorry Mick. I get my 3rd world countries mixed up
Here you go

JPSLotus said:
Oh you mean Thailand, where the police has a reputation of being notoriously corrupt?

And of course there are no underage prostitutes or corrupt cops in the USA.

Mick D · Nov 25, 2015

I do not live in a civilized country. I assume JKD and Jum believe they do. I DID say civilized world. But if u guys are comfortable comparing the greatest nation on earth to Thailand and Indonesia more power to ya...

The Untouchables

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