The Untouchables

Actually, the problem there is the same as yours Jums: it's "not reading" what someone else writes, but reply anyway, according to your own assumptions of what that person thinks. What to say? As you know, assumption is the mother of all fuckups...!

J4rn0 said:

As you know, ASSUMPTION is the mother of all fuckups...!

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Ironically, it's what you're advocating for Race Direction to have taken action against Marquez.

Juan Derribar said:

If that is true I find it absurd.
Im a fan that watches racing without an overly critical or overly analytical approach. Im probabaly in the majority. If I see two guys exchanging great clean passes I call it racing. Regardless of their motive or ability, as long as its clean, its racing, well within the rulebook If the organization that runs the sport is finding fault and passing judgement over riders for doing what their paid to do then this series is unquestionably disconnected from its fanbase and overall purpose

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You know I rarely respond to any of your posts, and when I do so, I make a point of saying that nothing I say is personal or meant to offend. That said: The generally acccepted definition of racing is based on the idea that all protagonists involved are competing; in the world of racing, that entails getting past your competitor and taking the spot on the podium (or the one nearest possible) to earn points.

If we accept the realistic judgement that MM's motive was to slow down Rossi then - he wasn't "racing". He was being a ....; which as I have pointed out repeatedly, is NOT what Honda pays him to do.

As regards the desires of the fanbase; will you concede that serious fans want to see racing?

Or should the desires of the those who merely want to be entertained at any cost and maybe see a bit of blood on the tracks, be what guides those who make the rules and regulations?

Pretty much everyone on this site proclaims themselves to be "serious" fans and set themselves above and apart from the glory-seeking cretins in the yellow afros. While we all have favorites, we all want to see the fastest guy in front at the end regardless of whether we like him or not.

I, like everyone else here, enjoy a good duel for best points paying position. Some will insist that what happened at Sepang was racing; but in my estimate it was the MotoGP equivalent of handbags at high noon.

JPSLotus said:

Yes, but if he felt this way, couldn't he have just kept it behind closed doors?

It's not like he had no opportunity to say this to MM since they were in the room just moments before. Instead he comes out in front of the cameras and makes the announcement. It was completely unwarranted because all it did was add fuel to the fire.

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He was censuring him. It was the only "penalty" he could apply for what he believed was a shameful action on Marquez's part that brought unwanted controversy and spoiled the end of a great season. To do it behind closed doors would have no value. It would be like sending a kid to bed with no dinner when he's got a stash of goodies, a computer, an X-Box and a 60" TV in his bedroom.

Little Walter said:

He was censuring him. It was the only "penalty" he could apply for what he believed was a shameful action on Marquez's part that brought unwanted controversy and spoiled the end of a great season. To do it behind closed doors would have no value. It would be like sending a kid to bed with no dinner when he's got a stash of goodies, a computer, an X-Box and a 60" TV in his bedroom.

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Was Rossi censured for Motegi 2010, or Laguna 2008?

JPSLotus said:

Was Rossi censured for Motegi 2010, or Laguna 2008?

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No. But I think that was Walters point. Rossi was attempting to punish Marc for what he believed in his convoluted mind was the Spaniard's offense. Which basically worked since RD/Mike Webb also censured Marc publicly.

Don't forget the grilling Rossi got after Jerez 2005. Oh, wait....

Kropotkin said:

Lorenzo was riding like a .... in the hope he might win a championship. Marquez was riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego. Hence the warning.

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How do you perceive Rossi's ride in Valencia 2013? Was he riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego by not helping his teammate win the title? Was it "obvious" to you that he wasn't pushing?

SlartyBartFast said:

How do you perceive Rossi's ride in Valencia 2013? Was he riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego by not helping his teammate win the title? Was it "obvious" to you that he wasn't pushing?

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I perceive he got his arse handed to him in a basket with a bow on. He simply was not fast enough.

J4rn0 said:

MM's intention at Sepang was evident and although he formally stayed clear of punishable behavior he was provoking (by passing and then allowing himself to be passed again, and so on) a dangerous situation that could have ended in a high speed crash, much worse than what happened through Rossi's punishable move.

Nobody knowledgeable and unbiased (or in his senses) saw that dangerous farce as a "beautiful duel". WTF, 25 passes and counter-passes in two or three laps are as preposterous in our sport as a soccer match's score of 25 to 26. Let's be honest. It doesn't happen even in Moto3.

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Well said.

Juan Derribar said:

So race direction should ban all passing because by Jarnos assertion passing is too dangerous?

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And based on J4rn0's perception, whenever Rossi accuses people Race Direction should jump into action before a race and warn the mothafucker that he is GUILTY of accusation, in addition Mr. Spin Webb will be watching his ... for any passing that's clean but suspect of racing cleaning.

J4rn0 said:

MM's intention at Sepang was evident and although he formally STAYED CLEAR of punishable behavior he was provoking (by passing and then allowing himself to be passed again, and so on) a dangerous situation that could have ended in a high speed crash, MUCH WORSE than what HAPPENED through ROSSI'S PUNISHABLE MOVE.
.

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I love how J4rn0 says Marc's clean racing could have ended much worse than Rossi deliberately crashing out a competitor in an impact zone with other riders approaching at full speed. Something much worse, like some freak unforseen incident, like say a rider crashing into a downed rider, like maybe Marc getting stuck under his bike, then possibly another rider running over his head, killing him. Nah, that could never happen at Sepang.

J4rn0 said:

When I said "both should be punished" it was BEFORE Race Direction decision, only hours after the race. It obviously was my feeling, meaning "they both are guilty". This is amply demonstrated by what I said subsequently. So do not play games. Read my opening statement in the ....... thread!

After the verdict I respected the decision and NEVER called on Race Direction to punish Marquez. I said 20 times I considered it correct to punish Rossi and that Marquez was not punishable against the rules -- my only criticism was that they should have moved earlier, before the race, as it was clear that something was going to happen.

If you don't get it, it only means you don't want to. Oh well, I can live with that...

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What would have been reasonable would have been to require a public withdrawal by Rossi of his unprovable and prejudicial allegations which had brought the sport into disrepute and already ensured the championship was blighted whatever happened in the remaining races, and a quiet word with MM that while they could understand that he might feel "pissed off" (as you put it in regard to Rossi and a previous incident) he shouldn't go overboard in retaliation.

Btw, if Rossi was "pissed off" by the MM LS pass, one word, tough, same as MM in regard to Assen 2015. I have to give one thing to MM, he is seldom hypocritical and has made no public complaint about his own tactics being reversed on him. I was previously of the opinion that the same applied to VR in the main, but am no longer of that view.

My attitude watching the Sepang race live was that MM was riding as if he was trying to prove something to Rossi, which is David Emmett's point I think, but that this was mainly by being absolutely determined not to be passed by VR, and that he was racing fairly cleanly (particularly by his standards) while pushing hard. I believe David also said that he didn't think he was necessarily deliberately slowing Rossi which was also my view, and to say he was deliberately letting himself be re-passed is to venture into the realm of assumption yourself. I think MM does have an obligation in that situation not to take a contender out by a rash move, and the standard for his riding should probably be about the level displayed by Colin Edwards when VR's team-mate in the tight title race in late 2006; he very definitely attempted to hold up VR's challengers (which as I have said imo is not definite about MM at Sepang), but wasn't as aggressive as MM was. Again, Rossi was making equally aggressive passes on MM in the recent race however, and had the option of accepting he couldn't pass MM; I am not sure we ever saw what pace MM might have in that situation, although it is understandable that waiting to see wasn't VR's first choice tactic.

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, this is awesome Mick. Cops also murder people on a regular basis, guilty or not.

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Hahaha, only in your country, not so much in the civilized world.

Juan Derribar said:

Civilized..... You mean like your country?

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1. Geographically challenged.
2. Indo not part of the civilized world.

Juan Derribar said:

Civilized..... You mean like your country?

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erm... that would be a different country.
Unless you only know two countries: don't need a passport and need a passport?

Jumkie said:

I love how J4rn0 says Marc's clean racing could have ended much worse than Rossi deliberately crashing out a competitor in an impact zone with other riders approaching at full speed. Something much worse, like some freak unforseen incident, like say a rider crashing into a downed rider, like maybe Marc getting stuck under his bike, then possibly another rider running over his head, killing him. Nah, that could never happen at Sepang.

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Exactly what I was thinking as I read J4rno's post. T11 and T14 have similar corner speeds too. Yes J4rno, I know you will argue that the actual speed Marquez was going was much slower than the optimum corner speed but it's the principle. How you can say someone riding hard is more dangerous that someone intentionally forcing someone off a motorcycle is beyond me.

You make very technical arguments, the problem is they are always in bias of Rossi. Whenever an example of when Rossi rode dangerously is brought up, you find some excuse to diminish it in your head. You have to be objective, and to be objective you have to admit that if you feel Marquez was riding that dangerously, then Rossi has in his career ridden just as dangerously too.

#22 said:

Exactly what I was thinking as I read J4rno's post. T11 and T14 have similar corner speeds too. Yes J4rno, I know you will argue that the actual speed Marquez was going was much slower than the optimum corner speed but it's the principle. How you can say someone riding hard is more dangerous that someone intentionally forcing someone off a motorcycle is beyond me.

You make very technical arguments, the problem is they are always in bias of Rossi. Whenever an example of when Rossi rode dangerously is brought up, you find some excuse to diminish it in your head. You have to be objective, and to be objective you have to admit that if you feel Marquez was riding that dangerously, then Rossi has in his career ridden just as dangerously too.

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Technical and logical arguments can be judged on a rational basis -- no need to discount them invoking a supposed bias.

If you looked into your own bias you'd see that if the rider involved with Marquez at Sepang wasn't Rossi, your opinion would be different and probably more objective. I can claim to have less emotional bias toward Valentino Rossi than you or others! Yours is negative of course...!

Rossi certainly rode like a .... occasionally, but that's a very small percentage in the statistics of his 20 years of activity. Does this mean he now "deserved" what he got from Marquez? Nope, it doesn't work like that in sports.

No soccer referee would say that a player deserved a foul because he himself did fouls to others previously! Such a primitive logic would destroy any sport. Fouls have to be punished on their own merit, and warning to players who provoke other players can be given -- and are given -- by the referees even if an actual foul has not been committed (yet).

J4rn0 said:

Technical and logical arguments can be judged on a rational basis -- no need to discount them invoking a supposed bias.

If you looked into your own bias you'd see that if the rider involved with Marquez at Sepang wasn't Rossi, your opinion would be different and probably more objective. I can claim to have less emotional bias toward Valentino Rossi than you or others! Yours is negative of course...!

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See this is the problem J4rno. "Because you are not favouring Rossi you are wrong". I, and countless other posters on here say the same thing and yet we all hate Rossi? I admire Rossi's skill, I just don't suck up to the Yellow Army and buy all of their ........ that Rossi is, was and always will be the greatest and can do no wrong.

Again, you seem to make statements about knowing what I'd say if it was anyone other than Rossi involved like you know me and my thoughts factually, just as you claim to know what Marquez is thinking all the time. I don't care who it is, crashing someone in racing is UNNACCEPTABLE. I've had it done to me, and I've seen it done to others. If you think I'm Marquez biased you are wrong. I was one of many who suggested he be banned after the Willairot Moto2 crash and again when he crashed in warmup at Silverstone 2013 and only by the grace of god did his bike not hit a marshal.

My ONLY negative bias is towards riders who show scant regard for the safety of others on tracks. Be it Marco Simoncelli, Marc Marquez or the great Valentino Rossi. NO ONE is immune from criticism if they danger other riders, and you'll find that in the past I have been extremely vocal about that point. Hell I had an argument with Jumkie over Suzuka 2014 and the Jules Bianchi incident. You however, seem happy to defend Rossi when he pushed another rider off track but want to hang Marquez from a post for 'goading him' by doing nothing other than hard racing.

Rossi certainly rode like a .... occasionally, but that's a very small percentage in the statistics of his 20 years of activity. Does this mean he now "deserved" what he got from Marquez? Nope, it doesn't work like that in sports.

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You just supported my point above. You are excusing Rossi's actions but saying Marquez taunted him and goaded him and deserved it. As has been said by many others on here, that's like saying a woman deserves to get ..... for wearing provocative clothing. Rossi could have backed off and waited for things to settle, pulled the pin and gotten clear of Marquez or one of 147 other things when instead, he chose to, in a pre-meditated and calculated fashion, to force a rival rider off the track. There is absolutely no excuse for that, none.

You ask if Rossi deserved what he got from Marquez. How about if I ask "Did Marquez deserve to be run off the track by Rossi?" and if the answer is anything but "No" then your bias is such that you favour Rossi over the sport.

No soccer referee would say that a player deserved a foul because he himself did fouls to others previously! Such a primitive logic would destroy any sport. Fouls have to be punished on their own merit, and warning to players who provoke other players can be given -- and are given -- by the referees even if an actual foul has not been committed (yet).

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Again, you say Rossi didn't deserve how Marquez treated him from past fouls, so with that logic how did Marquez deserve to be run off the track by Rossi?

I agree, penalties should have been given on their own merit and it's the 'merit' of considerable political and commercial influence that Rossi brings that saw him get off with a slap on the wrist for an offence that many, including a former GP champion, have openly stated they would have been excluded from the event for.

J4rn0 said:

Technical and logical arguments can be judged on a rational basis -- no need to discount them invoking a supposed bias.

If you looked into your own bias you'd see that if the rider involved with Marquez at Sepang wasn't Rossi, your opinion would be different and probably more objective. I can claim to have less emotional bias toward Valentino Rossi than you or others! Yours is negative of course...!

Rossi certainly rode like a .... occasionally, but that's a very small percentage in the statistics of his 20 years of activity. Does this mean he now "deserved" what he got from Marquez? Nope, it doesn't work like that in sports.

No soccer referee would say that a player deserved a foul because he himself did fouls to others previously! Such a primitive logic would destroy any sport. Fouls have to be punished on their own merit, and warning to players who provoke other players can be given -- and are given -- by the referees even if an actual foul has not been committed (yet).

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Again, and again unusually, you are arguing illogically and with prejudice yourself.

It is one thing to argue MM deserved censure after the Sepang race, in regard to which I might still disagree with you.

You however on this very thread have expressed your disappointment that both riders were not spoken to before the Sepang race, when MM had very definitely done nothing deserving of censure by the stewards; his only offence at that time was hm having been the subject of unprovable and rather paranoid (imo and the opinion of others) allegations by VR.

Mick D said:

Hahaha, only in your country, not so much in the civilized world.

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Oh you mean Thailand, where the police has a reputation of being notoriously corrupt?