The Untouchables

#22 said:

Ironically, Lorenzo rode 'like a ....' in the early laps of the 2013 Valencia race, bunching the Honda's up in the hope other riders (Including Rossi I might add) could interfere with them.

I recall nobody calling Lorenzo out on his 'intent' nor any statements to tell Lorenzo to stop being said .......

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Lorenzo was riding like a .... in the hope he might win a championship. Marquez was riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego. Hence the warning.

JPSLotus said:

Yes, but if he felt this way, couldn't he have just kept it behind closed doors?

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Because my friends and colleagues surrounded him and started hammering him with questions, to which he gave an answer.

JPSLotus said:

It's not like he had no opportunity to say this to MM since they were in the room just moments before. Instead he comes out in front of the cameras and makes the announcement. It was completely unwarranted because all it did was add fuel to the fire.

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Wrong. He was asked, he gave an answer, he was right to let Marquez know he was under public scrutiny.

Kropotkin said:

Because my friends and colleagues surrounded him and started hammering him with questions, to which he gave an answer.

Wrong. He was asked, he gave an answer, he was right to let Marquez know he was under public scrutiny.

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So because he is getting hammered he had to say that?

I don't believe that for one second. He could easily have avoided stating that had he any desire to do so.

He was right to let MM know he was under public scrutiny? He was under public scrutiny precisely because of Rossi's dumb ....... statements in Sepang. You make it sound like everything was unknown till Webb opened his mouth. All Webb did was create an even worse situation by adding his two cents. There's nothing wrong with commenting on the discipline, but to have then added his personal thoughts was bad form and unprofessional.

Kropotkin said:

Lorenzo was riding like a .... in the hope he might win a championship. Marquez was riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego. Hence the warning.

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Who was it that instigated the entire thing?

Rossi.

JPSLotus said:

Who was it that instigated the entire thing?

Rossi.

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Depends where you place the beginning. In retrospect, we can see that this feud has been building up for quite some time. One of the eraly warning signs, and a noticeable one, was Marquez passing Rossi at Laguna at the corkscrew in that mocking way. The only reason to do that was to piss Rossi, -- and Rossi was definitely and seriously pissed, I know that for sure (but had to put up a smiling face). As Krop said, the two biggest egos of the paddock were destined to clash, sooner or later, in spite of all their marketing-driven public efforts to like and acknowledge each other.

povol said:

When it comes to handing out punishment, respected opinions mean NOTHING. That is why there is no rule about racing title contenders, its unenforceable. Mike Webb can no more set in his chair and say with 100% certainty that a rider is not giving his all at any particular moment than a 2 year old sitting on his dads lap at track side. You have to have facts, not opinions. Webb was out of line for for even mentioning Marquez's name in his statement because as he said, Marquez didnt break one rule. Its not against the rules to piss off Rossi as much as you want it to be. I was debating this debacle with a friend and he says, { Im done with Moto GP }. Of course i asked why and he says { I cant believe that they made Rossi start from the rear of the field when he was going for his 10th title, they should have fined him or punished him later and let him start at the front where he normally starts. I told him first off, Rossi qualified 12th, but thats not the point. The point is, just because of a riders name, you would like to see rules that are put in place for everyones safety just thrown to the wind to enhance his chances of winning another title. Imagine for a second what precedent you would set if you allowed riders to serve a sentence later when it suited their situation better. Riders would be knocking each other off left and right if they knew they could defer their penalties. That would be like me kicking the .... out of somebody, getting arrested, but deferring my jail sentence to when i was 80 years old as to not interfere with my current situation. Sorry judge, this really isnt a good time for me to go to jail, lets put that .... off till it really doesnt affect my life. Thats not reality, and is the reason Rossi fans are held in such disdain from the rest of the GP community.

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Again. I never said Marquez should have been punished with some kind of concrete penalty -- we have repeated until utter boredom that he wasn't punishable under the rules.

But, if he behaved like a .... and stretched the rules to a dangerous point, then he had to be admonished -- as he rightly was, because he did behave like a .....

You and others might not agree with this, but kindly consider stopping the litany of "MM-did-nothing-against-the-rules",-- because nobody is saying he did, here. And logically he wasn't punished, so what's the point.

Kropotkin said:

My mind remains unchanged. Marquez was riding like a ..... Not necessarily trying to slow Rossi up, but just make his life hell and teach him a lesson about the cost of ....... with him in public. He did nothing illegal, and was entirely within his right to do so, but he was very firmly pushing the envelope. Rossi was an ..... for losing his .... and causing Marquez to crash.

However, as someone who has worked with them both said to me, it was inevitable that something like this would happen, as they are the two biggest egos in the paddock.

Mike Webb was right to call them both in, and warn Marquez as well. The mistake he made was not calling them both in on Thursday night, asking what the .... Rossi thought he was playing at, and telling Marquez he had better behave like a grown up.

I do not expect my opinion to change yours. I offer my vision of events, which are indeed very much my own interpretation of the motives of others. But we interpret the motives of others all the time. For all you know, Rossi has been driven to keep racing from a need to impress the pet hamster he had when he was a small child, but never told anyone about. We will never know the truth.

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Interesting, thanx for responding. With all do respect, I actually find the idea to call them 'both' in before the race SOLELY based on Rossi's accusations an egregious use of Race Direction's authority. Sorry to disagree with you Krops, I'm just voicing my opinion in good faith sir. Davide Brivio said the same thing, that was to call them in before the race in light of Rossi's accusations. I find the acceptance to use Race Direction's authority as an extension of Rossi’s attempt to affect Marquez's riding on the track wholely out of order. I keep reading stuff like this and wonder how on earth did Rossi get so much influence in this sport that even the most basic principles of competition and the governing body's mission can be so turned on its head.

I've formulated my opinion, as well as others on this thread, who've done a better job in expressing why calling in Marquez to issue a pre-race warning is acting like a Rossi agent and a miscarriage of Race Direction's authority. I do agree that the organizers, perhaps Race Direction, should have called Rossi in to admonish him for these public accusations, because it was a red flag that the Italian was not in a correct state of mind to compete in good faith apart from the slanderous nature to call in question a fellow competitor's integrity (I'm sure you can relate to having your integrity questioned as a public figure, in fact you've expressed it with regards to Alzamora). If for at very least to express to Rossi from a non-yes-man point of view the folly and sordid nature of such accusations. So if Race Direction failed to do something before the race it was certainly to call Rossi on the carpet. His accusations tainted the entire sport!

I don't understand why "it was believed something like this was inevitable", that of an action to deliberately taking the extremely rare maneuver of crashing out a rival. I can see racing clashes but certainly not an openly deliberate action such as we witnessed at Sepang! I thought their clashes on the track, particularly in Argentina and Assen are these 'inevitable' "something like this" occurrences. But to fathom such an openly deliberate action seems extreme. I'm quite amazed at how glib we all describe this action quite frankly. We are talking something infinitely worse than a guy biting another in a competition. It wasn't just like the punt at Jerez or the cutting of the chicane at Laguna, yet the narrative has been strikingly similar. This is if Zinedine Zidane Rossi had gone up and kicked a guy in the back of the head. This rises to a higher level than a headbutt or a bite. Yet it's been roundly treated like a hard soccer tackle, not even a red card worth maneuver. Complete with the analysis of the slow mo to see if it was deserving of a yellow card. But it's no where near that level, it's much more cynical and malicious and extremely egregious.

Like you I don't expect neither of our opinions to change, but I do appreciate giving me an opportunity to exchange our takes; i should tell you, I am honestly moved by your "vision of events and interpretations" much more than other journalists and experts. This has been the case for many years. This may account for why I've expressed myself so harshly in the past, because I felt such disagreement with some of your takes that i was compelled to challenge you. I consider you highly amongst this sport's media (which sadly is lacking, perhaps because it's such a niche sport that the journalists are ultimately individual fans) even when I was giving u grief for it. Honestly Kropo, I wouldn't argue with others in that way because I would have gone into the discussion with such a poor esteem of them, as I have with certain journalists, experts, and those with a status to offer opinions. And lets be frank, we ALL think we are right. As you say, this is "your vision of the events and interpretation" and surely you have a unique insight, but I've also considered my insight unique as well, with both its limitations and advantages. The people who hang around places like this are the fraction of the sport who follow it intensely and are generally well informed (as much as we can I suppose). Powerslide is unique in a few aspects, one peculiarity has been in sharp focus the last month, contrasting other forum and social medis spaces as an island oasis kind of way. This particular episode has acted as a strainer, it has filtered many people in the sport, it's been fascinating, stunning, and both disappointing and uplifting. The contrast of opinion, from say Colin Edwards to Casey Stoner, from Matt Oxley to Trunkman, has been quite the exposé. I'm obviously in the minority opinion, but I'm comfortable with it, as history has often shown the minority opinion has often been correct despite it not prevailing in triumph. When I started reading you in 06 this was my general sentiment about your takes. Btw, I've been looking exceedingly forward to Trunkman's third installment of 'Doctored' with great anticipation. I don't think he or anyone could have imagined how the last events on the calendar would have unfolded, seemingly created specifically for such a topic. (Krops, this last paragraph was intended to be a compliment btw).

Kropotkin said:

Lorenzo was riding like a .... in the hope he might win a championship. Marquez was riding like a .... in defence of his massive ego. Hence the warning.

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"In defense of his massive ego"...no wonder Race Direction and all the journalists, experts, and paddock personnel called Rossi out for being a .... at Motegi 2010. Right?

Jumkie said:

Interesting, thanx for responding. With all do respect,

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all "due" respect.

J4rn0 said:

...the two biggest egos of the paddock were destined to clash, sooner or later, in spite of all their marketing-driven public efforts to like and acknowledge each other.

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And they did clash, in a normal acceptable way at various venues and events. Except when Rossi went Val- Qaeda on Marquez at Sepang. This is not a "clash". What happened at Argentina and Assen, that is the inevitable clash of competition, what happened at Sepang was Rossi going terrorist. There is a difference, but you and those who share your opinion seem incapable of recognizing it.

Kropotkin said:

all "due" respect.

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Hahaha, I know. You corrected me once, remember? The fact that you corrected me was inputted into the hard drive to be used for effect. Another reason why Powi is unique, we will use whatever to ruffle eachother.

Jumkie said:

Hahaha, I know. You corrected me once, remember? The fact that you corrected me was inputted into the hard drive to be used for effect. Another reason why Powi is unique, we will use whatever to ruffle eachother.

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At least you know the difference between lose and loose. That makes you pretty literate in my book.

J4rn0 said:

Again. I never said Marquez should have been punished with some kind of concrete penalty -- we have repeated until utter boredom that he wasn't punishable under the rules.

But, if he behaved like a .... and stretched the rules to a dangerous point, then he had to be admonished -- as he rightly was, because he did behave like a .....

You and others might not agree with this, but kindly consider stopping the litany of "MM-did-nothing-against-the-rules",-- because nobody is saying he did, here. And logically he wasn't punished, so what's the point.

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I say "almost" any other rider, because precisely Marc Marquez would have probably received the same kind of soft treatment, had he been in Rossi's position. In fact at Sepang he put up a very personal fight against Rossi. he had been provoked by Rossi's allegations during the press conference -- which is probably true, but that's not a justification.
It was so evident that some form of reprisal should have been given to him too. One could say
I said it immediately after the facts, but even after two weeks I feel the same: both Rossi and Marquez should have been punished at Sepang.

Dude, the entire ....... thread is based on your belief that Marquez should have been punished. I mentioned early on in this thread that your walking the fence passive aggressive stance on the matter was not fooling anyone

J4rn0 said:

Again. I never said Marquez should have been punished with some kind of concrete penalty -- we have repeated until utter boredom that he wasn't punishable under the rules.

But, if he behaved like a .... and stretched the rules to a dangerous point, then he had to be admonished -- as he rightly was, because he did behave like a .....

You and others might not agree with this, but kindly consider stopping the litany of "MM-did-nothing-against-the-rules",-- because nobody is saying he did, here. And logically he wasn't punished, so what's the point.

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No, it is worth repeating that Marquez operated within the rules, because you have decided that he did something wrong.

You can't fathom that Marc raced Rossi to BEAT him NOT to TOY with him! And the only reason for that belief is your FAITH in Rossi's accusations. You didn't believe Iannone or Marc were toying with Rossi at Phillip Island, did you after the race? You are weak minded because you, like many, allowed yourself to be susceptible to such baseless accusations.

You're convinced he toyed with Rossi, and your smoking gun is to say 'just look at how he raced him'--cleanly! That's how perverse this whole thing has got. Marc didn't deserve to be warned as much as Rossi was never going to be warned for his "defense of ego" at Motegi 2010. Certainly you and the hordes of Rossi fans wouldn't have stood for it, if Race Direction had officially pronounced, 'we consider Rossi was at fault for riding like a ...., jeopardizing Lorenzo in a race while not being a title contender.' Lorenzo could have easily voiced McCarthy's accusations before Motegi. Then that would have tainted the exchange on the track, but not really because Lorenzo would have been dismissed and laughed and booed off the stage. But I could have seen the reaction now all of you saying how Lorenzo would have lost dignity and respect and how marvelous Rossi is. You think you would have stood for race direction to warn Rossi before the race and then publicly questioned his integrity after? Hell no, you and the Yellow Army would have been looking to lynch Lorenzo and Race Direction.

In domestics cops admonish both sides regardless of guilt and without evidence every day...

Motegi 2010 has been excused by many with the logic of, "Lorenzo already had the title wrapped up."

No consistency to be had on that one.

Mick D said:

In domestics cops admonish both sides regardless of guilt and without evidence every day...

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Hahaha, this is awesome Mick. Cops also murder people on a regular basis, guilty or not.

Mick D said:

In domestics cops admonish both sides regardless of guilt and without evidence just yesterday...

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Fixed

povol said:

I say "almost" any other rider, because precisely Marc Marquez would have probably received the same kind of soft treatment, had he been in Rossi's position. In fact at Sepang he put up a very personal fight against Rossi. he had been provoked by Rossi's allegations during the press conference -- which is probably true, but that's not a justification.
It was so evident that some form of reprisal should have been given to him too. One could say
I said it immediately after the facts, but even after two weeks I feel the same: both Rossi and Marquez should have been punished at Sepang.

Dude, the entire ....... thread is based on your belief that Marquez should have been punished. I mentioned early on in this thread that your walking the fence passive aggressive stance on the matter was not fooling anyone

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When I said "both should be punished" it was BEFORE Race Direction decision, only hours after the race. It obviously was my feeling, meaning "they both are guilty". This is amply demonstrated by what I said subsequently. So do not play games. Read my opening statement in the ....... thread!

After the verdict I respected the decision and NEVER called on Race Direction to punish Marquez. I said 20 times I considered it correct to punish Rossi and that Marquez was not punishable against the rules -- my only criticism was that they should have moved earlier, before the race, as it was clear that something was going to happen.

If you don't get it, it only means you don't want to. Oh well, I can live with that...

Povol, you see, the problem is your reading not J4rn0's writing. It depends on what your definition of is, is.