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Injuries are part of any athletic sport and do ruin careers. Spies may be a great rider with massive talent but for now his time is done in highly competitive field of MotoGP where every seat is precious. He needs to finish respectfully this season better than he is running now and really make a mark next season or he should be replaced. Injury is a terrible thing but in this sport nobody is going to hold you a spot forever like in other mainstream sports.
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Kronikinsomniak
Better than he is running now? Well, lets see how he compares to the Greatest of All Time so far on a Ducati GP<strike>12</strike>13. Do we concede he is injured.... So lets compare VR to Spies running so far from last year to this "now" year.
2012 (Fully fit Rossi, After a year on the Duc)
Round 1: Qual 12th Race 10th
2013 (Injured Spies, Debut, first ever race on Duc)
Round 1: Qual 14th Race 10th
2012 (Fully fit Rossi, After a year on the Duc. btw at a familiar track)
Round 2: Qual 13th Race 9th
2013 (Injured Spies, Debut, second ever race on Duc, btw, at highly physical track)
Round 2: Qual 12th Race 13th
Better than he is running now? Well, lets see how he compares to the Greatest of All Time so far on a Ducati GP<strike>12</strike>13. Do we concede he is injured.... So lets compare VR to Spies running so far from last year to this "now" year.
2012 (Fully fit Rossi, After a year on the Duc)
Round 1: Qual 12th Race 10th
2013 (Injured Spies, Debut, first ever race on Duc)
Round 1: Qual 14th Race 10th
2012 (Fully fit Rossi, After a year on the Duc. btw at a familiar track)
Round 2: Qual 13th Race 9th
2013 (Injured Spies, Debut, second ever race on Duc, btw, at highly physical track)
Round 2: Qual 12th Race 13th
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Jumkie
Yes better, he is dead last of all the satellite riders. Smith is like what, 24 seconds in front of him? He is injured, so what? That is my point, in this sport with limited seats the demands are much different. Teams can't afford to just pay a player to warm a bench all year when there are limited funds and only 2 seats. Bad like on Yamaha the previous season but its not like he was doing spectacular even when things were going well.
I'm not saying being injured is a terrible reason. It is a valid one but part of the careers for MotoGP riders really depends on how their luck is when the cards are dealt. Riders' careers are far from fair when it comes to securing rides, lucky podium, and avoiding injures. It is just how the sport works with such a fast influx of new riders and limited competitive seats. I mean what if Stoner suffered a terrible injury for half the season on the Ducati, or had terrible bad luck mechanical issues. It wouldn't be his fault but it would've definitely affected his career and maybe even his shot at a Factory Honda. I feel terrible for Spies but this is the situation that his career is in.
Edit: As pointed out, bad analogy with Stoner but just saying how it takes a lot of extra effort to overcome bad luck in people's GP careers and he is not doing enough.
Yes better, he is dead last of all the satellite riders. Smith is like what, 24 seconds in front of him? He is injured, so what? That is my point, in this sport with limited seats the demands are much different. Teams can't afford to just pay a player to warm a bench all year when there are limited funds and only 2 seats. Bad like on Yamaha the previous season but its not like he was doing spectacular even when things were going well.
I'm not saying being injured is a terrible reason. It is a valid one but part of the careers for MotoGP riders really depends on how their luck is when the cards are dealt. Riders' careers are far from fair when it comes to securing rides, lucky podium, and avoiding injures. It is just how the sport works with such a fast influx of new riders and limited competitive seats. I mean what if Stoner suffered a terrible injury for half the season on the Ducati, or had terrible bad luck mechanical issues. It wouldn't be his fault but it would've definitely affected his career and maybe even his shot at a Factory Honda. I feel terrible for Spies but this is the situation that his career is in.
Edit: As pointed out, bad analogy with Stoner but just saying how it takes a lot of extra effort to overcome bad luck in people's GP careers and he is not doing enough.
Austin
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Kronikinsomniak
Stoner missed three rounds and suffered through a handful more with poor (by his standards) results in 2009 because of illness. Those with any sense saw through that misfortune for the talent that he is.
The Ducati is a career killer. I won't argue that Spies's results have been disappointing, but, then again, so have Iannone's, Hayden's, and even Dovi's. (I'm impressed with what Dovi's done on the Ducati, but if we're going to ignore the handicap of Bologna's Frankenstein, then you have to consider his results disappointing.)
All that said, I think Spies is easily expendable and ultimately will wind up on a Suzuki or in World Supers for 2014.
Stoner missed three rounds and suffered through a handful more with poor (by his standards) results in 2009 because of illness. Those with any sense saw through that misfortune for the talent that he is.
The Ducati is a career killer. I won't argue that Spies's results have been disappointing, but, then again, so have Iannone's, Hayden's, and even Dovi's. (I'm impressed with what Dovi's done on the Ducati, but if we're going to ignore the handicap of Bologna's Frankenstein, then you have to consider his results disappointing.)
All that said, I think Spies is easily expendable and ultimately will wind up on a Suzuki or in World Supers for 2014.
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Austin
I stand corrected on the Stoner analogy. My point is that .... happens to riders' in their careers, many times it is out the riders' hands. Call it fate or whatever but unless one has massive talent or makes a big comeback (which is what I am saying he needs to do) it is easy to be dismissed by teams within a season or two. That is just the fact of life of being a MotoGP rider.
As it goes now I agree with you on him being in a different series or on a CRT in a season or two down the line.
I stand corrected on the Stoner analogy. My point is that .... happens to riders' in their careers, many times it is out the riders' hands. Call it fate or whatever but unless one has massive talent or makes a big comeback (which is what I am saying he needs to do) it is easy to be dismissed by teams within a season or two. That is just the fact of life of being a MotoGP rider.
As it goes now I agree with you on him being in a different series or on a CRT in a season or two down the line.
Kronikinsomniak
He had one 'bad' race in 2009 - 14th at the British GP. Every other race in 2009 he finished 4th or better. Which was why he kept his seat.
2008, 2009 and 2010 weren't great years for him - he only scored 13 wins and 28 podiums from 49 starts.
I find it hard to understand how Hayden, with three wins and 28 podiums from 169 starts and only one solitary third place podium a year in 2009, 2010 and 2011 (nothing at all in 2012), manages to keep his seat.
Does he have photos of Gabriele Del Torchio engaged in unnatural acts or something?
He had one 'bad' race in 2009 - 14th at the British GP. Every other race in 2009 he finished 4th or better. Which was why he kept his seat.
2008, 2009 and 2010 weren't great years for him - he only scored 13 wins and 28 podiums from 49 starts.
I find it hard to understand how Hayden, with three wins and 28 podiums from 169 starts and only one solitary third place podium a year in 2009, 2010 and 2011 (nothing at all in 2012), manages to keep his seat.
Does he have photos of Gabriele Del Torchio engaged in unnatural acts or something?
Austin
I know there is a Suzuki tie-up, but would you really want to take on a proven non-competitor if you are relaunching your new bike? How would it look to the bigwigs at Hamamatsu if they invest all this cash and end up behind a kit bike in 16th place? One win and six podiums from 55 starts, 32 of those starts on arguably the best bike in the paddock. He's got to be tainted goods now - Who voluntarily goes to Pramac?
If anyone, they should try and wrest Bautista back from Honda. He is competitive, young and Spanish. And he will fight for wins. They might have to pay him by the dumper-truck, though. Fifth last year, sixth after two (difficult) races. He is the kind of rider a resurgent marque needs, not someone with a history of failure.
I know there is a Suzuki tie-up, but would you really want to take on a proven non-competitor if you are relaunching your new bike? How would it look to the bigwigs at Hamamatsu if they invest all this cash and end up behind a kit bike in 16th place? One win and six podiums from 55 starts, 32 of those starts on arguably the best bike in the paddock. He's got to be tainted goods now - Who voluntarily goes to Pramac?
If anyone, they should try and wrest Bautista back from Honda. He is competitive, young and Spanish. And he will fight for wins. They might have to pay him by the dumper-truck, though. Fifth last year, sixth after two (difficult) races. He is the kind of rider a resurgent marque needs, not someone with a history of failure.
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Kronikinsomniak
You demand he run better than he is running now. Yet you completely ignored the post where even injured Spies is matching what the supposed Greatest of All Time could manage thus far. You didn't quite make the connection. Are you new to the sport, or did you not pay much attention to Spies' season last year, or are you just selectively ignoring that too? Your entire logic is: 'yeah he is injured, yeah I'll downplay a half season of mechanicals, yeah I'll ignore hes on a ...... bike, yeah I'll ignore the facts that Rossi didn't start off any better, I'll just stick to my logic repeating who cares, in this game (which I admit isn’t fair) I'm still going to say he has to do better or get replaced.' Breathtaking.
Well how much better? Maybe a place or two up in the finishing order? How about consistently 9th? Would that be nice enough for you? You say he was dead last of the Ducati's, this was out of four "equal" Ducatis. Last year at this time in the season, VR had got beat by Barbara, who was on a 2nd tier bike to the factory Ducatis (a bike not even close to the factory, what is worse…). Maybe they should have thrown in the towel on VR two events into the season? Oh wait, I know, you're going to tell me he won a bunch of championships, of course ignoring as many have, that once he was on a ...... bike VR struggled to make the top ten for two years (that should give you a clue as to the authenticity of all those prior championships). But ok, I know, you'll ignore it too, because nothing is more consistent than holding steadfast to one's logic despite evidence to the contrary. Which makes your demand he do better rather arbitrary! And you were not even consistent on your take regarding injuries. You smugly declare he is injured and ask rhetorically; "so what?" Then you say something contrary by stating "not saying being injured is a terrible reason". So what are you saying then?
Well then, using your logic, why the hell is Bautista in the series still? Wasn't this the guy who injured himself to bits in the first race of the season, THEN spent the rest of the season crashing and torpedoing people. Where did he end up? Oh yeah, on a bike close to a factory spec on alternate competitive suspension. Yup, you are correct, far from fair as you said, he is rewarded on a competitive bike. Lets just demand he be replace after DNFing half the damn season on a Suzuki, oh but wait, then today we wouldn’t be singing his praises like he has accomplished something by coming last of the satellites. Oh but it looks all so good because he is ahead of all those CRTs, right? But of course, you already admitted riders secure seats that are "far from fair", yet here you are, demanding Spies do better or get tossed out. Just out of curiosity, who would you replace him with? Hey I have an idea, like my wiki bandit BJC suggest, lets replace Spies with Bautista.
You declare "in this sport with limited seats the demands are much different." What can you tell me about these "demands" then? Curious to understand what “demands” you think the teams seek. Because on one side you admit seats are shelled out unmerited (far from fair); admitting they are not given to the best riders. So obviously they are thinking of something other than who you think are the best. Interesting you mentioned Bradley Smith. He got beat by a CRT on what amounts to a podium worthy bike. Yet you used him as an example to disparage injured Spies’ performance? Well…what can I say to point out the irony? Move along, nothing to see here.
You demand he run better than he is running now. Yet you completely ignored the post where even injured Spies is matching what the supposed Greatest of All Time could manage thus far. You didn't quite make the connection. Are you new to the sport, or did you not pay much attention to Spies' season last year, or are you just selectively ignoring that too? Your entire logic is: 'yeah he is injured, yeah I'll downplay a half season of mechanicals, yeah I'll ignore hes on a ...... bike, yeah I'll ignore the facts that Rossi didn't start off any better, I'll just stick to my logic repeating who cares, in this game (which I admit isn’t fair) I'm still going to say he has to do better or get replaced.' Breathtaking.
Well how much better? Maybe a place or two up in the finishing order? How about consistently 9th? Would that be nice enough for you? You say he was dead last of the Ducati's, this was out of four "equal" Ducatis. Last year at this time in the season, VR had got beat by Barbara, who was on a 2nd tier bike to the factory Ducatis (a bike not even close to the factory, what is worse…). Maybe they should have thrown in the towel on VR two events into the season? Oh wait, I know, you're going to tell me he won a bunch of championships, of course ignoring as many have, that once he was on a ...... bike VR struggled to make the top ten for two years (that should give you a clue as to the authenticity of all those prior championships). But ok, I know, you'll ignore it too, because nothing is more consistent than holding steadfast to one's logic despite evidence to the contrary. Which makes your demand he do better rather arbitrary! And you were not even consistent on your take regarding injuries. You smugly declare he is injured and ask rhetorically; "so what?" Then you say something contrary by stating "not saying being injured is a terrible reason". So what are you saying then?
Well then, using your logic, why the hell is Bautista in the series still? Wasn't this the guy who injured himself to bits in the first race of the season, THEN spent the rest of the season crashing and torpedoing people. Where did he end up? Oh yeah, on a bike close to a factory spec on alternate competitive suspension. Yup, you are correct, far from fair as you said, he is rewarded on a competitive bike. Lets just demand he be replace after DNFing half the damn season on a Suzuki, oh but wait, then today we wouldn’t be singing his praises like he has accomplished something by coming last of the satellites. Oh but it looks all so good because he is ahead of all those CRTs, right? But of course, you already admitted riders secure seats that are "far from fair", yet here you are, demanding Spies do better or get tossed out. Just out of curiosity, who would you replace him with? Hey I have an idea, like my wiki bandit BJC suggest, lets replace Spies with Bautista.
You declare "in this sport with limited seats the demands are much different." What can you tell me about these "demands" then? Curious to understand what “demands” you think the teams seek. Because on one side you admit seats are shelled out unmerited (far from fair); admitting they are not given to the best riders. So obviously they are thinking of something other than who you think are the best. Interesting you mentioned Bradley Smith. He got beat by a CRT on what amounts to a podium worthy bike. Yet you used him as an example to disparage injured Spies’ performance? Well…what can I say to point out the irony? Move along, nothing to see here.
Austin
Dr. Gonzo
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BJ.C
I don't think Spies would be their number-one choice if they had their pick of the litter, no. Bautista probably would be a good fit, but he has a contract next season. Who else had any relevant factory experience? Or the past success of Spies? Maybe it makes sense for Crutchlow, but he lacks the relationship and experience. I'd suggest Espargaro's success and development on the ART would make him worth a punt. But Spies would serve as a good mule until the team can find its feet and at that point they can reevaluate him and move on if need be. But I don't think there is a better option for next year.
As to your question, "Who voluntarily goes to Pramac," I've been asking myself the same thing. The guy openly admitted he doesn't enjoy the life of MotoGP, much preferring the paddock in World Supers; he had a great financial offer from BMW; and he had to have been aware of how bad the Ducati is, so trying to prove everyone he belongs here is a losing proposition. The move makes absolutely no sense to me.
I don't think Spies would be their number-one choice if they had their pick of the litter, no. Bautista probably would be a good fit, but he has a contract next season. Who else had any relevant factory experience? Or the past success of Spies? Maybe it makes sense for Crutchlow, but he lacks the relationship and experience. I'd suggest Espargaro's success and development on the ART would make him worth a punt. But Spies would serve as a good mule until the team can find its feet and at that point they can reevaluate him and move on if need be. But I don't think there is a better option for next year.
As to your question, "Who voluntarily goes to Pramac," I've been asking myself the same thing. The guy openly admitted he doesn't enjoy the life of MotoGP, much preferring the paddock in World Supers; he had a great financial offer from BMW; and he had to have been aware of how bad the Ducati is, so trying to prove everyone he belongs here is a losing proposition. The move makes absolutely no sense to me.
Bugger. For some reason I thought he had only gotten a single year. Thanks.
As to Cal - I think he would move for the right money, and a factory head-honcho ride. And if Suzuki can give him some assurances about their development platform and their dedication to investment that may be enough. He only needs to look back at the Vermuelen years to see how poorly Suzuki fared with their R&D.
If he has no better offers by the middle of the season and he is definitely losing his Tech3 seat (they would have to be mad, IMO!) then it may be the best move for him.
I don't know that Crescent served Suzuki well as their designated team, either. I would be more confident if Paul Denning weren't involved, to be honest. He seems to cause ructions wherever he goes. That's not what you need in a team looking to make their mark back in the top class.
I wonder what Francis Blatta is doing....
As to Cal - I think he would move for the right money, and a factory head-honcho ride. And if Suzuki can give him some assurances about their development platform and their dedication to investment that may be enough. He only needs to look back at the Vermuelen years to see how poorly Suzuki fared with their R&D.
If he has no better offers by the middle of the season and he is definitely losing his Tech3 seat (they would have to be mad, IMO!) then it may be the best move for him.
I don't know that Crescent served Suzuki well as their designated team, either. I would be more confident if Paul Denning weren't involved, to be honest. He seems to cause ructions wherever he goes. That's not what you need in a team looking to make their mark back in the top class.
I wonder what Francis Blatta is doing....
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currently wishing the panigale to hell.
thats what you get for the whole being loyal to suzuki/japanese culture thing
batta = hopkins
thats what you get for the whole being loyal to suzuki/japanese culture thing
batta = hopkins
BJ.C
I have known Paul for 30 + years, from his dad owning the Crescent dealership to our racing together in AMCA motocross where we both gained expert status in the same year, He is a good guy but sometimes he doesn't come over very well in interviews and that is vital a the very top level, In all honesty i don't think he will get another chance at the factory job though i wish him well.
3502351367571078
Bugger. For some reason I thought he had only gotten a single year. Thanks.
As to Cal - I think he would move for the right money, and a factory head-honcho ride. And if Suzuki can give him some assurances about their development platform and their dedication to investment that may be enough. He only needs to look back at the Vermuelen years to see how poorly Suzuki fared with their R&D.
If he has no better offers by the middle of the season and he is definitely losing his Tech3 seat (they would have to be mad, IMO!) then it may be the best move for him.
I don't know that Crescent served Suzuki well as their designated team, either. I would be more confident if Paul Denning weren't involved, to be honest. He seems to cause ructions wherever he goes. That's not what you need in a team looking to make their mark back in the top class.
I wonder what Francis Blatta is doing....
I have known Paul for 30 + years, from his dad owning the Crescent dealership to our racing together in AMCA motocross where we both gained expert status in the same year, He is a good guy but sometimes he doesn't come over very well in interviews and that is vital a the very top level, In all honesty i don't think he will get another chance at the factory job though i wish him well.
Austin
Dr. Gonzo
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BJ.C
I think it makes more sense for all parties involved for Cal to go to Ducati than to go to Suzuki. As we've discussed, the Ducati is a career killer, but at least they've shown the ability to be competitive in the past—Capirossi's consistent results on the 990, Bayliss's 2003 season, Gibernau's 2006 season when he wasn't falling out of an ambulance. Whereas Suzuki haven't been competitive in the four-stroke era bar 2007 in the heat of Michelin's meltdown when Suzuki was shod by, surprise, Bridgestone. Normal service resumed the following season. Historically, Ducati is the better option. And if I'm Suzuki, I'd prefer to have someone spearheading my new factory operation who's worked in a factory team before, who knows what's expected in terms of feedback. (I'm not saying Crutchlow doesn't have the development chops, but he's never been in a position to use them bar 2010 when he and Toseland had the R1s in such a mess that it took Rossi's rehab test stint with the team to turn that bike around.)
3502351367571078
Bugger. For some reason I thought he had only gotten a single year. Thanks.
As to Cal - I think he would move for the right money, and a factory head-honcho ride. And if Suzuki can give him some assurances about their development platform and their dedication to investment that may be enough. He only needs to look back at the Vermuelen years to see how poorly Suzuki fared with their R&D.
If he has no better offers by the middle of the season and he is definitely losing his Tech3 seat (they would have to be mad, IMO!) then it may be the best move for him.
I don't know that Crescent served Suzuki well as their designated team, either. I would be more confident if Paul Denning weren't involved, to be honest. He seems to cause ructions wherever he goes. That's not what you need in a team looking to make their mark back in the top class.
I wonder what Francis Blatta is doing....
I think it makes more sense for all parties involved for Cal to go to Ducati than to go to Suzuki. As we've discussed, the Ducati is a career killer, but at least they've shown the ability to be competitive in the past—Capirossi's consistent results on the 990, Bayliss's 2003 season, Gibernau's 2006 season when he wasn't falling out of an ambulance. Whereas Suzuki haven't been competitive in the four-stroke era bar 2007 in the heat of Michelin's meltdown when Suzuki was shod by, surprise, Bridgestone. Normal service resumed the following season. Historically, Ducati is the better option. And if I'm Suzuki, I'd prefer to have someone spearheading my new factory operation who's worked in a factory team before, who knows what's expected in terms of feedback. (I'm not saying Crutchlow doesn't have the development chops, but he's never been in a position to use them bar 2010 when he and Toseland had the R1s in such a mess that it took Rossi's rehab test stint with the team to turn that bike around.)
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bluegreen
start here...
http://motomatters.com/news/2010/07/29/toseland_surprised_by_press_stories_afte.html
start here...
http://motomatters.com/news/2010/07/29/toseland_surprised_by_press_stories_afte.html
Austin
Dr. Gonzo
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L8Braker
I still don't buy Toseland's claim that he'd been providing the same feedback as Rossi all year. Perhaps it's what he wanted to say, but I can't fathom a scenario in which Toseland clearly articulated those same ideas and was ignored.
I still don't buy Toseland's claim that he'd been providing the same feedback as Rossi all year. Perhaps it's what he wanted to say, but I can't fathom a scenario in which Toseland clearly articulated those same ideas and was ignored.
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Toselands a ....... ... and his music sucks a sack of cocks..
Should have named the band Red Gate
Should have named the band Red Gate
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thedeal
Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I have wished all hell on Paul Denning (as only an internet jockey such as myself could), now I will reconsider. Do you remember the race where Capirossi was hurt in FP1 and Spies was there and was asked to substitute? The weather was all crap and Spies thought better of it and passed. Denning express a sentiment that Spies had bitched out, which I felt wasn't fair. Since then I held a grudge (as only an internet jockey can). I blamed Denning for many of Suzuki's woes (me being a Hopper fan and all) but after reading an article about Suzuki Co. MO on racing, I admit, I thought perhaps I had been a bit harsh on Paul Denning. (Of course, all from reading interview and videos and such, as would internet jockeys such as myself condemn these guys). Now I feel like a .....
Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I have wished all hell on Paul Denning (as only an internet jockey such as myself could), now I will reconsider. Do you remember the race where Capirossi was hurt in FP1 and Spies was there and was asked to substitute? The weather was all crap and Spies thought better of it and passed. Denning express a sentiment that Spies had bitched out, which I felt wasn't fair. Since then I held a grudge (as only an internet jockey can). I blamed Denning for many of Suzuki's woes (me being a Hopper fan and all) but after reading an article about Suzuki Co. MO on racing, I admit, I thought perhaps I had been a bit harsh on Paul Denning. (Of course, all from reading interview and videos and such, as would internet jockeys such as myself condemn these guys). Now I feel like a .....
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