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Superbikeplanet & Dennis Noyes comment on the Japanese factories' various philosophies. Was a great read.
BTW, Jumkie you're a ....... legend ... but a very nice rain jacket says says J Lo is getting a title on a Duc!

Soup :: From '04: The Best of Dennis Noyes :: 09-04-2014
Here's an abbreviated summary...

I once had the pleasure of hearing now retired HRC racing boss Youichi Oguma speak through a real translator and not through one of the company minders usually assigned to filter out Oguma's more magnificent turns of phrase to try and make him sound like he represented a factory that raced for all the usual, commercial reasons.

But what happened that day in Holland was that the HRC translator was caught in the Dutch TT traffic on a Friday morning and the intimate little press conference went ahead without her when a well-intentioned Japanese-American was brought in to translate.

I will never forget what he said at the highest and most lyrical point of his flight:

"The other manufactures do not know why they race. They race because they understand the conviction of Honda and they follow the Honda and sometimes they even pass, but when they pass they cannot lead because they have no vision. Then Honda passes again and they are grateful again to follow because they know Honda sees the light of discovery that they cannot see."

And then the official translator came in looking horrified as she heard the last words of all that in English. She took over and although Oguma-san seemed to speak with the same evangelic zeal, the words were not the same, ever again.

But that brief glimpse, that sound bite of Honda's true internal monologue, convinced me that, at the most important level in the company culture, Honda really is the NASA of motorcycle racing.

And Ducati, and to a certain extent, under-funded Aprilia, are "dreamers" in the best sense of the word.

Yamaha: "Pure marketing."
Suzuki: "Crazy people racing."
Kawasaki: "Rich boys racing."
Honda: "NASA."

I asked him how European manufacturers were regarded and he said, "Dream racing."

 
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This jibes well with an article link I posted on here within the past couple of months that was on Motorsport Magazine's website. They discussed Honda's philosophy in grand prix motorcycle racing, and that everything they do is about testing engineering philosophies and learning from success and failures. The day they cannot do that is the day they will stop racing.

They believe the bike makes the rider, not the other way around.

It's true for the most part...the only exception to that belief generally speaking, was Stoner on the Ducati. Rossi needed superior bikes at both HRC and Yamaha to win. When he finally didn't get that at Ducati, he looked ordinary.
 
Honda spends the most on MotoGP tech, but trickles down the least to their production bikes. Prior to the spec-ECU, the RCV arguably had the best electronics on the grid. However, the CBR still has no traction control. Ducati, Yamaha, and Kawasaki offer more sophisticated bikes to the general public.
 
They believe the bike makes the rider, not the other way around.
It's true for the most part...

I totally disagree. The Honda is performing terribly, despite having MM.
Pedrosa is barley doing anything on the bike.
Cruchlow lacks consistency, but he's not bad enough to crash 4/5 races.
The rest are sucking
Nobody could do anything with the customer bike.
 
Honda spends the most on MotoGP tech, but trickles down the least to their production bikes. Prior to the spec-ECU, the RCV arguably had the best electronics on the grid. However, the CBR still has no traction control. Ducati, Yamaha, and Kawasaki offer more sophisticated bikes to the general public.

This post is so right (and sad)

but I'm holding out hope 2017 Nicky wins SBK on the V4 Honda!!!!! Even though he can't beat his teammate in the Dry :(
 
I totally disagree. The Honda is performing terribly, despite having MM.
Pedrosa is barley doing anything on the bike.
Cruchlow lacks consistency, but he's not bad enough to crash 4/5 races.
The rest are sucking
Nobody could do anything with the customer bike.

Honda is pursuing something on the engineering side with the RCV that is incomprehensible to most fans of GP who buy into the adage of win now, win always. Winning is a byproduct of their engineering exercise. Understanding Honda's philosophy is more important as this is how Honda has done it for as long as they have built grand prix motorcycles. They do not build them with public understanding involved. They've designed some clunkers in the past, but when they get it right, their bikes are unbeatable.

Regarding the mention of Cal Cuntslow, he really is bad enough to crash 4/5 races. Pedrosa hasn't done .... since 2012, not sure why anyone thinks he might be doing something more.
 
Honda spends the most on MotoGP tech, but trickles down the least to their production bikes. Prior to the spec-ECU, the RCV arguably had the best electronics on the grid. However, the CBR still has no traction control. Ducati, Yamaha, and Kawasaki offer more sophisticated bikes to the general public.

The superbikes have nothing to do with GP, and everything to do with WSBK.

Honda doesn't give a .... about WSBK, that's why the CBR1000RR is lacking behind the manufacturers you list. We're in May, and no one has any idea if Honda's promise to build a newly designed CBR1000RR for WSBK is going to happen for 2017 or not. Nicky Hayden went to ride the Honda under the expectation they would finally redesign the bike. Yet it has become more uncertain if they have any interest in doing so.
 
Honda is pursuing something on the engineering side with the RCV that is incomprehensible to most fans of GP who buy into the adage of win now, win always. Winning is a byproduct of their engineering exercise. Understanding Honda's philosophy is more important as this is how Honda has done it for as long as they have built grand prix motorcycles. They do not build them with public understanding involved. They've designed some clunkers in the past, but when they get it right, their bikes are unbeatable.

Regarding the mention of Cal Cuntslow, he really is bad enough to crash 4/5 races. Pedrosa hasn't done .... since 2012, not sure why anyone thinks he might be doing something more.
Fair points
 


"The other manufactures do not know why they race. They race because they understand the conviction of Honda and they follow the Honda and sometimes they even pass, but when they pass they cannot lead because they have no vision. Then Honda passes again and they are grateful again to follow because they know Honda sees the light of discovery that they cannot see."



But that brief glimpse, that sound bite of Honda's true internal monologue, convinced me that, at the most important level in the company culture, Honda really is the NASA of motorcycle racing.

And Ducati, and to a certain extent, under-funded Aprilia, are "dreamers" in the best sense of the word.

Yamaha: "Pure marketing."
Suzuki: "Crazy people racing."
Kawasaki: "Rich boys racing."
Honda: "NASA."

I asked him how European manufacturers were regarded and he said, "Dream racing."




This is very much Honda philosophy. Always have & always will

From the man himself: Soichiro Honda Quotes

Success can be achieved only through repeated failure and introspection. In fact, success represents 1 percent of your work which results only from the 99 percent that is called failure.
Many people dream of success. To me success can be achieved only through repeated failure and introspection. In fact, success represents 1 percent of your work which results only from the 99 percent that is called failure.
Success can be achieved only through repeated failure and introspection. Soichiro Honda


Success is 99 percent failure. Soichiro Honda



These two quotes brings us to this >> Why Honda never take the easy road | Motor Sport Magazine


If you hire only those people you understand, the company will never get people better than you are. Always remember that you often find outstanding people among those you don't particularly like. Soichiro Honda


I could not understand how it could move under its own power. And when it had driven past me, without even thinking why I found myself chasing it down the road, as hard as I could run. Soichiro Honda


The value of life can be measured by how many times your soul has been deeply stirred. Soichiro Honda


Read more here > Soichiro Honda Quotes
 
I totally disagree. The Honda is performing terribly, despite having MM.
Pedrosa is barley doing anything on the bike.
Cruchlow lacks consistency, but he's not bad enough to crash 4/5 races.
The rest are sucking
Nobody could do anything with the customer bike.

To understand Honda. You need to dig into Honda's history right back to Soichiro Honda. They dont see victory like yamaha. You don't get 50% of all global motorcycle/scooter sales by just winning. If that was the case yamaha would have that 50%. Instead they share the remaining 50% with every other brand. Even putting the latest greatest tech on their bikes, Honda still out sells them.
 
Great thread Clarky, good to have you posting.

I promise a triumphant return of the Motegi rain jack back to its rightful owner soon.

Honda=NASA
Ducati=Dreamers

Spot on!



Content Warning: Look ....... (.)(.)
 
Tells you everything you need to know about Yamaha and why they are beholden to Rossi.

Honda's philosophy is why they would never allow Rossi to sit on the RCV ever again.

Yamaha only cares about marketing...which in turn means they only care about profits, rather than engineering excellence.
 
Tells you everything you need to know about Yamaha and why they are beholden to Rossi.

Honda's philosophy is why they would never allow Rossi to sit on the RCV ever again.

Yamaha only cares about marketing...which in turn means they only care about profits, rather than engineering excellence.

Wow, Yamaha is doing really well for a company that only cares about marketing.

Thread only made it 11 posts before JPS came in mentioning Rossi.:giggle:
 
Wow, Yamaha is doing really well for a company that only cares about marketing.

Thread only made it 11 posts before JPS came in mentioning Rossi.:giggle:



Yeah in comparison to minus motogp?



Yeah he pointed out a fact. flossi says the rider is more important than the bike. How did that worked out for him at Ducati?
 
Tells you everything you need to know about Yamaha and why they are beholden to Rossi.

Honda's philosophy is why they would never allow Rossi to sit on the RCV ever again.

Yamaha only cares about marketing...which in turn means they only care about profits, rather than engineering excellence.


Maybe Honda just want a focal point in their organization for struggling to achieve perfection and to learn about ALL aspects of that process, including engineering and personal struggle and of course winning. Then they can use the learnings and the example to inspire everybody involved in their value chain and aggressively and continuously develop the culture of their organization.

To me, that's immensely valuable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Great Stuff
This is exactly why I laugh when people say that Ducati will someday be competitive. Honda isnt NASA. Honda is God
 
Maybe Honda just want a focal point in their organization for struggling to achieve perfection and to learn about ALL aspects of that process, including engineering and personal struggle and of course winning. Then they can use the learnings and the example to inspire everybody involved in their value chain and aggressively and continuously develop the culture of their organization.

To me, that's immensely valuable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree!!! And that is why this quote rings the best "Success can be achieved only through repeated failure and introspection. In fact, success represents 1 percent of your work which results only from the 99 percent that is called failure"

All of the their executives comes up thru the culture of their organization. This is the reason why they don't drift too far from their core beliefs.
 
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Yeah in comparison to minus motogp?



Yeah he pointed out a fact. flossi says the rider is more important than the bike. How did that worked out for him at Ducati?

Even outside of MotoGP, Yamaha makes good motorcycles.

I believe Rossi/Burgess was using the 80/20 ratio when talking about the importance of the rider. If it's only the bike, why did Ducati want Lorenzo and why would the RCV be a failure if it weren't for Marquez?
 
Even outside of MotoGP, Yamaha makes good motorcycles.

I believe Rossi/Burgess was using the 80/20 ratio when talking about the importance of the rider. If it's only the bike, why did Ducati want Lorenzo and why would the RCV be a failure if it weren't for Marquez?

The new fangled, gizmo'd, Yamaha R1 has a hard time handling the Kawasaki, Ducati, and even Fireblade in WSBK.

Regarding Lorenzo, it's because Ducati think differently than Honda.

Listen, bottom line is, you're not winning a title without a quality bike in GP. Does the rider matter in some instances? Sure. But there are very very few riders who have ever mattered as much as, if not more than the bike. Rossi is not one of those truly elite riders as the Ducati stint showed this.
 
Well, if success is 99 percent failure, I would certainly say Ducati are getting pretty close.

They will be competitive, Audi will not let their prized motorcycle manufacturer fail, and the pockets are deep, not Honda deep, but deep enough.
Its hard to beat Japanese and to a certain extent German efficiency, but Ferrari have done it over and over again.
 

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